Do You Dream (Spiritual) Dreams?

[HiJolly]

Explain to me then, how do you "experience" anything while unconscious?

Tell me this, Ss: When we are unconscious, what is the sub-consciouos mind doing, and how do we know it?

How much does science know about consciousness?

HJ

[Seminarysnoozer]

Tell me this, Ss: When we are unconscious, what is the sub-consciouos mind doing, and how do we know it?

How much does science know about consciousness?

HJ

Science knows .07% of all there is to know about it??? What does that have to do with anything?

A bit of the subconscious mind is revealed when people have psychosis, when they are drunk and when they are dreaming. Hows that?

The subconscious remains outside of consciousness for a reason. Just like I wouldn't want to see every little calculation this computer is making pop up on the screen. It would be detracting, confusing and slow the function down.

[HiJolly]

Science knows .07% of all there is to know about it??? What does that have to do with anything?

A bit of the subconscious mind is revealed when people have psychosis, when they are drunk and when they are dreaming. Hows that?

The subconscious remains outside of consciousness for a reason. Just like I wouldn't want to see every little calculation this computer is making pop up on the screen. It would be detracting, confusing and slow the function down.

OK. Does any group of people consciously use their sub-conscious minds on a regular, planned for basis? How can they do this productively?

Answer for the first q: baseball players. and mystics. and some others.

The fact is, anyone who knows what they are doing (or who follows the instructions of someone who knows) can 'train' their subconscious mind.

I know what to do to train my mind to remember my nightly dreams. It was quite interesting to prove the concept.

HJ

[LeKook]

The fact is, anyone who knows what they are doing (or who follows the instructions of someone who knows) can 'train' their subconscious mind.

I know what to do to train my mind to remember my nightly dreams. It was quite interesting to prove the concept.

HJ

Agreed... I remember most of my dreams because I taught myself how, along with how to become lucid during dreaming. It's actually pretty easy, just takes some effort and repetition.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Satan has dominion over everything on the Earth (at the moment), including our body which is made of the dust of this Earth even though the Lord maintains ownership and will come back to rule.

I believe we are left to ourselves when we do not submit to God and almost always that means we fall into temptation under the power of Satan.

Matthew 4:8-10 " 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

One interesting point here is the following: If you read the Joseph Smith Translation of these verses it was not the power of Satan but the Holy Spirit that took Christ to these different locations and showed him this vision of the kingdoms of the world.

[jayanna]

I have had instructive dreams, predictive dreams, and warning dreams. I have also had visions, and have been taken places to see things... Some of my instructive dreams have been the same situation played out over and over again, and I make decisions, but the cycle continues until I make the correct decision. I usually wake from this state sweating and exhausted, but wiser. If there are others out there who have experienced these things, please know that you are not alone.

They are usually for my sake exclusively, except possibly the predictive dreams...I'm not exactly sure about the purpose of them. Maybe they are to help me understand the weight that the prophets carry in knowing things, but people just don't want to believe them until it is too late.

[HiJolly]

I have had instructive dreams, predictive dreams, and warning dreams. I have also had visions, and have been taken places to see things... Some of my instructive dreams have been the same situation played out over and over again, and I make decisions, but the cycle continues until I make the correct decision. I usually wake from this state sweating and exhausted, but wiser. If there are others out there who have experienced these things, please know that you are not alone.

They are usually for my sake exclusively, except possibly the predictive dreams...I'm not exactly sure about the purpose of them. Maybe they are to help me understand the weight that the prophets carry in knowing things, but people just don't want to believe them until it is too late.

It is a difficult gift, to know something will happen to a person, or a group of people. Especially when nothing can be done for them.

I think it may be training for when we are Gods, and looking at our children, and knowing that we cannot interfere.

HiJolly

[pntkl]

Satan has dominion over everything on the Earth (at the moment), including our body which is made of the dust of this Earth even though the Lord maintains ownership and will come back to rule. Right now, though, Christ has not come back yet to rule over all things of the Earth. Luckily he does not have power over our spirit, unless given.

Matt 4:8-10 " 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

...

And John 12 " 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." Jesus called Satan the prince of this world.

Paul speaks of the corruption of the flesh and carnality in many examples. We also know that the natural man is an enemy to God. If man does nothing, what comes natural, then the body is subject to more control by Satan. It is only through righteous action and constant effort that we break free from that control. ... In a state of unconsciousness, of course, one cannot do that, this is why we stay away from alcohol, for example.

Luke 4:1-37 

Some will say, God must have let Satan have power over Yeshua, because it is written, "All these things will I give thee." However, there is a great misunderstanding. What isn't written, nor well understood is this temptation was requisite, for our Savior's worthiness, for our Atonement. That is, that prior to the temptation, through great faith and by that, God gifted this man unimaginable ability. Even so much, that Satan did not have to offer anything that this man did not already have. Yet, also not well understood is that by way of temptation, God left him for a time, to let his own faith stand as a testament, unto itself, with the Father's hand removed. In that there was not acceptance of the offer, who we now know as Jesus greatly pleased our Father in heaven, that he did not give to a temptation almost all men, even those considered to have great faith, would fall victim to.

Job 1:1-22 

Job 33:1-33 

Job 38:1-41 

Job 39:1-30 

Job 40:1-24 

Job 41:1-34 

Job 42:1-17 

Elihu knew the truth, that Understand, not many men can stand refinement, once put under the test, at the request of those we call the sons of God, and/or Satan. Yet, if one does so, not even Satan has power over the flesh, nor over the spirit, if it is the Father's Will. Satan opposes man, has no faith in the plan of salvation, nor in His Son. Even those that once walked with the Father, some have lost their faith. Yet, they are purposed, in their convictions, that they may see that the Father is above all, that in their time, they also may humble themselves, not that they will. The Creator of All Things has power over all the heaven, "Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine." It isn't Satan's power, that is the Truth. It is God's, that even Satan must petition on behalf of those faithful servants, that he may test their faith. To believe otherwise is to believe a lie, to be under a test of one's own faith; if not already under a signed warrant.

John 12:23-50 

Just as Job was tested, even so was our Savior. Afterwards, being taken again by the Spirit--it is no longer correct, to refer to him, except by Him, the He with surety was to fulfill the final test of His faith, when those forced to think signed an affidavit against Jesus, on the 'Mount of Evil Council'. What is carnal is the love of pleasures, to love your life of the world, which is to lose sight of your life eternal. Divers weights and divers measures.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-22 

Alma 32:1-43 

I bear my testimony, that my Father does speak to all men, in dreams and visions, when the moment is preordained. Even for a prophet, to know it, isn't in that same moment. For all things there IS a reason. What greater faith is there, that a father is heard when what is taught is not yet seen? Do the wise question why it is forbidden to play with fire? Only the foolish do so, often to their dismay. One could say, correctly, that the greatest faith is one that has been tested. To believe on Him, without seeing, how greater is your reward in heaven! I say these things, in the name of Jesus, the Christ, Amen.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[Seminarysnoozer]

Luke 4:1-37*

Some will say, God must have let Satan have power over Yeshua, because it is written, "All these things will I give thee." However, there is a great misunderstanding. What isn't written, nor well understood is this temptation was requisite, for our Savior's worthiness, for our Atonement. That is, that prior to the temptation, through great faith and by that, God gifted this man unimaginable ability. Even so much, that Satan did not have to offer anything that this man did not already have. Yet, also not well understood is that by way of temptation, God left him for a time, to let his own faith stand as a testament, unto itself, with the Father's hand removed. In that there was not acceptance of the offer, who we now know as Jesus greatly pleased our Father in heaven, that he did not give to a temptation almost all men, even those considered to have great faith, would fall victim to.

Job 1:1-22*

Job 33:1-33*

Job 38:1-41*

Job 39:1-30*

Job 40:1-24*

Job 41:1-34*

Job 42:1-17*

Elihu knew the truth, that Understand, not many men can stand refinement, once put under the test, at the request of those we call the sons of God, and/or Satan. Yet, if one does so, not even Satan has power over the flesh, nor over the spirit, if it is the Father's Will. Satan opposes man, has no faith in the plan of salvation, nor in His Son. Even those that once walked with the Father, some have lost their faith. Yet, they are purposed, in their convictions, that they may see that the Father is above all, that in their time, they also may humble themselves, not that they will. The Creator of All Things has power over all the heaven, "Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine." It isn't Satan's power, that is the Truth. It is God's, that even Satan must petition on behalf of those faithful servants, that he may test their faith. To believe otherwise is to believe a lie, to be under a test of one's own faith; if not already under a signed warrant.

John 12:23-50*

Just as Job was tested, even so was our Savior. Afterwards, being taken again by the Spirit--it is no longer correct, to refer to him, except by Him, the He with surety was to fulfill the final test of His faith, when those forced to think signed an affidavit against Jesus, on the 'Mount of Evil Council'. What is carnal is the love of pleasures, to love your life of the world, which is to lose sight of your life eternal. Divers weights and divers measures.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-22*

Alma 32:1-43*

I bear my testimony, that my Father does speak to all men, in dreams and visions, when the moment is preordained. Even for a prophet, to know it, isn't in that same moment. For all things there IS a reason. What greater faith is there, that a father is heard when what is taught is not yet seen? Do the wise question why it is forbidden to play with fire? Only the foolish do so, often to their dismay. One could say, correctly, that the greatest faith is one that has been tested. To believe on Him, without seeing, how greater is your reward in heaven! I say these things, in the name of Jesus, the Christ, Amen.

Love,

T.J. Wood

Not sure what any of this has to do with what I said. I agree with pretty much everything you said there except the testimony given that the Father speaks "to all men, in dreams ...". I am not sure how you would know how God speaks to all men.

Dreaming is a function of the body. We have no knowledge that it is a function of the spirit. If anyone wants to say that God communicates through the body without talking to the spirit, that is a doctrine that I am not familiar with. I am not sure why people insist such things.

Why do people believe they have been abducted by aliens? Are they lying? Most of the time not, they actually believe it. How can that be? Because the brain makes up memories, it makes up feelings, experiences, images, dreams, etc. that the brain takes as real. It is sometimes hard to distinguish what is real versus what is made up by the imaginative parts of the brain. In other words, not everything a person experiences in this life really happened. This is a fact. Not a theory. This is part of the corruption of the body (the brain to be exact). This is what sets up the test to allow us to have the agency to choose between passions of the body versus passions of the spirit. To discern between the two is the test. If a person does not acknowledge that there are two sets of passions, then, I would guess, the test is already over for that person.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is a difficult gift, to know something will happen to a person, or a group of people. Especially when nothing can be done for them.

I think it may be training for when we are Gods, and looking at our children, and knowing that we cannot interfere.

HiJolly

Despair and helplessness are tools of Satan. God does not want us to feel those things or anything like it. He has always taught hope and a positive outlook. I doubt God would try to teach us that it is okay to have a lack of hope for any situation. I can't see how that would be a useful lesson.

[HiJolly]

Despair and helplessness are tools of Satan. God does not want us to feel those things or anything like it. He has always taught hope and a positive outlook. I doubt God would try to teach us that it is okay to have a lack of hope for any situation. I can't see how that would be a useful lesson.

despair & helplessness are not what I'm talking about. Sometimes I wonder at you.

HJ

[pntkl]

My reference to Elihu's statement on God speaking to men by way of dreaming is based on a certainty, for I have been so blessed and had also asked for permission of it, from our Father, before I responded. Even though it is that, "From the mud man came, to it he will return;" in no way does that mean our Father is limited in His means of communications, by way we expect them.

To be faithful so as to have discernment between hallucinations and fanciful dreams from purposed dreams and visions is to be validated in sanity. Noah certainly was hesitant of hearing the world would be submerged, when the flood was foretold; why shouldn't he have been? Yet, it was known to the Father, that as a faithful servant, he would walk in the way of righteousness.

The importance of God's communication with us isn't always for purposes of a physical manifestation. What limitation should He have, if even our bodies are a Temple; in which our spirit dwells? And by what merit should one reconcile modern day understanding with our Creator's ancient undertaking? I say, for surety, modern understanding, by itself, it has only a partial record with understanding our Father. Such things are here today, gone tomorrow; yet the Father remains. Dreams that are solely a function of ordinary processes, as believable as they may be, are not made manifest esse quam videri, except in delusion. The Holy Ghost however, He will have manifest in whichever way pleases Him or speaks to us as He desires. To recognize what is and is not of this world is to be blessed by Him.

[HiJolly]

pntkl,

I have to say that it is not easy for me to read your posts (my ADD?) but I have really appreciated them. I like what you have to say.

HiJolly

[pntkl]

Could be my ADD mixing with yours...

[Seminarysnoozer]

pntkl,

I have to say that it is not easy for me to read your posts (my ADD?) but I have really appreciated them. I like what you have to say.

HiJolly

If I read his posts with a southern twang, they kind of make sense.

(... I sense lawyer speech too, but I could be wrong.)

Edited April 25, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Seminarysnoozer]

What limitation should He have, if even our bodies are a Temple; in which our spirit dwells?

I don't know if I fully understand why but we do tend to believe that corruption (which is the state of our current body, even if we call it a "temple") could not stand the presence of God. This is why He sends messengers, angels, visions to leaders and communicates personally through the Holy Ghost. There are many references that the Holy Ghost communicates directly to the spirit. I am not aware of any references of the Holy Ghost communicating directly to the body and not the spirit. When the body is kept pure and clean then the communications received from the Holy Ghost are more easily recognized. Even then, the body makes that process like a telephone wire with a bunch of static (at least for most of us). Messages from the Holy Ghost require listening very carefully to the still small voice that would not be aided by being half conscious or in a delirium or the distracting processes of the active REM state any more than it would help to listen to the spirit by being in the middle of a rock concert.

Jesus Christ didn't ask the apostles to help in the time of His need for spiritual support by falling asleep. He did the opposite, asked them to not fall asleep.

[pntkl]

Seminarysnoozer,

John 20:11-23 

You are correct, that if God's physical presence were before the earth, it would be obliterated in His presence. Although hidden away, most of what is taught about the Spirit is correct, albeit an incomplete knowledge, for this knowledge is heavenly. What proceeds from the Spirit also proceeds from His Son, even the Father Himself. There are further truths, to be known by the faithful, but their time is not yet present.

:) :) :)

Love,

T.J. Wood

[Seminarysnoozer]

There are further truths, to be known by the faithful, but their time is not yet present.

:) :) :)

Love,

T.J. Wood

Thanks,

In what context do you make the above statement? Do you mean after death and resurrection, further truths are to be known?

Other than that, I am not sure how "further truths" than what is known from the fullness of the gospel would aid the saints any more. Like you said, its not what we have but what we give. And if any "further truths" were given, that only means that we have to give that much more. Where much is given much is expected. But the "further truths" in and of themselves in this life do not count as any sort of reward, only more responsibility from which we will be judged whether we are good stewards or not. We are supposed to be tested in a fallen state. The testing in the full-truth-knowing state already took place which is called the first estate. You and I and everyone else here already passed that test. No need to take the test again.

[pntkl]

Matthew 11:25-30 

Doctrine and Covenants 1:7-9 

Doctrine and Covenants 45:15-75 

Doctrine and Covenants 76:5-10 

Articles of Faith 1:9 

Truths about the Spirit, and given through the Spirit are certainly not fully revealed to the faithful, in this day. Some precede death and resurrection. Others are preceding and through His Coming. With it--He will reveal many things locked away. Where we were once born of intelligence and in spirit; things revealed in the flesh, for what are His purposes, surely they aren't only burdens to bear. His yoke is easy and His burdens are light.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Matthew 11:25-30*

Doctrine and Covenants 1:7-9*

Doctrine and Covenants 45:15-75*

Doctrine and Covenants 76:5-10*

Articles of Faith 1:9*

Truths about the Spirit, and given through the Spirit are certainly not fully revealed to the faithful, in this day. Some precede death and resurrection. Others are preceding and through His Coming. With it--He will reveal many things locked away. Where we were once born of intelligence and in spirit; things revealed in the flesh, for what are His purposes, surely they aren't only burdens to bear. His yoke is easy and His burdens are light.

? that didn't really answer my question, as far as I can tell.

[HiJolly]

Thanks,

In what context do you make the above statement? Do you mean after death and resurrection, further truths are to be known?

If I may be so bold, pntkl says 'yes, but also today and through the millenium as well' to that question.

Other than that, I am not sure how "further truths" than what is known from the fullness of the gospel would aid the saints any more.

Then you have a lot yet to learn about the Gospel. As do we all. In this life.

#9: We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

HJ

[Seminarysnoozer]

If I may be so bold, pntkl says 'yes, but also today and through the millenium as well' to that question.

Then you have a lot yet to learn about the Gospel. As do we all. In this life.

#9: We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

HJ

I am sorry if that didn't come across as I wanted it to. I misspoke. Thanks for the correction. I had to write a quick response (as I am now) for lack of time. What I was trying to say was more in relation to how that would help the saints, in terms of passing this life's test. The statement wasn't to say that more truths can't be or won't be revealed. I did have in that sentence "to aid the saints" (meaning that individual person receiving a message through a "dream"), so that is the context. The point is that one's level of education about the doctrine is not the measure of salvation and therefore not a primary goal for salvation. There are many scriptures that also point towards the learned man will have a difficult time entering the Kingdom of God just like the rich man. But it is not the learning itself, it is the love of learning worldly facts and information that comes with it a sense of building oneself up above another, just like money and its potential for pride. I think we have to take a similar approach to "discovering mysteries" if it is not for the building of the Kingdom of God but for perceived personal advancement.

Of course I believe in the 9th Article of Faith and especially as it says in the article, truths related to the Kingdom of God. Truths related to the doctrine of the Kingdom of God on Earth are likely not going to come from personal revelation in a dream to an individual saint.

As Elder Christofferson explains; "In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “we believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9). This is to say that while there is much we do not yet know, the truths and doctrine we have received have come and will continue to come by divine revelation."

I am not sure that truths about the doctrine are revealed through a member of the church who does not have the keys to receive such truths, which is not a function of one's faithfulness as pntkl was suggesting but more of God's will to deliver it when needed for the building of the Kingdom.

[HiJolly]

I am sorry if that didn't come across as I wanted it to. I misspoke. Thanks for the correction. I had to write a quick response (as I am now) for lack of time. What I was trying to say was more in relation to how that would help the saints, in terms of passing this life's test. The statement wasn't to say that more truths can't be or won't be revealed. I did have in that sentence "to aid the saints" (meaning that individual person receiving a message through a "dream"), so that is the context. The point is that one's level of education about the doctrine is not the measure of salvation and therefore not a primary goal for salvation. There are many scriptures that also point towards the learned man will have a difficult time entering the Kingdom of God just like the rich man. But it is not the learning itself, it is the love of learning worldly facts and information that comes with it a sense of building oneself up above another, just like money and its potential for pride. I think we have to take a similar approach to "discovering mysteries" if it is not for the building of the Kingdom of God but for perceived personal advancement.

Of course I believe in the 9th Article of Faith and especially as it says in the article, truths related to the Kingdom of God. Truths related to the doctrine of the Kingdom of God on Earth are likely not going to come from personal revelation in a dream to an individual saint.

As Elder Christofferson explains; "In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “we believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9). This is to say that while there is much we do not yet know, the truths and doctrine we have received have come and will continue to come by divine revelation."

I am not sure that truths about the doctrine are revealed through a member of the church who does not have the keys to receive such truths, which is not a function of one's faithfulness as pntkl was suggesting but more of God's will to deliver it when needed for the building of the Kingdom.

Well, I hesitate to engage you on this. I understand where you're coming from, and I don't really want to get into a debate. This last interchange with super-cool phil has just about worn me out. But there are some things you need to hear concerning the individual and the institution.

I'm not going to lay out dozens of scriptures. Nor quote dozens of wise sayings by Church leaders. I'm too tired for that.

I would like you to consider a few things that are very clear to me.

1. Jesus saved individuals. He taught individuals. The only reason He set up a Church, was to continue the work of saving individuals after His departing.

2. It's just like the Sabbath is made for man teaching. The Church (or, Kingdom of God) is made to assist man in his pursuit of exaltation. That's it.

3. ZION exists only when *individuals* become Christlike, and one in God.

4. The articles of faith primarily concern individuals. The Gospel is 100% about individual development. The Church, not so much, though it does facilitate the process. And that's why it exists.

5. After the commencement of Church correlation, many members have lost sight of this. It is a tragedy.

6. Recently (in the last year or less) I have heard two Church leaders make profound statements that emphasize the individual responsibility to obtain exaltation. We'll hear more in the near future, I'm hoping. Here's just one:

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/seminary-centennial-broadcast/2012/02?lang=eng&vid=1414473431001&pkey=AQ~~,AAABJMwIxCk~,V-s4Hivdj0tPNypCoK3-U7EDiMwrZ90Q&pid=1302760218001

President Packer. Especially note his statements between 11:28 and 12:12 in the broadcast. When I heard it in the fireside, I felt like jumping up and cheering. You go, President Packer!

BTW, I know this doesn't affect you, but all mystics know well the paradox of the one and the many. If you want to research it, it may benefit you.

HiJolly

[pntkl]

I am not sure that truths about the doctrine are revealed through a member of the church who does not have the keys to receive such truths, which is not a function of one's faithfulness as pntkl was suggesting but more of God's will to deliver it when needed for the building of the Kingdom.

The suggestion isn't that the output of faithful function is endowment of keys. That His truth can be give by one to another, it is an output of the function of our servitude, accepting His input. Those of a worthy faith receive His truths as input and outputs them the same; uncorrupted. By that is how we are even receptive to His Word, for when it is purposed by the Godhead, even when one truth or another was yet revealed. I've heard a lot of talk about keys and authority lately. Truth be told, there is but one full Authority on this matter, the Head of the Church, who is our Savior; the only begotten Son who is in whole agreement with the Father, and the Father who is in whole agreement with the Son.

Through the structure of the Priesthood, the callings it pertains to and effectuates, these keys are leased to those in myriad leadership roles, male and female; in the position of which the Church has need of their utility. These leases are binding contracts, of which no man or woman is signed to under duress. If there is a falling away, this lease is broken, before the Father, His Son, the Spirit, and not excluding the Host--no matter what man takes offense. During states of apostasy, these keys are leased to no man, for they are not of this world, rather of this Kingdom come, with no want or need from the former, when it does. Neither is this lease permanent for the majority of callings, in the mortal; with the expiration of term for callings thereof, they must be relinquished to who the Body finds in agreement of, as predecessor [when one is necessitated].

There are some that have come to believe that if you are a lessee only by washing and anointment, a woman, or a man unknown to men of Priesthood conferment, that this individual must be lacking His entitlement, less worthy or less prepared than the elect of men, to be benefactors or deliverers of ordinances proceeding from the Father. Truly, at the feast, when one brother or sister stands next to their peers, while the least kneels to the King, not with fear or trembling, rather by decree of Law: those least before Him will be asked to stand free, while defiant beasts are chained and sent away: sieved only later to be measured in refinement. Lacking the latter confinement, the greatest key, that beholden to a missionary, it is duplicated and deeded over to those faithful servants--no tax needed, no burden or wear.

Wickedness tries to proclaim itself in possession of myriad keys, yet are party to false imbalances; recklessly fane, then proudly profane; taken to that which is vile and defiled. Egregiously imbalanced, so have some become, that they send many away, to lead the worthy stock astray in flocks, yes, even in these Days. Erroneously, such men interchange greatly differing weights and measures that are mad with self-righteousness, they could never share heavenly treasure. Rendered to drink, under a new moon, oblivious of the lengthy dark and stormy weather overcast, the Father sends His Son riding on the lightest feathers, where He finds the cleverly deceptive betaking sacred rites and hiding from Light.

Altogether, this does not speak of any number in attendance. However, let it be known to all that my Father, who took me up by Spirit, who now sends me before many, even as a man that struggles with a nicotine addiction, He speaks, "Turn from crookedness, each your own, lest you mistake my Charity for a weakness." As I believe in His Son, do so likewise. Let us repent from our sins and sin no more. Then, may we be in quick service to our brothers and sisters, our fathers and our mothers, and always be of equitable reproof and praise.

I encourage those that read this to strengthen your testimony, edify the Christ with one another, testify to those seeking answers, read Scriptures meaningfully, and attend His Church. And if and when worthy [i yet stand as the latter], go to His Temple, and in all things pertinent, perform the inward and outward ordinances of the gospel. Go, tell it on the mountaintops; say it to all that would hear! Among you are those given the powers to seal your name in the heavens or to cast it in closure into the depths of the pit.

The Son's words to me, for a time were few, "Love can overcome Hate." Since last week, from my waking moments, to after I have laid my head down at night to sleep, He calls to me, "It is the time to go out and speak of my everlasting gospel. Proclaim the Word of our Father, as it is given to you. Speak of these things I have spoken to you. Do so, before my way."

I say these things to you, in the name of His Son, Jesus, the Christ, so all may be in agreement [Amen].

Love,

T.J. Wood

P.S.

Never hurts to read the scriptures, to find time, or to make it. When I was lifted by the Spirit, to His dwelling place (five years ago this coming Father's Day), several things were admonished/commanded of me: change my path, study Scripture, attend Church, hold the experience in reverence, and to never reveal from it that which He gave in confidence, that which is heavenly. Oh how difficult it was, to lay down my pride, to return to His fellowship. I found it easiest to mute my experience, until He said it is time. I am still prohibited from speaking of the entirety thereof. Even as I struggle with a nicotine addiction, I say with surety, "Oh how wonderful is He! Our Redeemer lives!"

Mark 11:12-33 

Luke 12:1-59 

3 Nephi 24:1-18 

3 Nephi 29:1-9 

Doctrine and Covenants 65:1-6 

Doctrine and Covenants 67:1-14 

Doctrine and Covenants 129:1-9 

Doctrine and Covenants 133:1-74 

[Seminarysnoozer]

Well, I hesitate to engage you on this. I understand where you're coming from, and I don't really want to get into a debate. This last interchange with super-cool phil has just about worn me out. But there are some things you need to hear concerning the individual and the institution.

I'm not going to lay out dozens of scriptures. Nor quote dozens of wise sayings by Church leaders. I'm too tired for that.

I would like you to consider a few things that are very clear to me.

1. Jesus saved individuals. He taught individuals. The only reason He set up a Church, was to continue the work of saving individuals after His departing.

2. It's just like the Sabbath is made for man teaching. The Church (or, Kingdom of God) is made to assist man in his pursuit of exaltation. That's it.

3. ZION exists only when *individuals* become Christlike, and one in God.

4. The articles of faith primarily concern individuals. The Gospel is 100% about individual development. The Church, not so much, though it does facilitate the process. And that's why it exists.

5. After the commencement of Church correlation, many members have lost sight of this. It is a tragedy.

6. Recently (in the last year or less) I have heard two Church leaders make profound statements that emphasize the individual responsibility to obtain exaltation. We'll hear more in the near future, I'm hoping. Here's just one:

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/seminary-centennial-broadcast/2012/02?lang=eng&vid=1414473431001&pkey=AQ~~,AAABJMwIxCk~,V-s4Hivdj0tPNypCoK3-U7EDiMwrZ90Q&pid=1302760218001

President Packer. Especially note his statements between 11:28 and 12:12 in the broadcast. When I heard it in the fireside, I felt like jumping up and cheering. You go, President Packer!

BTW, I know this doesn't affect you, but all mystics know well the paradox of the one and the many. If you want to research it, it may benefit you.

HiJolly

Thanks, I appreciate your comments and have learned so much from this forum as it helps me flesh out my own understanding.

I can't say that I disagree with much of what you have to say here ... so, I am not sure about what could be "engaged" anyways. I would just add that the Church is also to prepare for the second coming of Christ and to help establish His Kingdom on Earth, like the stone rolling forth cut without hands ... (to quote a "dream").