Keep Your Eye On The Pentecostals

[Snow]

http://www.churchexecutive.com/News.asp?Article=1694

NEW YORK CITY-A fourth Pentecostal denomination has joined the top 25 largest churches list, reflecting the continuing increase in the number of adherents to Pentecostal traditions in the country, according to the National Council of Churches' "2004 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), an American-born church, continues to grow remarkably, remaining the fifth largest church in the nation. Among the 15 largest churches, the LDS also reports the highest rate of growth at 1.88 percent in the last year, virtually the same as its previous growth rate.

[Tr2]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), an American-born church, continues to grow remarkably, remaining the fifth largest church in the nation. Among the 15 largest churches, the LDS also reports the highest rate of growth at 1.88 percent in the last year, virtually the same as its previous growth rate.

So if it is growing fast that must make it good.

AIDS, fatherless children, and crime rates are growing fast too.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 17 2004, 11:57 AM

http://www.churchexecutive.com/News.asp?Article=1694

NEW YORK CITY-A fourth Pentecostal denomination has joined the top 25 largest churches list, reflecting the continuing increase in the number of adherents to Pentecostal traditions in the country, according to the National Council of Churches' "2004 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), an American-born church, continues to grow remarkably, remaining the fifth largest church in the nation. Among the 15 largest churches, the LDS also reports the highest rate of growth at 1.88 percent in the last year, virtually the same as its previous growth rate.

I have read that the Seventh-Day Adventists started at about the same time as the Mormon church, and has grown to about the same size. Should we necessarily make a big point about the size of the church? Does it say anything REALLY important that can't be said of the SDA's?

[Guest Starsky]

I don't think might makes right.

Besides...it is an individual thing....membership doesn't save or exalt.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 18 2004, 07:41 PM

I don't think might makes right.

Besides...it is an individual thing....membership doesn't save or exalt.

Amen. Also, comparing crime and disease to Christ is totally naive. Try harder next to come up with something RELATIVE. That's what's funny about Mainstream Christianity. They say no one "demonination" is needed for Salvation, yet you must believe in Christ. So then the issue is not Christ, it is belief, just as long as one holds true to their belief in a Christ-like figure then by that merit they should be saved. So you either have to belong or you don't. You see what I am getting here, can't ride the fence. No man can serve two masters.

[Cal]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 18 2004, 06:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 18 2004, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 18 2004, 07:41 PM

I don't think might makes right.

Besides...it is an individual thing....membership doesn't save or exalt.

Amen. Also, comparing crime and disease to Christ is totally naive. Try harder next to come up with something RELATIVE. That's what's funny about Mainstream Christianity. They say no one "demonination" is needed for Salvation, yet you must believe in Christ. So then the issue is not Christ, it is belief, just as long as one holds true to their belief in a Christ-like figure then by that merit they should be saved. So you either have to belong or you don't. You see what I am getting here, can't ride the fence. No man can serve two masters.

Stream of consciousness---you address 2 or 3 separate issues and didn't develop any? At least acknowledge the fact.

1) Is church membership required for salvation?

2) Do born-agains have any LESS basis for their position than mormons? What is the argument that establishes it?

3) Serving 2 masters? The issue isn't sin v. rightousness, it's one position v. another on what is required for salvation. Your use of the 2 masters metaphore isn't really applicable as it ASSUMES that one position is correct, when we haven't (in the discussion) yet decided. That's called "ending the discussion before it begins".

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 18 2004, 03:21 PM

So if it is growing fast that must make it good.

AIDS, fatherless children, and crime rates are growing fast too.

Has anyone taken the time to mention how incredibly smart you are. Who but you would make the connection between the rates of growth of those who worship Christ and AIDS, fatherless children and crime.

Give us a peek behind the mind of the man with such insights. What makes you tick, tick?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 18 2004, 04:42 PM

Should we necessarily make a big point about the size of the church?

Isn't it a matter of Church teachings, at least prior Church teaching that the Church would roll forward and eventually encompass the earth and then isn't such progress a fullfillment of something or other? Besides, we were formerly an oppessed people. Part of our collective devotion was forged by the Trident types of old. Size and power correlate. If the Clippers won the championship, they'd be kinda happy about it.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 18 2004, 07:14 PM

1) Is church membership required for salvation?

Yes and no -- define salvation.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 18 2004, 07:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 18 2004, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 18 2004, 07:14 PM

1) Is church membership required for salvation?

Yes and no -- define salvation.

salvation= Kobe Bryant, 4th quarter, lakers down by 10, 3 minutes to go, SALVATION!

[Tr2]

Has anyone taken the time to mention how incredibly smart you are. Who but you would make the connection between the rates of growth of those who worship Christ and AIDS, fatherless children and crime.

Give us a peek behind the mind of the man with such insights. What makes you tick, tick?

You were pointing out the fact that the LDs church is growing rapidly. You, and others, have suggested in the past that because it is growing rapidly this automatically makes it a good thing. I simply gave you a dose of the reality of the world we live in, or at least the world I live in.

Part of our collective devotion was forged by the Trident types of old

So you practice your religion just to spite somebody else? What a stupid reason to do anything.

Besides, we were formerly an oppessed people

When your religion is put through 300 years of persecution where you can be executed by your government for claiming to follow it, then you will get sympathy.

QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 18 2004, 07:14 PM)

1) Is church membership required for salvation?

Yes and no -- define salvation.

So a person has to be part of an institution, that doubles as a large business, for salvation? Didn't Jesus once flip over your tables?

[Snow]

K Trident,

Here's some serious answers to your 4 points.

1. pointed out that the Pentecostals are growing more rapidly than the Mormons. You are pentecostal-ISH yourself. It isn't a measure of truth but it is a measure of how many people are able to develop a rewarding connection to God through such and such movement. Good for whoever is able to follow a religion that makes thier lives better.

2. The point about oppression is that collective persecution forges unity. There is quantitative and qualitative difference to Mormons. Some socialogist refer to Mormons as a seperate and distinct "people" - not based on color or nationality, but based on their identification with the religon and culture. Unity is powerful. It is not a minor point.

3. Maybe you are unfamiliar with Govenor Bogg's (of Missouri) extermination order that allowed Mormons to be legally shot on sight. Fortunately not everyone was as evil minded as Boggs to actually follow through on what he intended but Mormons have, by modern Western standards, an unusual history of suffering and persecution. To compare them to the ancient Christian Church is not really the point. Most Christian's lives are not noticibly affected by the persecution suffered by early Christians, it doesn't define them the way our recent heritage defines us.

4. Belonging to an institution is not the point being addressed in the salvation issue. It is a matter of whether ordinances, such as baptism, are required and whether authority, held by the clergy of the institution are required to perform the ordinance. But specific to the question of defining salvation... that means different things to Mormons. For example, we believe that you are going to be saved.