A Need to Know

[Seminarysnoozer]

Personally I think there is a common misunderstanding of personal choice and agency. It is not equivelant to the idea or free will. We are not free to do or become anything we want. Our choice is defined between choosing between right and wrong. We all have various attributes that left to our natural selves are antithetical to the Gospel. It's our choice as to whether these things become a wedge or a tool to refine us and help us to grow in the Gospel.

Thanks, I think you are exactly right. I also think the common misunderstanding about this comes from the lack of knowledge about our current situation which is that of mortality a dual being, a spirit self and a physical body self. One of those "selfs" is not our true self, it is a temporary corrupted, genetically altered from the original creation "self". That is what sets up that set of antithetical to the gospel situation for everyone of us. With a lack of understanding regarding our dual nature status people have a hard time separating the "thorns in the flesh" from who the person really is. Understanding and yearning for our divine heritage, the spirit - child of God self, is the struggle of this life because it barely shines through past the more prominent crude body.

Not understanding the plan of salvation makes people say things like "I was born this way" so this is what God wants me to be. The trap is that we will indicate to God what we want to be by our actions and if the divine potential is ignored for the temporary, turn-to-dust traits of the body then we start to make that the desire of our heart. The desire of our heart will be used at the final judgement. The trap becomes sealed when the person finally chooses to live such a lifestyle and tells themselves at some point, 'I don't feel the struggle inside anymore, I am free of that hurt inside'. Yes, when the spirit is no longer fighting the body and the body as fully taken charge, then yes there is no hurt or struggle any more and the trap of the carnal incitements have overpowered spiritual influence and darkened them to the point of no more struggle. But like you said, "It's our choice as to whether these things become a wedge or a tool to refine us and help us to grow in the Gospel." And I think the third option besides a wedge or a tool for refinement is to give up on the struggle altogether as if it is not there any more. This is exactly what Satan wants, he never wanted us to have this struggle in the first place and he still wants us to make that choice.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you've had a good day. :)

The quotes you gave do not support "choice" as you are suggesting. The quote is suggesting that nurture is the missing element, not choice. I don't think nurture and choice are the same thing. If you do, please explain. To me, nurture also is not by choice, at least not that persons choice while developing at a young age. When a person is older one can mold their environment a little more easily based in choice but not fully.

Religion suggests that there is even something more than nature and nurture, it steps beyond a purely naturalistic view of why people do the things they do. Suggesting nurture as another factor still doesn't allow for spiritual influence, the nurture they are referring to is external and comes from the natural (corrupted) world.

My post doesn't exlcude choice or agency. My post says that genetic determinism is false. Bluedreams posts confirms what I wrote and gives a bit more detail.

Respectfully,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer. I hope you've had a good day. :)

My post doesn't exlcude choice or agency. My post says that genetic determinism is false. Bluedreams posts confirms what I wrote and gives a bit more detail.

Respectfully,

Finrock

Thanks, your last sentence of that quote was "If our DNA or our genes do not rigidly determine who we are then we have choice and your daughter's argument fails."

I wasn't speaking against the idea that genetic determinism is false. I agree with that. I was simply responding to that statement, the deduction you made that if it is not our genes that rigidly determine who we are then we have choice. But in that sentence you left out the influence of nurture, which is not the same thing as choice. So, I was just speaking to the idea that the reason it is false is not just because of spirit influence (moral choice) but also because of nurture (external social influence). Nurture and choice are not the same thing. The quotes given talk about the other factor being nurture and don't mention choice and then you throw in the idea of choice as if the quotes somehow supported that. They don't mention choice, they just mention nurture.

From a religious standpoint there are three things at play then, genes (body), nurture (social factors) and spirit influence (moral choices). In any given situation the relative influences can vary and may even vary over time not just situation. The quotes you gave just talk about genes (body) and nurture (social factors and exposures). Many times "nurture" is not by choice either for certain situations.

For example, a child who suffers sexual abuse is not by choice and is not necessarily by genetics that she is exposed to such "nurturing" influences which can have an effect on how the brain is wired for the rest of her life. Of course we all know that the body's make up is something that turns to dust. The risk though is if the spirit learns to like such influences then it becomes "who we are". Or a child who is given methamphetamine at a young age, again not genetics and not by choice, can have a profound influence on how they think later in life.

[MormonMama]

I'm bipolar. It's caused by a chemical imbalance in my brain and is also related to an imbalance of hormones. It is something I was born with, not something I chose, and it can never be cured.

I cannot use my bipolar as an excuse when I let my temper get away from me. I cannot use it as an excuse if I abuse my husband or children. It DOES make it harder for me to control my temper, but it is still up to me to control it.

Just because I was "born this way" doesn't mean God wants me to be this way. He wants me to learn to rise above this challenge and learn to control it, not let it control me.

That's the same way I view homosexuality.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm bipolar. It's caused by a chemical imbalance in my brain and is also related to an imbalance of hormones. It is something I was born with, not something I chose, and it can never be cured.

I cannot use my bipolar as an excuse when I let my temper get away from me. I cannot use it as an excuse if I abuse my husband or children. It DOES make it harder for me to control my temper, but it is still up to me to control it.

Just because I was "born this way" doesn't mean God wants me to be this way. He wants me to learn to rise above this challenge and learn to control it, not let it control me.

That's the same way I view homosexuality.

Thanks.

I think it is important to state though that just because one person could "control" it for the most part does not necessarily mean that God expects all to control it or have the ability to. "Rise above" in other words doesn't necessarily mean being able to get rid of it or "control" it all the time. It still may control a person at times but "rise above" would be not letting it drag one down spiritually.

If someone had a seizure disorder and they have done all they can to control it and been seizure free on medications for years but one day had a seizure while driving and killed someone, I don't think necessarily that God is going to say 'I expected you to control that'.