Questioning Assumptions

[Cal]

Is it possible to obtain the satifying emotional effects of religion without adhereing to a rigid set of assumptions about what religion has to be? IOW--can one maintain a religous faith and still modify, from time to time, the assumptions he makes about the dogma of that religion?

This is a question I posted on another thread, and would like to get feedback on along these lines.

Let me elaborate a little on my initial question: In talking to Snow, PD, Peace, Curvette, and several others, it several things came to my mind:

I am dealing with very sincere, thoughtful and honest people, who really want to find emotional "oneness" in their religious perspectives.

I also notice that there is a line of thinking that shows up on this forum that says something like "I have a set of beliefs that are unalterable, set in stone, and don't anyone dare mess with them" (well, if you don't want your beliefs messed with, this is a bad place to inhabit. )

Having said that, IMHO experience has shown quite few of us that being unable to question earlier learning or assumptions is an intellectually dangerous position to take. The pitfalls of staying quagmired in outdated assumptions can be seen throughout history in and out of the LDS church. In order to stay grounded in reality we have to update our information and be willing to make tough decisions about what we can continue to believe and stay intellectually honest.

I suspect that some of us are fearful that if we question ANYTHING we have come to believe about mormonism, that we will have to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", IOW abandon completely our belief in the church; and that would be so emotionally unsettling, not to mention socially dissasterous, that we can't bear the thought, so we find ways to igore new information so as to preserve our emotional status quo.

Is it possible to maintain religious satisfaction, while being willing modify one's beliefs in the face of convincing evidence to the contrary?

[Guest curvette]

(Q) Is it possible to obtain the satifying emotional effects of religion without adhereing to a rigid set of assumptions about what religion has to be?(Q)

Yes! But not without a lot of pain, soulsearching, and trial and error. I've found out that CHANGE is very basic to human nature. Even in the church, things are ALWAYS changing. President Hinkley says, "Do your best." A few years later, he adds, "Now, Do your VERY best." Teaching programs change, missionary discussions change, schedules change, change, change, change...

So, WHY is our view towards religion expected to NEVER change? We may gain testimonies of new truths, and lose testimonies of things we previously believed to be true. Why is this seen as such a terrible thing? There is so much freedom in allowing our belief system to evolve just as everything else in life evolves. I do believe in certain universal truths. Unjustified murder is bad. Abuse is bad. Rape is bad. Infringing on other people's rights is bad. Love is good. Kindness and service are good. You get my drift. It is possible to find happiness in the church, even when we don't believe many of the things we learn there.

[Cal]

Curvette--that was a super posting---thank you

[Guest Starsky]

I totally agree with Curvette....

Also....your post was very insightful Cal. It is true...there are those who can't stand the slightest little bit of individual thinking....it all has to be rote..

But remember this....where there is no vision...the people perish. Too often the masses allow one to do all the thinking, envisioning, and praying for them.... and they become hostile, judgmental, and self-righteous because they believe they are on the high ground..

Sort of like the Pharasees in Christ's day.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 21 2004, 03:09 PM

I totally agree with Curvette....

Also....your post was very insightful Cal. It is true...there are those who can't stand the slightest little bit of individual thinking....it all has to be rote..

But remember this....where there is no vision...the people perish. Too often the masses allow one to do all the thinking, envisioning, and praying for them....

Peace--also a very good post--I totally agree with that. :)

BTW--totally unrelated--how do you post an avatar?

[Guest Starsky]

BTW--totally unrelated--how do you post an avatar?

Up at the top of the page where you find the PM thing...it will say...MY CONTROLS...go into that and it should have stuff you can change your avatar settings...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 21 2004, 03:15 PM

BTW--totally unrelated--how do you post an avatar?

Up at the top of the page where you find the PM thing...it will say...MY CONTROLS...go into that and it should have stuff you can change your avatar settings...

Thanks!

[Guest Starsky]

Hey jazzy avatar Cal! :)

[porterrockwell]

All I have to say is this. If you know that you were created and given this probationary state by a loving, caring Heavenly Father...one that knew you better than you know yourself. Who loved us so much he even provided us a way back by sacrificing his Only-Begotten to a pack of ravenous wolves of the world. Don't you think the revelation and standards that he sends to us through the prophet is for our own good?

I believe that returning that love is being obedient to his call, and not taking for granted the atonement. I believe that the law we live on this Earth will determine(provided we live believing in the Grace of God) our placement in the next life. The Celestial Law prepares us for the Celestial Kingdom, and so on down the line. Knowing all this, why would I really want to be disobedient.

Now, I hear all the time, that we who are "staunch" and unquestioning don't think for ourselves. But, did my conclusion to absolute obedience not come from me "thinking" for myself. Granted it was also in harmony with the HG. It's not that I haven't challenged things, but once I know the source of our "standards", I can't see why I would want to walk outside of them.

My dream in life is to be as God is, even if I never get my own "planet", or get have billions of spirit babies(although that would be nice), just to live in harmony with his highest law is what I am positive will bring us happiness BEYOND the vail, when physical/mortal agendas will really cease to have importance like they do here. So I tend to ignore temporal "hungers" and focus on what makes my spirit happy. But that is just me.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 21 2004, 03:40 PM

All I have to say is this. If you know that you were created and given this probationary state by a loving, caring Heavenly Father...one that knew you better than you know yourself. He loved us so much he even provided us a way back by sacrificing his Only-Begotten to a pack of ravenous wolves of the world. Don't you think the revelation and standards that he sends to us through the prophet is for our own good. I believe that returning that love is being obedient to his call, and not taking for granted the atonement. I believe that the law we live on this Earth will determine(provided we live believing in the Grace of God) our placement in the next life. The Celestial Law prepares us for the Celestial Kingdom, and so on down the line. Knowing all this, why would I really want to be disobedient. Now, I hear all the time, that we who are "staunch" and unquestioning don't think for ourselves. But, did my conclusion to absolute obedience not come from me "thinking" for myself. Granted it was also in harmony with the HG. It's not that I haven't challenged things, but once I know the source of our "standards", I can't see why I would want to walk outside of them. My dream in life is to be as God is, even if I never get my own "planet", just to live in harmony with his highest law is what I am positive will bring us happiness BEYOND the vail, when physical/mortal agendas will really cease to have importance like they do here. So I tend to ignore temporal "hungers" and focus on what makes my spirit happy. But that is just me.

I believe we are to be obedient...but first to the Spirit through personal revelation.

Let me share an experience...I shared on another board that my son, who was 20, and had decided that he didn't want to go on a mission because it wasn't for him....was now going to get married...in the temple and he felt it was right for him.

He did all of this through fasting and prayer...but someone else on that board told me that my son wasn't doing right....and that the prophet commanded that every worthy young man go on a mission and that my son had no right to receive the revelation for his own life...if it wasn't following the prophet's edicts right to the letter.

I'm sorry...but if you knew this young man...my son, you would understand why the Lord chose for him not to go on a mission and helped him find his eternal companion. He is extremely self-contained...mature, both spiritual and emotionally...he has held a full time time since he was 16 and finished on his own a highschool diploma in one years time....he is a finish carpenter, and has always set his standards way high.

He is always the first to lend a helping hand and listening ear to troubled people around him....His heart is bigger than his 6'4" frame would suggest....

He knows the gospel well and has learned to receive answers to his prayers....he has never been well accepted among his LDS peers because of all of these qualities....they were always intimidated by him....

So...as well as it sounds for some to just follow because the prophet says....and condemn others because they found their own path through personal revelation....it really doesn't set well with me.

It was our ward who sent out 11 missionaries during a two year period (one being my oldest son) and had all but my son and the only sister missionary finish their missions.

1 elder came home 3 days after he entered the MTC.

2 came home with sicknesses after 5 and 7 months.

1 came home with a heart defect that developed while in Mexico. 1 came home with a knee injury and had to have extensive surgeries...

2 others just didn't want to stay and bailed out after a couple of months.

1 came home because he couldn't learn the language of his mission...and didn't want to be reassigned.

1 elder became sick in the mtc and was in the hospital off and on...his parents kept stressing that he had to stay out....they didn't want to add to the growing number of failures in our ward during that 2 year period.....they even got him into his country somewhere down in South America......but 4 months later he was near death and had to come home anyway...

1 received a call to Idaho and his father was so disappointed in the call he kept complaining about it....the parents were dvorced, and after about 3 months this kid wrote his mom to send him money to fly home...and she did....her husband/the high counseler was the one insisting the kid go on a mission in the first place.

So....a mission isn't for every worthy young man...Everyone of those kids that 'failed' had mountains to climb because of the way people looked at them as 'failures'. They will be climbing those mountains for the rest of their lives....where as the ones who didn't go because they 'chose' another path...didn't have and haven't had the hardship to overcome.

Our bishops' son happened to be among this group...but he felt he was supposed join the Navy instead of going on a mission. He did...and he didn't get have the hard time from the ward, as the one's who failed after going on a mission.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 21 2004, 03:40 PM

Hey jazzy avatar Cal! :)

Peace--thanks--my daughter found it for me on Google--she finds the weirdest things--I'm a guitarist so I guess it fits.

[porterrockwell]

I didn't say don't look for personal revelation, I agree. What some people don't understand is that your son, may need to have children and be married in the temple to worthy in the Lord's eyes to serve either in the future when he is much older or beyond the vail. I have a feeling it is the latter. I mean seriously, there may be a family that never got to hear the Gospel that lived a great life, followed high standards, and may very well need a shining spirit that followed and succeeded in the Lord's plan to show them the truth of the Gospel. It's just like my counselor said to me "Do you think that if the Lord told you that after all you did to be obedient that you would get sent home for something that was out of your control, you would really have wanted to reach for a mission?" I answered..."Good point!". And it was, I recieved revelation that I NEED to finish this mission, just as your son recieved revelation to get married. He has a plan, and the point is being obedient to his will, noone should question personal revelation. But going off and sinning is not part of his will. In that respect I don't question things. Part of the Lord's will was for your son to get married. So, he followed it, and for that he will be blessed. Plain and Simple...at least to me.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 21 2004, 04:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 21 2004, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 21 2004, 03:40 PM

All I have to say is this.  If you know that you were created and given this probationary state by a loving, caring Heavenly Father...one that knew you better than you know yourself.  He loved us so much he even provided us a way back by sacrificing his Only-Begotten to a pack of ravenous wolves of the world.  Don't you think the revelation and standards that he sends to us through the prophet is for our own good.  I believe that returning that love is being obedient to his call, and not taking for granted the atonement.  I believe that the law we live on this Earth will determine(provided we live believing in the Grace of God) our placement in the next life.  The Celestial Law prepares us for the Celestial Kingdom, and so on down the line.  Knowing all this, why would I really want to be disobedient.  Now, I hear all the time, that we who are "staunch" and unquestioning don't think for ourselves.  But, did my conclusion to absolute obedience not come from me "thinking" for myself.  Granted it was also in harmony with the HG.  It's not that I haven't challenged things, but once I know the source of our "standards", I can't see why I would want to walk outside of them.  My dream in life is to be as God is, even if I never get my own "planet", just to live in harmony with his highest law is what I am positive will bring us happiness BEYOND the vail, when physical/mortal agendas will really cease to have importance like they do here.  So I tend to ignore temporal "hungers" and focus on what makes my spirit happy.  But that is just me.

I believe we are to be obedient...but first to the Spirit through personal revelation.

Let me share an experience...I shared on another board that my son, who was 20, and had decided that he didn't want to go on a mission because it wasn't for him....was now going to get married...in the temple and he felt it was right for him.

He did all of this through fasting and prayer...but someone else on that board told me that my son wasn't doing right....and that the prophet commanded that every worthy young man go on a mission and that my son had no right to receive the revelation for his own life...if it wasn't following the prophet's edicts right to the letter.

I'm sorry...but if you knew this young man...my son, you would understand why the Lord chose for him not to go on a mission and helped him find his eternal companion. He is extremely self-contained...mature, both spiritual and emotionally...he has held a full time time since he was 16 and finished on his own a highschool diploma in one years time....he is a finish carpenter, and has always set his standards way high.

He is always the first to lend a helping hand and listening ear to troubled people around him....His heart is bigger than his 6'4" frame would suggest....

He knows the gospel well and has learned to receive answers to his prayers....he has never been well accepted among his LDS peers because of all of these qualities....they were always intimidated by him....

So...as well as it sounds for some to just follow because the prophet says....and condemn others because they found their own path through personal revelation....it really doesn't set well with me.

It was our ward who sent out 11 missionaries during a two year period (one being my oldest son) and had all but my son and the only sister missionary finish their missions.

1 elder came home 3 days after he entered the MTC.

2 came home with sicknesses after 5 and 7 months.

1 came home with a heart defect that developed while in Mexico. 1 came home with a knee injury and had to have extensive surgeries...

2 others just didn't want to stay and bailed out after a couple of months.

1 came home because he couldn't learn the language of his mission...and didn't want to be reassigned.

1 elder became sick in the mtc and was in the hospital off and on...his parents kept stressing that he had to stay out....they didn't want to add to the growing number of failures in our ward during that 2 year period.....they even got him into his country somewhere down in South America......but 4 months later he was near death and had to come home anyway...

1 received a call to Idaho and his father was so disappointed in the call he kept complaining about it....the parents were dvorced, and after about 3 months this kid wrote his mom to send him money to fly home...and she did....her husband/the high counseler was the one insisting the kid go on a mission in the first place.

So....a mission isn't for every worthy young man...Everyone of those kids that 'failed' had mountains to climb because of the way people looked at them as 'failures'. They will be climbing those mountains for the rest of their lives....where as the ones who didn't go because they 'chose' another path...didn't have and haven't had the hardship to overcome.

Our bishops' son happened to be among this group...but he felt he was supposed join the Navy instead of going on a mission. He did...and he didn't get have the hard time from the ward, as the one's who failed after going on a mission.

Peace--your story is a very down to earth and realistic view of the mission thing. I think it is a tragedy that the church members stigmatize young people who chose not to fulfill a mission they start out in. You would think that the GA's would be sensitive to the plight of these people, and counsel church members NOT TO JUDGE those who chose to leave missions early. I have never heard such a pronouncement, have you? I wonder how many of those who are ostracized from their wards leave the church all together as a result? And would they have left had they been welcomed with open arms by these "rightous" ward members, instead of shunned?

If the purpose of a mission is to prepare young people for continued chruch service, why does the church allow these people to be shunned? How much church service are they going to render by being labeled as failures?

I'm going to make on of my more negative speculations: The GA's don't really care if wards ostracize failed missionaries because it provides an "incentive" of fear that keeps a lot of others from quitting.

I know, that sounds awfully cynical of me, but, it comes from my mistrust of church governance at the highest level--I've just heard of, read, and experienced first hand the high-handed arrogance that has been known to accompany church authority. It takes a very independent minded and charitable GA person to go against what is against the overall good of the church in favor of the overall good of the individual---and this issue illustrates exactly how that can happen.

I can hear the discussion now ---" should we issue an order to bishops to announce that we are to treat missionaries, who come home from their missions early, with the greatest of respect, irrespective of the reason they came home"

"I have a question, wouldn't that encourage other missionaries, who are having a hard time, to come home early?" OK, nix the first idea.

[Guest estump]

Cal,

many are ostrasized for not going on missions. My oldest and youngest brother respectively. My oldest brother is no longer active and I believe it is because of the way he was treated. The girl's thought he wasn't good enough and his peers pressured him to the point of distaste. He didn't need that. My youngest could still go, but he has some things he needs to work out first. He may never go, but the guilt he feels because he can't go right now is crazy. I wish I could make him understand that it is 'okay'. However I know he will probably be treated the same as my older brother. I hope he can learn to be strong and deal w/ his life as it is and learn to love it. I know for him, that is what Father wants.

I have had good friends not serve...many are still not married because the girls won't marry a non RM. They are the BEST guys in the world and those girls would be LUCKY to have them as husbands.

It's just sad....because everyone should just MTOB! It causes unnecessary rifts and shame. I don't know where the shame comes from...people seem to become so devestated when life doesn't follow their black and white list. I don't know a person's whose life has!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am still thinking about your other questions. I do agree w/ much of what Curvette wrote. I just want to be able to offer my own brain or just a small amount of my ideas.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by estump@Mar 21 2004, 07:01 PM

It's just sad....because everyone should just MTOB! It causes unnecessary rifts and shame. I don't know where the shame comes from...people seem to become so devestated when life doesn't follow their black and white list. I don't know a person's whose life has!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen a lot of this in the church towards couples without children. My husband and I weren't trying to get pregnant the first 2 years of our marriage and we always had people say "So when you going to have kids?" For us it was no big deal. But I knew several girls who were having infertility problems and people constantly asking about children were doing far more harm than good. Now yes, I know the other members probably had no ill intentions, but it goes back to just minding your own business.

The worse was my aunt. They went through so many infertility treatments, all while keeping it very private. As gossip travels it got back that a woman had suggested that my aunt and uncle were too materially and that they didn't want to sacrifice anything to have kids. It hurt my aunt a lot because they would have probably given anything up just to have a baby and someone who had no idea of the situation was busy spreading around her "assumptions".

[Snow]

Cal,

As I have stated before, my only doctrinal obligation as a Mormon is to truth. I am not bound by any duty to believe something that is not true.

In some sense all Mormons believe similarly but often they exercise their free agency and decide to accept whatever the Brethren tell them. On a certain level, that is a safe thing to do - from my perspective because I believe the central claims of the Church and the prophets. On a deeper level, it is an unacceptable thing to do. It can only get you so far. True free agency requires that you do not abdicate decision making to anybody but that eventually you study it out in your own mind, subject it to the test of reason, seek the Holy Ghost and find the right place for the proper exercise of faith. Further, I think it is dangerous to rely on what the Brethren say because outside the scriptures, there is no ultimate understanding of what they are saying - emphasis changes, disagreement exist, policy is updated, misinterpretations abound, false rumors circulate, etc.

My belief in the gospel and history of the Church is certainly different than it was 3 years ago. When exposed to a bigger view of how things really are, a view you don't get soley inside the Church, I had my own little crisis of faith. One week I would fret over this new thing I learned about Church history or doctrine or Bible archeology or early Christianity history... and just as soon as I surmounted that test, another mini-crisis would come along. Basically it came down to three choices:

1. Throw it all out the window and leave,

2. Become a social Mormon,

3. Develop a new context into which I could place my newfound "truth."

What was never was an option for me was to remain Christian but leave the Mormon Church. I know that there are bright sincere people that do it, but it make no sense to me, not yet anyway and I find most (not all) of them to be philosophically, if not intellectually hypocritical and some of them morally hypocritical.

Obiviously I have settled in to a new enlarged understanding and context of how I think Christ, the atonement, the gospel, LDS theology, and LDS history and mankind's humanity fit together. As it turns out, I am othen more orthodox than one might suppose, I am much more fascinated with Mormon history and much more secure in my beliefs. And hey, if I question and doubt too much - I haven't got it all figured out yet - thank goodness.

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 21 2004, 03:40 PM

My dream in life is to be as God is,

A man's gotta have goals. A man without a goal is life a ship without a rudder, floating listlessly upon the seas. And, a goal not written down is only a wish.

Porter, you should write down your goal to be as God, set a due date, map out the steps and then keep us updated.

Remeber to make your goal, realistic, objective, measurable and time oriented.

[Cal]

Originally posted by estump@Mar 21 2004, 07:01 PM

Cal,

many are ostrasized for not going on missions. My oldest and youngest brother respectively. My oldest brother is no longer active and I believe it is because of the way he was treated. The girl's thought he wasn't good enough and his peers pressured him to the point of distaste. He didn't need that. My youngest could still go, but he has some things he needs to work out first. He may never go, but the guilt he feels because he can't go right now is crazy. I wish I could make him understand that it is 'okay'. However I know he will probably be treated the same as my older brother. I hope he can learn to be strong and deal w/ his life as it is and learn to love it. I know for him, that is what Father wants.

I have had good friends not serve...many are still not married because the girls won't marry a non RM. They are the BEST guys in the world and those girls would be LUCKY to have them as husbands.

It's just sad....because everyone should just MTOB! It causes unnecessary rifts and shame. I don't know where the shame comes from...people seem to become so devestated when life doesn't follow their black and white list. I don't know a person's whose life has!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am still thinking about your other questions. I do agree w/ much of what Curvette wrote. I just want to be able to offer my own brain or just a small amount of my ideas.

estump--I haven't heard from you for a while--nice to see you back--thank you for your comments--very well taken and I sympathize with what you have said.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 21 2004, 08:44 PM

Cal,

As I have stated before, my only doctrinal obligation as a Mormon is to truth. I am not bound by any duty to believe something that is not true.

In some sense all Mormons believe similarly but often they exercise their free agency and decide to accept whatever the Brethren tell them. On a certain level, that is a safe thing to do - from my perspective because I believe the central claims of the Church and the prophets. On a deeper level, it is an unacceptable thing to do. It can only get you so far. True free agency requires that you do not abdicate decision making to anybody but that eventually you study it out in your own mind, subject it to the test of reason, seek the Holy Ghost and find the right place for the proper exercise of faith. Further, I think it is dangerous to rely on what the Brethren say because outside the scriptures, there is no ultimate understanding of what they are saying - emphasis changes, disagreement exist, policy is updated, misinterpretations abound, false rumors circulate, etc.

My belief in the gospel and history of the Church is certainly different than it was 3 years ago. When exposed to a bigger view of how things really are, a view you don't get soley inside the Church, I had my own little crisis of faith. One week I would fret over this new thing I learned about Church history or doctrine or Bible archeology or early Christianity history... and just as soon as I surmounted that test, another mini-crisis would come along. Basically it came down to three choices:

1. Throw it all out the window and leave,

2. Become a social Mormon,

3. Develop a new context into which I could place my newfound "truth."

What was never was an option for me was to remain Christian but leave the Mormon Church. I know that there are bright sincere people that do it, but it make no sense to me, not yet anyway and I find most (not all) of them to be philosophically, if not intellectually hypocritical and some of them morally hypocritical.

Obiviously I have settled in to a new enlarged understanding and context of how I think Christ, the atonement, the gospel, LDS theology, and LDS history and mankind's humanity fit together. As it turns out, I am othen more orthodox than one might suppose, I am much more fascinated with Mormon history and much more secure in my beliefs. And hey, if I question and doubt too much - I haven't got it all figured out yet - thank goodness.

I hear you, bro! :)

[Guest curvette]

Woah! I actually AGREE with the basic meaning of Porter's post! For him, and people like him, unquestioning obedience is a choice made early on and they are happy with that choice. It works very well for him. It seems very difficult for people like this to understand that some people cease to thrive in that kind of an enviroment, and it can actually break their spirit. There should be room for all personality types in the church.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 22 2004, 10:10 AM

Woah! I actually AGREE with the basic meaning of Porter's post! For him, and people like him, unquestioning obedience is a choice made early on and they are happy with that choice. It works very well for him. It seems very difficult for people like this to understand that some people cease to thrive in that kind of an enviroment, and it can actually break their spirit. There should be room for all personality types in the church.

Actually Curvette, I did not choose very early on life. In fact, I put my parents and church leaders through hell the minute my parents gave me complete control over my religious freedom(at 11 years old). I went to a lot of parties, never drank, but did some other things(no sex). I got lazy, didn't graduate from high school(after going in at 13), and saw my life going straight down the crapper because I was "challenging everything I possibly could. In fact I still question authority outside the Church, I am what one would call an "Entrepreneur", not only in business but in the world itself. However, I came to a very sound conclusion that being a Mormon and knowing the truths I do, questioning revelation and standard was going a little too far. I do understand that, and I even butted heads with both my teachers in the MTC on doing outlines. Anyway, the Church is just one place I don't question.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 22 2004, 12:49 PM

Anyway, the Church is just one place I don't question.

Let us pray you can continue on that path...

[Cal]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 22 2004, 12:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 22 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Mar 22 2004, 10:10 AM

Woah!  I actually AGREE with the basic meaning of Porter's post!  For him, and people like him, unquestioning obedience is a choice made early on and they are happy with that choice. It works very well for him.  It seems very difficult for people like this to understand that some people cease to thrive in that kind of an enviroment, and it can actually break their spirit.  There should be room for all personality types in the church.

Actually Curvette, I did not choose very early on life. In fact, I put my parents and church leaders through hell the minute my parents gave me complete control over my religious freedom(at 11 years old). I went to a lot of parties, never drank, but did some other things(no sex). I got lazy, didn't graduate from high school(after going in at 13), and saw my life going straight down the crapper because I was "challenging everything I possibly could. In fact I still question authority outside the Church, I am what one would call an "Entrepreneur", not only in business but in the world itself. However, I came to a very sound conclusion that being a Mormon and knowing the truths I do, questioning revelation and standard was going a little too far. I do understand that, and I even butted heads with both my teachers in the MTC on doing outlines. Anyway, the Church is just one place I don't question.

Port--it sounds like you probably should stick to getting all your direction from "church talk", since your track record on your own sounds pretty dismall. Better to follow blindly something that is not likely to do you too much harm (like church counsels) than to have to follow the dictates of your own mind at this point. I would suggest you get an education and perhaps you will get control of yourself. (I know this sounds condescending, but, since you seem to feel free to tell us about yourself and the paths you have taken, you invite this type of advise--for whatever it is worth)

BTW--how is 'butting heads' with your MTC instructors not "butting heads" with the church---who do you think tells the MTC instructors what and how to teach?

[porterrockwell]

One, like I said, I came to the conclusion of OBEDIENCE, freely. I do think for myself and I don't follow "blindly". I do have an education, and just because I didn't graduate doesn't mean I don't have one. I tested in college levels when I was about 12, thus the whole early entry into high school. So the education wasn't the problem, but merely the intent I had. I do have a GED now and am persuing certain business related fields. However, I don't find that relevant. As far as butting heads with my teachers, it was to demonstrate that I am not perfect. I still have to think through things to get myself straightened out. Do you know more than God? Was Jesus Christ not OBEDIENT, did he follow blindly? Do you want exhaltation, or just a seat in the "immortal" category? I could write a book on my thought process that led me to understand OBEDIENCE, but why, for my own personal gain? Just because one has chosen OBEDIENCE does not suggest they are incapable of free thought, remember, to take upon us His yoke, that is what OBEDIENCE is all about. Read Mosiah 3:19, that is what it's all about.

[Cal]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 22 2004, 07:29 PM

One, like I said, I came to the conclusion of OBEDIENCE, freely.  I do think for myself and I don't follow "blindly".  I do have an education, and just because I didn't graduate doesn't mean I don't have one.  I tested in college levels when I was about 12, thus the whole early entry into high school.  So the education wasn't the problem, but merely the intent I had.  I do have a GED now and am persuing certain business related fields.  However, I don't find that relevant.  As far as butting heads with my teachers, it was to demonstrate that I am not perfect.  I still have to think through things to get myself straightened out.  Do you know more than God?  Was Jesus Christ not OBEDIENT, did he follow blindly?  Do you want exhaltation, or just a seat in the "immortal" category?  I could write a book on my thought process that led me to understand OBEDIENCE, but why, for my own personal gain?  Just because one has chosen OBEDIENCE does not suggest they are incapable of free thought, remember, to take upon us His yoke, that is what OBEDIENCE is all about.  Read Mosiah 3:19, that is what it's all about.

You may have a different definition of "obedience" than I do. One has good reason to "obey" the law. However, there are occasions when t he law NEEDS to be disobeyed. The general rules of law have all kinds of exceptions, and one has to think for oneself before "blindly" obeying them. The speed limit may be 45 mph, but if my wife is about to have a baby, and is hemoraging in the car, the speed limit is the least of my concerns (within reason).

My point is: The strength of your character and intelligence is not knowing HOW to obey, it is knowing WHAT to obey--and that requires thinking for yourself and deciding for yourself what is WORTH obeying and what is not. Just saying that you have decided to OBEY sounds like you have decided to enroll in "Dog Obedience School".

I'm glad you have a GED, but that is hardly an education. Take some college classes in world history, biology, psychology, sociology and physics, and you may find that the world and universe looks like a very different place than you thought before.