Law of Consent: Doctrine

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Actually, this is similar to Catholic Organization except that the end of the authority lies with the Parish Priest and his appointed lay ministers. Therefore, a Parish Priest and his lay ministers reserve the authority to apply their own personal spiritual inspiration over the Parish to which they have the authority. Each individual Catholic receives their own spiritual inspiration in the application of Catholic doctrines in their own lives.

In the LDS organization, priesthood power is held by all LDS members who made and are keeping their covenants. Priesthood authority is held by male members who made and are keeping their covenants to preside over their own families. Therefore, the authority that the Parish Priest holds over the entire Parish is similar to the authority of a covenanted father who is a worthy priesthood holder to preside over his home.

And just like a Parish Priest cannot decree anything contrary to the edict of the Vatican, a Father presiding over his family cannot decree anything contrary to established truths from the First Presidency.

It sounds like you are saying that a Catholic can use contraception if they are inspired to do so?

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Now, as far as AC goes... this is not a difference on personal revelation. This is a difference in doctrine. The Catholics lack the teaching of pre-mortal existence. This is the missing doctrine that caused the different views between Catholics and LDS on AC.

Catholics believe that man is created by God during conception - both body and spirit. The LDS do not believe this. The LDS believe that God created the body during conception but the Spirit is eternal. It existed before the formation of the earth. It is pre-mortal Spirits that waged war in the heavens to determine which path to follow - Jesus Christ's or Lucifer's. One part of these pre-mortal spirits were foreordained to specific tasks in the Plan for our Salvation, a second part followed the plan with Jesus Christ, a third part followed Lucifer and therefore refused mortality. All of us who are born on the earth chose in our pre-mortal exitence to be given mortal bodies and go through mortality.

Because of this, the LDS believe that the Spirit joins the Body sometime after conception and before birth. The exact time the Spirit enters is not known. Therefore, unlike the Catholic faith, the LDS faith do not believe that all miscarried babies are spiritual souls, therefore, AC, and even abortion, is not necessarily the death of a spirit. Hence, abortion in case of rape may be acceptable in the LDS faith as authorized by the bishop through his power of discernment.

And how does that work in the case of rape? Does the bishop discern that because the baby was conceived through rape it doesn't have a spirit?

[Guest]

It sounds like you are saying that a Catholic can use contraception if they are inspired to do so?

Nope. Why? Because the VATICAN says no. This is what I said:

And just like a Parish Priest cannot decree anything contrary to the edict of the Vatican, a Father presiding over his family cannot decree anything contrary to established truths from the First Presidency.

That goes for each individual Catholic/LDS as well. Therefore, as a faithful Catholic your personal revelation is bound by the truths declared by the Catholic Church.

Now, if you meet a person on the street and you feel the Holy Spirit's inspiration to take her to wife then ask her if she'll marry you. There's nothing the Vatican says to prevent you from doing so if both of you are qualified to marry under the Catholic Sacrament of Matrimony.

Edited June 13, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

And how does that work in the case of rape? Does the bishop discern that because the baby was conceived through rape it doesn't have a spirit?

Not in all cases. The bishop may be spiritually inspired to advice the woman to bring the baby to term. In this case, performing an abortion regardless of the circumstances of conception is sinful. In the same manner, a woman who does not seek the counsel of the bishop in seeking an abortion is going against her covenants regardless of the circumstances of conception.

Edited June 13, 2013 by anatess

[Anddenex]

And how does that work in the case of rape? Does the bishop discern that because the baby was conceived through rape it doesn't have a spirit?

Added clarification according to Anatess's words as written in her post, "Hence, abortion in case of rape may be acceptable in the LDS faith as authorized by the bishop through his power of discernment."

The bishop doesn't authorize any abortion. The choice of abortion is between the Lord and the couple, or woman if single. The couple, or woman, are advised to seek counsel with their leaders. This may include the bishop, the stake president and if the person requests I wouldn't be surprised if area authorities may provide counsel. The decision however, utlimately falls upon the woman, or the couple. A bishop may counsel a couple, or single woman, to not have an abortion, however the decision ultimately lies with the individual. A bishop may even give counsel incorrectly, which again, the ultimate decision is between the individual and the Lord.

In answer to your last question, how in the world did you interpret Anatess's words as saying a bishop may discern a spirit isn't within a baby as a result of rape? A bit of a stretch in question.

More than just when the spirit enters the body is taken into consideration -- what is taken into consideration? -- that depends on each circumstance.

We do not know when the spirit enters the body. It may be at conception. It may be after three months. It may be after four months.

The only scriptural evidence is when John the Baptist leaped inside his mother's womb.

[Just_A_Guy]

I don't see the logic in that, they gave their disciples only some of Christ's authority but withheld the authority to have authority? It seems like in Acts the Church functioned differently than that.

Withheld the authority to have authority over the Church as a whole, yes. For example, Paul was clearly an ecclesiastical superior to Timothy. The author of the Apocalypse was an ecclesiastical superior to the bishops of the seven churches.

Almost, except it seems to me that the LDS have there own say in personal matters when applying doctrine to their lives and no situation is the same. So it's almost like each LDS household teaches its own truth in accordance with what is happening to them at the time.

To some degree, that's a fair observation. An LDS leader recently offered an exposition on the relationship between personal revelation and ecclesiastical authority, which you may find interesting. It's online here.

On the other hand, I think you downplay the effect that the united voice of the Church's leadership councils are supposed to have on the conduct of the average Church member (and to be fair, lots of Mormons do this too).

Moreover, I think the issue of what we call "cafeteria Mormonism" crosses denominational boundaries. As a Mormon missionary, I met plenty of Brazilian Catholics whose relationship to their mother Church seemed to match what you describe about some Mormons above.

I see the difference between the LDS position on artificial contraception and the Catholic position is that in the LDS view AC is morally admissable if used in the context of marriage and its use condoned and supervised by the priesthood holder of the house. The Catholic view being that it is never admissable in any circumstance because it goes against life, it denies God into the marital act of conjugal love.

Sure; on that and many issues the Catholic Church seems to prefer (and I don't mean this disparagingly) a more blanket approach; while Mormonism leaves more to be worked out between the individual supplicant and God.

[Guest]

Added clarification according to Anatess's words as written in her post, "Hence, abortion in case of rape may be acceptable in the LDS faith as authorized by the bishop through his power of discernment."

The bishop doesn't authorize any abortion. The choice of abortion is between the Lord and the couple, or woman if single. The couple, or woman, are advised to seek counsel with their leaders. This may include the bishop, the stake president and if the person requests I wouldn't be surprised if area authorities may provide counsel. The decision however, utlimately falls upon the woman, or the couple. A bishop may counsel a couple, or single woman, to not have an abortion, however the decision ultimately lies with the individual. A bishop may even give counsel incorrectly, which again, the ultimate decision is between the individual and the Lord.

In answer to your last question, how in the world did you interpret Anatess's words as saying a bishop may discern a spirit isn't within a baby as a result of rape? A bit of a stretch in question.

More than just when the spirit enters the body is taken into consideration -- what is taken into consideration? -- that depends on each circumstance.

We do not know when the spirit enters the body. It may be at conception. It may be after three months. It may be after four months.

The only scriptural evidence is when John the Baptist leaped inside his mother's womb.

Anddenex, thanks for the clarification. Yes, I mistakenly used the word authorize as opposed to counsel. But, your post can be misleading when juxtaposed with Catholic viewpoint. Yes, the ultimate decision is between the individual and the Lord but it must still go with established parameters. I guess the best way to explain this is to just go ahead and give the actual position as published by the Church (bold mine):

Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.

DCE concluded that the bishop discerns the presence of a spiritual soul in the womb because the Catholic reasoning for the "no abortion is moral, not even in cases of rape, incest, etc." is because willful abortion is plain and simply willfully ending spiritual life in ALL cases. Rape, therefore, is not enough justification to end an innocent soul's mortal existence. So, for it to make sense in the Catholic perspective (Catholics teach that there is no individual "choice" involved in the creation - it is all God's choice to give the individual life, and in the case of abortion, man's choice ends it), the terminated fetus must not have spirit...

Edited June 13, 2013 by anatess