Mistakes In The News About Polygamy And Mormons

[Stephen]

In reality the Tanners do provide counseling and group therapy to those who have honestly discovered the Mormon deception and walked away from the Mormon Church only to be shunned by friends and relatives for leaving the LDS Church. Many of those people don't know where to go after leaving the LDS Church and have been extremely ostracized by their own family members and LDS Church members. I know from first hand experience the social effects of leaving the religious and cultural norm of your community......I have friends cut-off associations with me and family members shun me simply for leaving the LDS Church. Yes, The Tanners website is a means of getting out information to people about the false doctrines the Mormon Church has taught over the years and many Mormon doctrines contradict biblical truth. The Tanners website does not provide counseling, study groups or help groups........it is a website and is not capable of doing those things. I am grateful that there are honest people like the Tanners who are willing to speak the truth despite horrible hate mail and even occasional death threats. People like Snow who like to mock the Tanners are a dime a dozen.......they have got nothing productive to say....and claim the Tanners are just out to make huge profits or other ulterior motives. I have yet to see you show where something the Tanners have documented was a deceptive or untruthful. You just pile on the ad-hominem attacks and make fun of people who have dedicated their lives to God and exposing errors as they share the biblical truths of God with those who have eyes to see and ears to hear with a desire to really find the truth.

Outshined can parrot her Snow buddy and defend everything he says no matter how ridiculous.... but that will not endear you to anybody.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 17 2004, 04:02 PM

Outshined can parrot her Snow buddy and defend everything he says no matter how ridiculous.... like the spineless weasel we expect to hear from, but that will not endear you to anybody.

Well, little fellow, for starters I am not a "her", but a recently-returned-from-Iraq male. Sorry to dissapoint you, champ.

I have yet to "parrot" Snow in any of these threads, but do see how he has been running circles around you in the debates you've desperately tried to keep up in. It's frustrating, I know, but there doesn't seem to be much you can do about it.

So far Snow's comments have been far less ridiculous than your own (except, of course when he is trying to be ridiculous). Your entire post, while a loving, blindly devoted tribute to the Tanners, was simply your opinion, which holds exactly as much weight as Snow's. I know, he gets under your skin while perpetually upstaging you and has done an excellent job of making you look like a fool, but he's had your help.

Perhaps you even believe the stuff you are spouting about "Mormon deceptions", and all that or maybe it's just bad rhetoric. Heck, you may not even know the difference! Yes, we can all see that you have quite the axe to grind against the LDS Church, and think you were cheated somehow. Swell. Get over it already and get on with life.

You can't tell us anything new about the Tanners or their "ministry". I've had several conversations with them over the years, starting while I was still an investigator. They usually do well with old documents and basic facts, but draw wildly inaccurate conclusions. I could point you to a number of articles documenting this, but what's the point? (Those who are interested, try HERE and Here)

One point about the Tanners and their honesty: They were the first to discover that Dee Jay Nelson was a fraud, but hid the information because he was the star witness in some of their books. Look it up; start with "They Lie In Wait To Deceive", volume 1.

Anyway, it's no big deal to us. Life will go on, and Snow will continue to get the best of you.

I'll just depend on my history here at LDS Talk and relationships with the others here to cement their "endearment". Yours I don't care about.

Have a lovely day, sport!

-Outshined

[Cal]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 17 2004, 03:02 PM

In reality the Tanners do provide counseling and group therapy to those who have honestly discovered the Mormon deception and walked away from the Mormon Church only to be shunned by friends and relatives for leaving the LDS Church. Many of those people don't know where to go after leaving the LDS Church and have been extremely ostracized by their own family members and LDS Church members. I know from first hand experience the social effects of leaving the religious and cultural norm of your community......I have friends cut-off associations with me and family members shun me simply for leaving the LDS Church. Yes, The Tanners website is a means of getting out information to people about the false doctrines the Mormon Church has taught over the years and many Mormon doctrines contradict biblical truth. The Tanners website does not provide counseling, study groups or help groups........it is a website and is not capable of doing those things. I am grateful that there are honest people like the Tanners who are willing to speak the truth despite horrible hate mail and even occasional death threats. People like Snow who like to mock the Tanners are a dime a dozen.......they have got nothing productive to say....and claim the Tanners are just out to make huge profits or other ulterior motives. I have yet to see you show where something the Tanners have documented was a deceptive or untruthful. You just pile on the ad-hominem attacks and make fun of people who have dedicated their lives to God and exposing errors as they share the biblical truths of God with those who have eyes to see and ears to hear with a desire to really find the truth.

Outshined can parrot her Snow buddy and defend everything he says no matter how ridiculous.... but that will not endear you to anybody.

Stephan--the weakness that the Tanners point out in Mormon fall on deaf ears for one simple and logically inescapable reason:

Their "born-again" insistence on the validity of the bible and Jesus' divinity rests on the same FOUNDATION as Mormonism does---THAT IS---Faith in something for which there is insufficient tangible, scientific evidence to justify on any basis besides FAITH--which is, in the case of the born-agains, Jesus's resurrection; and in the case of Mormonism, Joseph Smith's first vision and angelic visitations.

Yes, there is "reason" to believe both; no, there is insufficient evidence to compel belief in either.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 17 2004, 06:03 PM

Yes, there is "reason" to believe both; no, there is insufficient evidence to compel belief in either.

Well said, actually.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 17 2004, 03:02 PM

In reality the Tanners do provide counseling and group therapy to those who have honestly discovered the Mormon deception and walked away from the Mormon Church only to be shunned by friends and relatives for leaving the LDS Church. Many of those people don't know where to go after leaving the LDS Church and have been extremely ostracized by their own family members and LDS Church members. I know from first hand experience the social effects of leaving the religious and cultural norm of your community......I have friends cut-off associations with me and family members shun me simply for leaving the LDS Church. Yes, The Tanners website is a means of getting out information to people about the false doctrines the Mormon Church has taught over the years and many Mormon doctrines contradict biblical truth. The Tanners website does not provide counseling, study groups or help groups........it is a website and is not capable of doing those things. I am grateful that there are honest people like the Tanners who are willing to speak the truth despite horrible hate mail and even occasional death threats. People like Snow who like to mock the Tanners are a dime a dozen.......they have got nothing productive to say....and claim the Tanners are just out to make huge profits or other ulterior motives. I have yet to see you show where something the Tanners have documented was a deceptive or untruthful. You just pile on the ad-hominem attacks and make fun of people who have dedicated their lives to God and exposing errors as they share the biblical truths of God with those who have eyes to see and ears to hear with a desire to really find the truth.

Outshined can parrot her Snow buddy and defend everything he says no matter how ridiculous.... but that will not endear you to anybody.

Odd that the Tanner outreach ministry official website including the "About Us" section makes no mention of this counseling and group therapy you mention, but whatever, if you say so Stephen.

I am sorry that you have a family and friends that are so sucky that they have treated you poorly when you mock and ridicule them. True, you don't pick your family but the friends are kind of a reflection on you, aren't they. Also true, I am making the assumption that you are not too disingenous and act the same way with them that you act with us.

Your statement about the Tanner website being a great way to get out information about LDS false doctrine is just plain stupid. Doctrines are principles or a body of principles, dogma. How can they be false? Do you think that they aren't really principles or dogma - like they are fake dogma? What you should have said, but were too discombobulated to say, was that doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ are not the same as the same doctrines of your narrow religious dogma. Wow! You mean that you interpret the gospel differently that does the Church of Jesus Christ? Hold the presses Emma, we got a news flash!

Now Stephen, what on earth or in hades would possess you to say that I think that the Tanner's make HUGE profits? Is that another of your whole cloth fabrications? My personal view is that their amatuerish historian skills, tortured editorial style, and low-brow writing talent, poorly thought-out and hypocritical literature doesn't sell all that well and they probably don't make much profit at all - but it ain't from lack of trying.

My main issue with Gerald and Sandra, beyond their complete and utter lack of fashion sense, is that they are HUGE hypocrits and refuse to apply the same standards to their own faith that they seek to impose on my faith - and, oh yeah, anyone who attacks other religions, on religious grounds, for a living (or even if they retain their amateur status) suck.

BTW: Outshined can handle himself quite well I see so there is no need for my assistance, but thank you for yours in making my point.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

DING DING DING! My BS detector just started chirping like a sparrow.

Anaheim sparrows must not make the same noise as CdM sparrows. I can't say I've ever heard a sparrow go "ding" before.

And Snow, you really ought to upgrade your BS detector to the XP-2004 version. It replaces the generic mechanical bell sound with any one of a large menu of electronically-boosted alarms. I chose the old submarine movie-style A-OOOO-Ga klaxon.

Although I do have to turn the volume down when I apply it to one of John Kerry's "nuances."

[Guest TheProudDuck]

and many Mormon doctrines contradict biblical truth.

As interpreted by (surprise, surprise) the Tanners themselves. Who elected them Pope and Vanozza Catanei?

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 17 2004, 07:44 PM

Although I do have to turn the volume down when I apply it to one of John Kerry's "nuances."

Speaking of which...

Kerry says that he had the private backing of a bunch of foreign leaders. The Bush Adminstration challenges him to say who and Kerry accuses Bush of trying to divert attention from the real issues. Egads.

Now, I hear Kerry is the biggest thing in France since Jerry Lewis and hairy armpits. There's an endorsement for you. The French love Kerry.

Did you know that in France it is forbidden to advertise wine except in strict accordance with certain laws that require that the message pertain just to the wine and wine information. For example, it is illegal for a commercial to show a pretty girl drinking wine.

Real freedom lovers - the French.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 17 2004, 03:24 PM

Well, little fellow, for starters I am not a "her", but a recently-returned-from-Iraq male. Sorry to dissapoint you, champ.

Outshined~

If it hasn't been said before....Glad to have you back in the States! Welcome Home!!

Nice to have you join the board family :)

I am really enjoying this thread.....

[Outshined]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Mar 18 2004, 02:03 AM

Outshined~

If it hasn't been said before....Glad to have you back in the States! Welcome Home!!

Nice to have you join the board family :)

I am really enjoying this thread.....

Thanks, Lindy! I was pretty active on this board for several years, then Uncle Sam took me away for a while. If you haven't already, check out my web site (link below). I have some pictures from the Iraq vacation posted there.

I enjoy the board here, too; the members are pretty unique, and tend to have more of a sense of humor.

[Guest lt]

Outshined...yes...we have missed you......Welcome back.

Stephan I think you need to take another look at the tanners site....

[Stephen]

Originally posted by LaurelTree@Mar 18 2004, 06:30 AM

Stephan I think you need to take another look at the tanners site....

I think you need to read information from their website for the first time and check out the references. The meticulous research they do and accurate information they bring forth might surprise you.

All that Snow and Outshined are whining about is the conclusions the Tanners bring forth from the information they expose. If you disagree with their conclusions its no big deal to me..........just don't whine and complain because The Tanners don't come to the same conclusion as you do after reading the same information. You have to admit that The Tanners bring forth information that LDS General Authorities would rather be kept secret and remain in the past. Perhaps that is where the anger and bigoted attitude of Snow toward The Tanners really comes from.....they bring out information he would rather not know about. If you were honest with yourself then you would admit that any information and opinions that disagree with how Mormons view themselves, their history and their doctrines automatically get labelled "anti-Mormon" and you get the snide remarks and nasty comments that come from people like Snow.

I have many LDS friends that I get along great with. It is the self-righteous ones that can't handle being around people with different opinions then their own that its impossible to have a friendship with. I would rather get along with Snow, but he prefers to mock and ridicule anything I say that he does not agree with. This is the first I have been on this message board for a long time for exactly that reason.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 18 2004, 10:19 AM

All that Snow and Outshined are whining about is the conclusions the Tanners bring forth from the information they expose. If you disagree with their conclusions its no big deal to me..........just don't whine and complain because The Tanners don't come to the same conclusion as you do after reading the same information.

Check your posts before you accuse anyone of "whining", little guy.

It appears that you are guilty of exactly what you are accusing others of. Snow doesn't agree with your doe-eyed assessment of the Tanners, so you attack him. (and me, but I don't give it much credence anyway). The fact that so many scholars disagree with the Tanners should send up a red flag, but through the rose-colored glasses, it may appear white, eh?

You preach that we don't agree with the Tanners' conclusions, and we should stay quiet about it, then you cry because we don't hold them in the same breathless regard that you do.

Pot, meet kettle.....

Fact is, most of us here are at least as familiar with the Tanners' work as you are, if not more so, and have just not found their work that outstanding or accurate. Get over it already.

Trust me, sport, the GA's don't care about the Tanners' work at all, or we'd hear a bit about it, wouldn't we? Surely we'd get the occasional warning to avoid their work, but nope, it just doesn't matter. You were the one who made the Tanners such a big subject in the first place; no one else cared about it.

You're just angry because the rest of us don't throw ourselves at the feet of these people the way you do.

Perhaps it's just because we read more........

-Outshined

[EDIT] I think my biggest problem with the Tanners, besides their inaccurate conclusions, is their unwillingness to examine their own faith with the same scrutiny that they apply to the LDS Church.

Sandra Tanner was asked if she could provide the same level of proof for her own evangelical beliefs that she demands of Mormonism. Her reply was no, that since her beliefs are "true", they require no proof. Wrong answer, in my book.

[Outshined]

Hey, Snow, what is it that you don't want to know about, anyway? Inquiring minds wanna know........

[Lindy]

Stephen~

If you were honest with yourself then you would admit that any information and opinions that disagree with how Mormons view themselves, their history and their doctrines automatically get labelled "anti-Mormon" and you get the snide remarks and nasty comments that come from people like Snow.

Snide remarks and nasty comments aside....one word does come to mind...Defense. I think that Snow has a right to defend his faith, the same way you have defended yours.

Outshined~

Your website is one of the best I have seen! It deserves a little plug here!!!

HEY EVERYONE......CHECK OUT THIS GREAT WEBSITE BY OUTSHINED....

My Website (HMMM.....This one doesn't work...click on the one he has on the bottome of his post above)

A lot of time and thought went into it. It is wonderful, awesome, and very informative. :)

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 17 2004, 05:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 17 2004, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Stephen@Mar 17 2004, 03:02 PM

In reality the Tanners do provide counseling and group therapy to those who have honestly discovered the Mormon deception and walked away from the Mormon Church only to be shunned by friends and relatives for leaving the LDS Church. Many of those people don't know where to go after leaving the LDS Church and have been extremely ostracized by their own family members and LDS Church members. I know from first hand experience the social effects of leaving the religious and cultural norm of your community......I have friends cut-off associations with me and family members shun me simply for leaving the LDS Church. Yes, The Tanners website is a means of getting out information to people about the false doctrines the Mormon Church has taught over the years and many Mormon doctrines contradict biblical truth. The Tanners website does not provide counseling, study groups or help groups........it is a website and is not capable of doing those things.  I am grateful that there are honest people like the Tanners who are willing to speak the truth despite horrible hate mail and even occasional death threats. People like Snow who like to mock the Tanners are a dime a dozen.......they have got nothing productive to say....and claim the Tanners are just out to make huge profits or other ulterior motives. I have yet to see you show where something the Tanners have documented was a deceptive or untruthful. You just pile on the ad-hominem attacks and make fun of people who have dedicated their lives to God and exposing errors as they share the biblical truths of God with those who have eyes to see and ears to hear with a desire to really find the truth.

Outshined can parrot her Snow buddy and defend everything he says no matter how ridiculous.... but that will not endear you to anybody.

Stephan--the weakness that the Tanners point out in Mormon fall on deaf ears for one simple and logically inescapable reason:

Their "born-again" insistence on the validity of the bible and Jesus' divinity rests on the same FOUNDATION as Mormonism does---THAT IS---Faith in something for which there is insufficient tangible, scientific evidence to justify on any basis besides FAITH--which is, in the case of the born-agains, Jesus's resurrection; and in the case of Mormonism, Joseph Smith's first vision and angelic visitations.

Yes, there is "reason" to believe both; no, there is insufficient evidence to compel belief in either.

The Tanners beliefs that are based on faith and the Mormons beliefs that are based on faith that you are arguing about is a non-sequiter argument. Whether Joseph Smith really had a First Vision and saw God and angels or whether Jesus Christ was really resurrected is not the issue. They are interesting things to discuss, but are things that can neither be proved or disproved.

What Mormons believe that can be proved false is what is disconcerting and troublesome. The Book of Abraham is an absolute proven fraud.....all Egyptologists that I am aware of agree about what content is found on the Egyptian papyri scrolls. They are common funeral burial scrolls........They were not written by the Old Testament Patriarch Abraham and in fact the scrolls only date back to around the time of Jesus Christ and could not possibly have been written by Abraham..........The scrolls don't contain on them anywhere the text of The Book of Abraham found in the Pearl of Great Price............The scrolls don't talk about the life of Abraham or his teachings.....THe scrolls talk about a deceased Egyptian that goes to the underworld to be judged by Osiris, ect......and yet Mormons still believe the lie(Yes, false doctrines Mr. Snow).

You cannot prove the Bible is not what it claims to be..........of course you cannot prove that the Bible is what it claims to be either, but on the things you can prove about it....the Bible has great credibility. Scholars have discovered that there really was a King David as the Bible claimed and that many of the cities and towns described in the Bible still exist today, there really was a Peter and Paul who walked the earth and you can go to Mars Hill and see that place for yourself where Paul taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes...........there is alot that we take on faith and that is the whole point of having faith...........the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If those things could be proved then faith would be unnecessary because you would have tangible concrete knowledge. God can reveal truths to your mind as an answer to prayer as unrational as that seems to the unbeliever, but that does not bother me at all if you disagree. We no doubt will have to agree to disagree on many issues.

[Outshined]

Thanks for the kind words about my site, Lindy!

As for Stephan's post, nothing Latter-day Saints believe can be proven to be false. Period. Bold lettering or not, he seems to be ignoring much of the LDS scholarship on the BOA. See my site for several links to BOA-related sites. (subtle plug)

If he considers it to be "proof" that our beliefs are false, swell, I don't depend on others for theological support. That's why we have so many denominations in the world. Find one you like.

-Outshined

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 18 2004, 10:52 AM

The Book of Abraham is an absolute proven fraud

This is a shining example of a false statement. Some hold the opinion that it is false, but I've seen no credible source who claims to have proven such.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 18 2004, 11:00 AM

See my site for several links to BOA-related sites. (subtle plug)

Never mind, I'll save you the time.

BOA Links

My Egyptology Paul Osborne's excellent site

The Book Of Abraham Project

Check 'em out, y'all!

(Should this be another thread?)

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 17 2004, 03:24 PM

One point about the Tanners and their honesty: They were the first to discover that Dee Jay Nelson was a fraud, but hid the information because he was the star witness in some of their books. Look it up; start with "They Lie In Wait To Deceive", volume 1.

Wrong!

http://exmormon.8m.com/browns2.html

An excerpt from the link above says this:

(I also have the book “Can The Browns Save Joseph Smith?” It’s been awhile since I’ve read it but the words do sound familiar)

<span style='color:red'>The Tanners shortly responded to these charges in a book they wrote in 1981 titled "Can The Browns Save Joseph Smith?" I'm about to reprint a large portion of this book, because to be be honest with you, the Tanners are very capable of defending themselves and I find it best to just let them speak for themselves. I have received permission from the Tanners to quote from this book, about the charges made against them by the Browns. The reply to the quotes above, the Tanners wrote:

While the Browns would have their readers believe that we covered up the situation until they and Moody Press forced us "to come clean," the truth of the matter is that we commenced our own investigation into Nelson's credentials as soon as we became convinced there was a problem. The results of that investigation were published immediately in the Salt Lake Messager.

The Browns have reproduced our letter to Mr. Nelson, written March 11-12, 1980, but have cut out a very important part (see pages 256-258 of their book). The portion omitted contains this statement: "If it turns out you do not have a Dr.'s degree, honesty would demand that I make a public statement to that effect. Otherwise, I would find myself in the same position as the Mormon leaders who concealed the true identity of 'Dr. Webb.'" On page 2 of the same letter we indicated that as early as March 3, 1980 we were planning on turning the matter "over to the Associated Press," but changed our mind when we heard that a man from Arizona claimed the "missing university had apparently been located." This report, of course, turned out to be incorrect. On page 6 of this letter the reader will find this statement:

"In any case, I feel it is my obligation to make this information available to the public. I will, therefore, probably be printing hundreds or even thousands of copies of this letter to distribute to the general public. I am convinced that our case against the Book of Abraham is absolutely devastating, and I would not want to weaken it in any way by trying to cover up or remain silent concerning such an important matter."

By March 20, 1980 we had learned that Pacific Northwestern University was really a diploma mill and wrote to Nelson that his "claim to a doctor's degree in anthropology cannot be substantiated. Even though we have never made this claim, we feel that it would not be right for us to continue selling your booklets." Just about one week after we wrote this letter to Nelson we were contacted by Charles F. Trentelman of the Ogden Standard-Examiner. Mr. Trentelman had heard that Nelson's credentials had been questioned and asked us if we could throw any light on the subject. We informed him of all we had learned about Pacific Northwestern University, and on March 29, 1980 he wrote the following:

"In his letter to the Tanners, Nelson describes contacting Pacific Northwestern University in 1977 and inquiring about obtaining a doctorate."

"The degree was granted after taking some courses and submitting a thesis, Nelson says in the letter. But the school, Nelson admitted, was not accredited."

"Mrs. Tanner told the Standard-Examiner she and her husband tried to find out about Pacific Northwestern University and learned from federal authorities in Seattle that it had been ordered to shut down, although no charges were brought against it."

"But, she said, the Tanners are cutting themselves loose from Nelson, stopping sales of his pamphlets and discontinuing all support of him or his lectures." (Standard Examiner, March 29, 1980)

Immediately after Mr. Trentelman's article appeared in the Ogden Standard-Examiner, we published the 42nd issue of the Salt Lake Messager. This was printed in April 1980 and fully exposed Nelson's deception with regard to the doctor's degree A copy of this paper was mailed to the Moody Bible Library, and there was no attempt to hide the matter from anyone. As a matter of fact, we printed somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 copies of this issue.

You can read more in detail from the above link.

M.

[Lindy]

Yes...........there is alot that we take on faith and that is the whole point of having faith...........the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen. If those things could be proved then faith would be unnecessary because you would have tangible concrete knowledge. God can reveal truths to your mind as an answer to prayer as unrational as that seems to the unbeliever, but that does not bother me at all if you disagree. We no doubt will have to agree to disagree on many issues.

As before Stephen, you say some great things....but the truth that you have found, and the truth that others on this board have found, are just different ways of looking at things. Faith is a wonderful thing, and it should be the key that binds Christians together....not to rip them apart.

And I think you have found another sparring buddy with Outshined :)

Please....by all means..."agree to disagree on many issues".......it is fun and very informative to watch as the debate deepens.

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Outshined+Mar 18 2004, 10:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Outshined @ Mar 18 2004, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Stephen@Mar 18 2004, 10:52 AM

The Book of Abraham is an absolute proven fraud

This is a shining example of a false statement. Some hold the opinion that it is false, but I've seen no credible source who claims to have proven such.

Egyptologists are in agreement on what the scrolls actually are and what they say. They are common funeral burial scrolls.

Joseph Smith claimed to be able to read Egyptian......whether he meant by God revealing the knowledge to him on what was on the scrolls....or he meant that he had the knowledge and physical ability to read and translate the Egpytian hieroglphic characters it does not matter.........the end result should be the same. Joseph Smith should have been able to accurately write down what was on the scrolls. Joseph Smith in his life time challenged people to prove him wrong about what was on the scrolls. Well Joseph Smith has been proven wrong although long after his death. The Book of Abraham text is not anywhere on the scrolls and yet it was Joseph Smith that claimed he got the Book of Abraham text from off the scrolls. The facts remain that the Book of Abraham text is not on the Egyptian scrolls and the scrolls actually talk about somebody named Horus that goes to the underworld to be judged by the Egyptian god Osiris, ect.

Yes.............The Book of Abraham is a fraud plain and simple because it is not at all what Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church claim that it is. If Outshined wishes to continue to bury his head in the sand on this issue its of no concern to me.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 18 2004, 11:24 AM

Yes.............The Book of Abraham is a fraud plain and simple because it is not at all what Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church claim that it is. If Outshined wishes to continue to bury his head in the sand on this issue its of no concern to me.

Sorry, but the facts I've read don't back you up. Critics like you choose to look at one side, and "bury their heads in the sand" on the other point of view. I guess we have something in common, don't we? See, most Latter-day Saints don't believe he translated it literally, and many believe that most of the BOA was lost, as records indicate much more scroll than we have.

There is so much more to it than you are owning up to.

Check out the links I posted while you're at it, if you are of a mind to.

-Outshined

[Outshined]

Maureen, thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 18 2004, 11:24 AM

[Egyptologists are in agreement on what the scrolls actually are and what they say. They are common funeral burial scrolls..

Which Egytpologists?