What is free will?

[Traveler]

Hmmmmm - everybody seems to think in this life we have a choice. I wonder if what we experience in this life is not the result of choices in this life but choices that were made even before we were born?

What is a choice? If someone says we can chose the gift hidden behind 2 or more doors - is that a choice. Can guesses be choices? Or do we need to know and understand something to make a choice? Can we choose to play basketball in the NBA if we never practice basket ball? How does discipline play in our choices. I submit that without discipline - we cannot ever come to a point where we may actually choose - we can only have that which lack of discipline allows - that does no seem like an actual real choice to me.

The Traveler

[norah63]

The Word teaches us to , hear the Fathers voice, and as a child of God that is our privilege .

So what ever man says to us, we filter through what that Word that is revealed to us.

If we do not seek, or do not have a revelation, our following is just works without faith.

Choice of the Spirit or choice of the flesh.

Our choice is to seek, or follow, or not do anything. I can't see how much more complicated this could become.

If we do not make the gospel simple that a little child can understand, then it's just to overwhelming for adults also.

[C_T_R]

Hmmmmm - everybody seems to think in this life we have a choice. I wonder if what we experience in this life is not the result of choices in this life but choices that were made even before we were born?

What is a choice? If someone says we can chose the gift hidden behind 2 or more doors - is that a choice. Can guesses be choices? Or do we need to know and understand something to make a choice?

No, in my opinion we don't have to know and understand something to make a choice. I hear what you're saying here, but people choose ignorantly every day.. whether it's due to true ignorance or whether it's due to refusing to see the truth. The point of accountability for everyone's choices rests on Jesus Christ who will judge them for that. But just as Neal Maxwell stated in that talk I've quoted again and again, "Are my desires sufficiently educated to choose wisely (see Alma 13:3, 10)? Could the further education of my desires be the most important form of continuing education?" That talk specifically addresses the incredible implications of our agency, and what a great responsibility it is for us... we choose where we go in the life after this, and what law we can abide.

Can we choose to play basketball in the NBA if we never practice basket ball? How does discipline play in our choices. I submit that without discipline - we cannot ever come to a point where we may actually choose - we can only have that which lack of discipline allows - that does no seem like an actual real choice to me.

No, we can't choose to play basketball in the NBA if we never practice basketball.. but that is a perfect example of our freedom to choose. You can choose what you want to devote your time to.. but you can't choose the outcome. You can sit there and say I want to be an NBA player, but if you're not putting in the hours, and years then how could you expect that? Even so, if you do put in the hours and years, and still end up not doing very well, choosing to play in the NBA isn't really a choice for most people. You have to be exceptional. So you think that takes away their choices?

I would reiterate that we are given free will, "That ye may live and move and do according to your own will" (Mosiah 2:21), but it isn't the same as saying you are free to live YOUR will. Discipline certainly plays a role in doing anything worthwhile.. like learning a musical instrument, brushing your teeth everyday, and living the commandments of God. But one is free to choose not to practice, not to brush their teeth, and not follow the Gospel. -- They can choose that knowing full well the consequences, but they can also choose that completely ignorant of the fact that your teeth will hurt and fall out if you don't take care of them and/or get yourself to the Dentist. One can choose whether to be faithful to his wife, or to not be.. but he can't choose whether his wife will forgive him or not, and whether he'll lose his family over it or not.

I hear what you're saying.. I just think you're shifting the responsibility and I don't buy it. That's my view.

[rameumptom]

Traveler, Jesus seemed to discount the notion of pre-mortal events overshadowing the ones here. His disciples saw a man blind at birth, and asked him who sinned: the man in his pre-earth life, or his parents, to have caused this tragedy. Jesus answered that neither was the case, but that through this disability, the power of God may be made manifest.

Our situations today are given us that God may work through us. No more. No less. We only get to choose whether God works through us or not.

[Traveler]

Traveler, Jesus seemed to discount the notion of pre-mortal events overshadowing the ones here. His disciples saw a man blind at birth, and asked him who sinned: the man in his pre-earth life, or his parents, to have caused this tragedy. Jesus answered that neither was the case, but that through this disability, the power of God may be made manifest.

Our situations today are given us that God may work through us. No more. No less. We only get to choose whether God works through us or not.

I believe that we are far more than puppets on strings of G-d working through us. My point is that if our situations come exclusively through G-d in full or even in part - that violates the very principle of free will. There is no almost - we either act within our free will or we act according to situations forced upon us which is contrary to our free will if it is not completely our choice.

The Traveler

[C_T_R]

So if I have a disabling disease that I did nothing to bring on myself, then my free will is gone? It limits me from doing the things I want to do, and I know that I am capable of discipline that would enable me to be great at what I want to do.. yet I can't do it as much as I want to. Does that mean my free will is gone?

I still get to choose to pursue it however little I progress. We don't get to choose our circumstances. Does that mean people who are in poverty don't have free will, and that only healthy, wealthy people do? It does not violate the principle of free will to have circumstances beyond our control forced upon us. Many times the problems we have are due to OTHERS free will to choose and those consequences are put on our shoulders. Does that mean our free will is void? No, it doesn't.

How would it be otherwise? Satan's plan was that we would not have free will. We'd come here, get bodies, be FORCED to obey the commandments and live PERFECT lives, and die, and all be saved. No need for an atonement... no need for the ability to think on our own, in fact, that wouldn't be possible. No need for alternatives, and the constant opportunity to learn between good and evil. No need to face pain, but on the flip side, no need to enjoy happiness. You can't know how good something is without knowing what it's like to not have it. Satan's plan was for us to be essentially robots. We do have free will. Our circumstances present obstacles and things that make it harder, but thank God for those things! "If it is also true (in some way we don't understand) that the cavity which suffering carves into our souls will one day also be the receptacle of joy, how infinitely greater Jesus' capacity for joy, when he said, after his resurrection, "Behold, my joy is full." How very, very full, indeed, his joy must have been!" - Neal Maxwell

This is the plan.. this is a test.. and yet, we are free to choose within the confines of our mortal probation. No, someone can't choose whether they get cancer always, but they can choose what to do with the energy allotted to them. Consider that all of us who kept our first estate are already saved, save sons of perdition. Well then what would we be here for? If the price has been paid already, and it has, what are we here for? Certainly not to meet the demands of justice for our own souls. It's an opportunity to learn through our choices what it is we want. This is a time of learning, and opportunities to draw us closer to God are there every moment, whether we know it or not; whether we take them or not. Choosing not to choose is also a decision! Free agency is real, and it is perfect. What a gift. God does not want us to be drones.. He embraces diversity and individuality, and He wants us to be free to choose what it is we want.

[Traveler]

So if I have a disabling disease that I did nothing to bring on myself, then my free will is gone? It limits me from doing the things I want to do, and I know that I am capable of discipline that would enable me to be great at what I want to do.. yet I can't do it as much as I want to. Does that mean my free will is gone?

I still get to choose to pursue it however little I progress. We don't get to choose our circumstances. Does that mean people who are in poverty don't have free will, and that only healthy, wealthy people do? It does not violate the principle of free will to have circumstances beyond our control forced upon us. Many times the problems we have are due to OTHERS free will to choose and those consequences are put on our shoulders. Does that mean our free will is void? No, it doesn't.

How would it be otherwise? Satan's plan was that we would not have free will. We'd come here, get bodies, be FORCED to obey the commandments and live PERFECT lives, and die, and all be saved. No need for an atonement... no need for the ability to think on our own, in fact, that wouldn't be possible. No need for alternatives, and the constant opportunity to learn between good and evil. No need to face pain, but on the flip side, no need to enjoy happiness. You can't know how good something is without knowing what it's like to not have it. Satan's plan was for us to be essentially robots. We do have free will. Our circumstances present obstacles and things that make it harder, but thank God for those things! "If it is also true (in some way we don't understand) that the cavity which suffering carves into our souls will one day also be the receptacle of joy, how infinitely greater Jesus' capacity for joy, when he said, after his resurrection, "Behold, my joy is full." How very, very full, indeed, his joy must have been!" - Neal Maxwell

This is the plan.. this is a test.. and yet, we are free to choose within the confines of our mortal probation. No, someone can't choose whether they get cancer always, but they can choose what to do with the energy allotted to them. Consider that all of us who kept our first estate are already saved, save sons of perdition. Well then what would we be here for? If the price has been paid already, and it has, what are we here for? Certainly not to meet the demands of justice for our own souls. It's an opportunity to learn through our choices what it is we want. This is a time of learning, and opportunities to draw us closer to God are there every moment, whether we know it or not; whether we take them or not. Choosing not to choose is also a decision! Free agency is real, and it is perfect. What a gift. God does not want us to be drones.. He embraces diversity and individuality, and He wants us to be free to choose what it is we want.

What we experience in this life is only according to our free will if we knew completely to the finest details our circumstances and with full knowledge chose it to be.

I think many have it backwards - Satan wanted exclusive control over our circumstance (not G-d) leaving us without having any choice but to conform to a pre-selected no input choice.

I believe our life is our life because we planned it - we selected it - we designed it and we live it. The blind man knew exactly what G-d needed in order to manifest Jesus and that man in full knowledge before his birth - did not sin but choose to be that instrument in full accord with free will.

It is our life to make the best or worse of - I really do think it silly to blame G-d for all of or even any tiny bit of our circumstances.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

I think I'm done with this discussion, because frankly, Traveler, your definition is beyond comprehension. It makes no sense, given the reality we live in.

We do not choose the circumstances we are born into, but we do choose how we respond to such circumstances. Therein lies our free will. Free will is the choice we are given to the choices given us in life.

With that, I'm bowing out, because this is a circular, silly discussion.

[C_T_R]

I can imagine agreeing to the circumstances we're born into. Don't know whether it was our choice, but I think we were all quite eager to get a body, and progress in the plan.

It is our life to make the best or worse of - I really do think it silly to blame G-d for all of or even any tiny bit of our circumstances.

I agree that we shouldn't blame God for negative circumstances in our lives, but at the same time, I think we owe a debt of gratitude for everything we have going for us in our lives. I agree it's our life to make the best or worst of.. by our choices. I believe in the pre-existence we got to agree to our lives..

I think many have it backwards - Satan wanted exclusive control over our circumstance (not G-d) leaving us without having any choice but to conform to a pre-selected no input choice.

Exactly what I said in different words. No choice, no freedom, no thinking for ourselves. What would be the point?

But yeah, I'm kind of done with this discussion too. I hope you're able to find other members who'll answer any questions you have on this left. Good luck in your travels. :)

[SteveVH]

I think I'm done with this discussion, because frankly, Traveler, your definition is beyond comprehension. It makes no sense, given the reality we live in.

With that, I'm bowing out, because this is a circular, silly discussion.

Thank God, I thought I was the only one.

[SteveVH]

I agree that we shouldn't blame God for negative circumstances in our lives, but at the same time, I think we owe a debt of gratitude for everything we have going for us in our lives.

I want to relate a story I heard not long ago about a Catholic nun who was imprisoned at Auschwitz. The women were separated from the men and placed in their own barracks. The women in her barracks got infested with lice. As they were complaining the nun told them to thank God, even for the lice. After they were liberated they learned that the women in the other barracks had been beaten and raped by the Nazi soldiers. The women in the nun's barracks were left alone. The soldiers would not go into their barracks because they were infested with lice. Sometimes we don't recognize our blessings.

We don't know, sometimes, why we suffer, but we do know that we have a God that can transform evil into good. Just look at the crucifixion. So we should trust God at all times and in all circumstances and give him thanks for his great wisdom and mercy.

Edited September 11, 2012 by StephenVH

[Guest]

Can't resist.

[SteveVH]

Can't resist.

[Traveler]

I think I'm done with this discussion, because frankly, Traveler, your definition is beyond comprehension. It makes no sense, given the reality we live in.

We do not choose the circumstances we are born into, but we do choose how we respond to such circumstances. Therein lies our free will. Free will is the choice we are given to the choices given us in life.

With that, I'm bowing out, because this is a circular, silly discussion.

Really? What choice and expression of free will does an aborted child have?

Rameumptom may not respond - but can anyone answer? In fact - how does anyone respond to the circumstance of being murdered? - Because they died that must be their free will choice?

I think NOT! Silly - Silly me.

The Traveler

[Guest]

Really? What choice and expression of free will does an aborted child have?

Rameumptom may not respond - but can anyone answer? In fact - how does anyone respond to the circumstance of being murdered? - Because they died that must be their free will choice?

I think NOT! Silly - Silly me.

The Traveler

Okay, I did not read the entire thread, so I may have taken you out of context... but let me give you an answer:

What choice and expression of free will does an aborted child have? Okay, as an LDS we believe in pre-mortal spirits. Therefore, an aborted fetus doesn't have to be a spiritual being. But, also because we believe in pre-mortal spirits, we also believe, that IF the spirit did join the body and was aborted then it was the spirit's free choice to accept that journey - or more than likely his exercise of free will pre-mortally has already achieved a level beyond the need for mortal progression so his progression continues in the spirit world. Remember, free will is not limited to mortal existence. Free will may be exercised pre-mortally, mortally, and post-mortally.

But, in any case, the free will was the mothers, the aborted fetus was just an instrument in the carrying out of the mother's choice.

For the circumstance of being murdered? Same thing. The murdered person did not lose free will just because his time in mortality ended. He continues to exercise free will beyond death. But, the free choice was exercised by the murderer. The murdered was just the instrument in the carrying out of this choice.

So, as Lion King says - we are all inter-connected in this Circle of Life...

Okay, jesting aside... More appropriately, we refer to 2 Nephi 2:26, that there is something that acts and something that is acted upon. We all have the choice to act, and we all may be acted upon by others' choices. Such is life in this God's Kingdom.

Edited September 15, 2012 by anatess

[Traveler]

Okay, I did not read the entire thread, so I may have taken you out of context... but let me give you an answer:

What choice and expression of free will does an aborted child have? Okay, as an LDS we believe in pre-mortal spirits. Therefore, an aborted fetus doesn't have to be a spiritual being. But, also because we believe in pre-mortal spirits, we also believe, that IF the spirit did join the body and was aborted then it was the spirit's free choice to accept that journey - or more than likely his exercise of free will pre-mortally has already achieved a level beyond the need for mortal progression so his progression continues in the spirit world. Remember, free will is not limited to mortal existence. Free will may be exercised pre-mortally, mortally, and post-mortally.

But, in any case, the free will was the mothers, the aborted fetus was just an instrument in the carrying out of the mother's choice.

For the circumstance of being murdered? Same thing. The murdered person did not lose free will just because his time in mortality ended. He continues to exercise free will beyond death. But, the free choice was exercised by the murderer. The murdered was just the instrument in the carrying out of this choice.

So, as Lion King says - we are all inter-connected in this Circle of Life...

Okay, jesting aside... More appropriately, we refer to 2 Nephi 2:26, that there is something that acts and something that is acted upon. We all have the choice to act, and we all may be acted upon by others' choices. Such is life in this God's Kingdom.

I think you bring some important ideas and concepts direct to the point of the discussion. Without the possibility of a pre-existence there is no free will associated with this current existence. The inevitable consequence of this life is death - regardless of what-ever choices me make. Death prevents free will and proves conclusively that we do not have free will -- unless this life is the result and consequence of a previous choice there is no valid or truthful claim of free will. All such claims are false and illusions.

The truth is that because of the fall mankind is not free but can (the operative word here is CAN) be free through the atonement of Christ. What choice in this life is there for all to choose Christ? Again the justice of choice is an illusion unless beyond this life there is still a possibility of choice that was not completely understood here. Those that claim all in this life are granted the same right and possible opportunity to choose Christ - just are not paying attention and in essence deceive themselves. The LDS view on this matter is the only view I find acceptable for anyone that truly believes in freewill and justice.

The Traveler

Edited September 16, 2012 by Traveler

[C_T_R]

Free will does not mean that we're also free to choose how OTHER people exercise THEIR free will. If a mother aborts a baby, she is using her free will.. and depending on the circumstances, and it's really between her and God, she could well be considered a murderer. THIS is how committed to our free agency/will God is...

Another example (let's say hypothetical) I've kept my body pure and saved myself for my future spouse. I don't wear immodest clothing, and respect the body that I was given. However, some dunderhead breaks into my condo and plants cameras so he can see me changing my clothes, showering, and doing all the things I'd like to do in the privacy of my own home. Does that take away my free will to want to shower and not be seen? Yeah, it does.. but it was this idiot's free will to put them in.. and he WILL be held accountable for that. Another example of how serious God is about letting US choose our destiny. I have the choice whether to let it wreck my life, or to say.. well now that he's violated me in such a HYPOCRITICAL way, I guess there's no point in protecting my body any longer.. or any number of possibilities, including getting the authorities involved, moving, etc. etc.

Just because someone can do things to you out of their own free will, doesn't mean you don't have it still. It makes this unnecessarily more difficult, or your mortal probation is cut short because of someone else's free will, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. It is, and that is what this life is about. To exercise that free will to choose liberty and eternal life, or misery and damnation. Free will doesn't mean you get to choose what illnesses you get caused by OTHER'S free will to load up our food with so many chemicals, how horrible the air quality is and pollution due to our cars and other methods of transport, and that if you smoke, you can choose whether you get lung cancer or not. Even if you don't smoke you can't choose whether you get it due to someone else's choice.

If I've understood you right your definition of free will is that people chose every single thing that would happen to them in this life in the preexistence. It's like either EVERYTHING happens because you chose it, or NOTHING happens because you chose it. I would say, as Neal Maxwell stated, that we are each other's clinical experience here in mortality. What was foreordained and what wasn't? I believe we either chose, or agreed to the life we have.. but at the same time, we're still free to choose here.. if someone messes their lives up on drugs big time and goes out and shoots people.. was that all choices that everyone affected made in the life before this? I don't think so necessarily. I think some was and some wasn't. I also believe that God is able to see from "beginning" to "end" and He knows how and what we're going to do and behave like.. because for Him, it's already happened. But that doesn't affect our free will.

NO I am NOT saying that all in this life are granted the same possible opportunity to choose Christ. I just watched a travel show in Nicaragua and how.. just *how* poor and horrible the living conditions are in that socialistic society where their president's estimated wealth is 400 million dollars. He's free to choose that, unfortunately, through this gift of choosing his eternal destiny. But those people who suffer because of HIS choices, still exercise free will even in their duress. And I'm not sure why you'd think there wouldn't be a chance for people to learn and choose in the life hereafter? We're taught that. Much missionary work goes on in the next stage, and possibly throughout the eternities. Everyone will understand what it is they can choose, whether in this life or the next. But if they choose not to in this life because they don't want to abide the teachings, or go against the grain, or be lazy, that's a different issue.

[Traveler]

Free will does not mean that we're also free to choose how OTHER people exercise THEIR free will. If a mother aborts a baby, she is using her free will.. and depending on the circumstances, and it's really between her and God, she could well be considered a murderer. THIS is how committed to our free agency/will God is...

Another example (let's say hypothetical) I've kept my body pure and saved myself for my future spouse. I don't wear immodest clothing, and respect the body that I was given. However, some dunderhead breaks into my condo and plants cameras so he can see me changing my clothes, showering, and doing all the things I'd like to do in the privacy of my own home. Does that take away my free will to want to shower and not be seen? Yeah, it does.. but it was this idiot's free will to put them in.. and he WILL be held accountable for that. Another example of how serious God is about letting US choose our destiny. I have the choice whether to let it wreck my life, or to say.. well now that he's violated me in such a HYPOCRITICAL way, I guess there's no point in protecting my body any longer.. or any number of possibilities, including getting the authorities involved, moving, etc. etc.

Just because someone can do things to you out of their own free will, doesn't mean you don't have it still. It makes this unnecessarily more difficult, or your mortal probation is cut short because of someone else's free will, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. It is, and that is what this life is about. To exercise that free will to choose liberty and eternal life, or misery and damnation. Free will doesn't mean you get to choose what illnesses you get caused by OTHER'S free will to load up our food with so many chemicals, how horrible the air quality is and pollution due to our cars and other methods of transport, and that if you smoke, you can choose whether you get lung cancer or not. Even if you don't smoke you can't choose whether you get it due to someone else's choice.

If I've understood you right your definition of free will is that people chose every single thing that would happen to them in this life in the preexistence. It's like either EVERYTHING happens because you chose it, or NOTHING happens because you chose it. I would say, as Neal Maxwell stated, that we are each other's clinical experience here in mortality. What was foreordained and what wasn't? I believe we either chose, or agreed to the life we have.. but at the same time, we're still free to choose here.. if someone messes their lives up on drugs big time and goes out and shoots people.. was that all choices that everyone affected made in the life before this? I don't think so necessarily. I think some was and some wasn't. I also believe that God is able to see from "beginning" to "end" and He knows how and what we're going to do and behave like.. because for Him, it's already happened. But that doesn't affect our free will.

NO I am NOT saying that all in this life are granted the same possible opportunity to choose Christ. I just watched a travel show in Nicaragua and how.. just *how* poor and horrible the living conditions are in that socialistic society where their president's estimated wealth is 400 million dollars. He's free to choose that, unfortunately, through this gift of choosing his eternal destiny. But those people who suffer because of HIS choices, still exercise free will even in their duress. And I'm not sure why you'd think there wouldn't be a chance for people to learn and choose in the life hereafter? We're taught that. Much missionary work goes on in the next stage, and possibly throughout the eternities. Everyone will understand what it is they can choose, whether in this life or the next. But if they choose not to in this life because they don't want to abide the teachings, or go against the grain, or be lazy, that's a different issue.

If you are addressing The Traveler - I do believe that there is a time after death in which we still continue to make choices. But my point is that if we measure our choices by this life and experience and do not allow extension into a previous life or an after life then free will is not possible.

Do we choose when we will die? Only if we choose to die at a particular moment - but I argue that we do not have the power to choose life or death. Without choice - how can there be free will?

Plus no one really knows what the actual consequence of death is (even if they think the do or strongly believe something for the truth is faith is the only possibility beyond life - so that someone that thinks that they are choosing death to avoid some consequence of life may not be making the choice they thought they were making. If such is the case the choice to die may or may not be an expression of free will.

Therefore my point is that unless there was a per-exastence where we chose to come to earth as a fallen being cast off from the presents of G-d to experience mortality and death then free will is and illusion and a lie.

The Traveler