PB Lineage Question & the BOM

[Speakzeasy]

I came across these verses in the Book of Mormon that give me the adopted linage of the Gentiles that become members of the house of Israel after they receive the much of the Lords gospel "which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb" (1 Ne. 13:34)

32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen. (1 Ne. 13:32)

34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb. (1 Ne. 13:34)

1 AND it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—

2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they (the Gentiles) shall be numbered among the seed of thy (Nephi's) father (Lehi); yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded. (1 Ne. 14:1-2)

1 NOW these are the words which Amulek preached unto the people who were in the land of Ammonihah, saying:

2 I am Amulek; I am the son of Giddonah, who was the son of Ishmael, who was a descendant of Aminadi; and it was the same Aminadi who interpreted the writing which was upon the wall of the temple, which was written by the finger of God.

3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren. (Alma 10:1-3)

So my question then becomes: "Where do I find this group of Gentiles that is being adopted into the tribe of Manasseh?" Certainly if the Lamb of G_d has taken away the Gentiles stumbling blocks I want to be a part of that group of Gentiles and be adopted into Manasseh.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Speakzeasy
Clarity

[Just_A_Guy]

I read the idea of being numbered among Lehi's seed, as a reference to 1 Nephi 13:30--if you're numbered among the seed of Lehi, it means you have a legitimate claim on the land together with Lehi's literal seed.

It might also be worth mentioning that the seed of Lehi actually included three tribes of Israel: Manasseh (through Lehi), Ephraim (through Ishmael--allegedly this was recorded in the 116 pages), and Judah (through Mulek). In the Nephite period it was more important to claim descendancy from Manassah--partly because that was Father Lehi's tribe; and partly because these émigrés from Judah would have seen Ephraim as the tribe that rebeled against the house of David and Solomon and shattered the Unified Kingdom of Israel, rather than the tribe tasked with bearing off the gospel to the world in the last dispensation.

I have sometimes wondered whether Mosiah's abolition of the monarchy was a direct response to the danger that one of the new Mulekite-Nephites might try to usurp the Nephite monarchy by virtue of his descendancy from the rightful kings of Israel.

[Speakzeasy]

I read the idea of being numbered among Lehi's seed

The angel talking to Nephi does not go into the descendants of Joseph story as you have. Maybe you could explain why the angel is very clear with Nephi about the Gentiles being numbered with Lehi's seed and the additional information that you have post.

I am curious as to why one would not believe this at face value.

[Just_A_Guy]

"Face value" is ambiguous here, and I think my interpretation--while not definitive--is as good as any other. From my standpoint the latter-day gentiles are being numbered among Lehi's seed for the purposes that the angel already outlined in 13:30. They are also, as they convert, being numbered among the House of Israel, either by intermarriage with Lehi's seed (Manassah/Ephraim), because they had other Israelitish blood in them independently of Lehi's literal seed, or because they became subject to the Abrahamic covenant by adoption.

[Speakzeasy]

"Face value" is ambiguous here

Hmmmm . . . . The angel is fairly pointed in his description to Nephi. Manassah is the only connection made to the house of Israel in the Book of Mormon. So why do we believe we know more then that which is given us for knowledge relating to the information given?

Ephraim does not appear to have any connection what so ever to the Book of Mormon. If Manassah is the first born then who is Ephraim?

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn (Jer. 34:9).

It does not appear that the Book of Mormon recognizes Ephraim in anyway. Is that how they treat the first born? The story in the Book of Mormon is about the descendants of Manassah. Why is it that Ephraim is neglected in Mormons abridgment of the history of the Nephites?

[Just_A_Guy]

Hmmmm . . . . The angel is fairly pointed in his description to Nephi. Manassah is the only connection made to the house of Israel in the Book of Mormon. So why do we believe we know more then that which is given us for knowledge relating to the information given?

Re Judah and the Mulekites--Helaman 8:21 makes clear that Mulek was a son of Zedekiah, who happened to be king of Judah when Lehi and Nephi fled Jerusalem (its capital). We know from the Bible that the kings of the political kingdom of Judah were of the tribe of Judah. Omni 1:14-19 describes the Nephites' union with the Mulekites.

Ephraim does not appear to have any connection what so ever to the Book of Mormon. If Manassah is the first born then who is Ephraim?

I'm going to assume that, as a practicing Mormon, you are aware of mainline LDS teachings re the blessings and responsibilities of the tribe of Ephraim in the latter days. Ephraim, not Manasseh, received the birthright from their grandfather Jacob (over Joseph's objection)--see Genesis 48.

As for the Nephite connection: Erastus Snow taught that the 116 pages included the information that Ishmael was of the tribe of Ephraim. James Talmage (in Articles of Faith) and the LDS Book of Mormon Institute manual both cite Snow for this proposition.

Why didn't the Nephite authors emphasize the Ephraimite connection? Uncertain; but I think it has to do with political history--as I suggested in my first post to this thread.

[Speakzeasy]

If you would relate how the Book of Mormon fits into the covenants made to Abraham, this would clear the question quickly.

[Just_A_Guy]

What, and deprive you of the experience of studying it out for yourself?

[Speakzeasy]

What, and deprive you of the experience of studying it out for yourself?

I like that list, but not as well as:

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? (Gen. 18:18 - not listed)

You see the covenant made to Abraham is divided into two parts.

The first "become a great and mighty nation" is about the righteous (remnant) of the house of Israel that are gathered in the last days.

The second "and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed" is about the Gentiles being blessed by the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ being given to them.

The first has not occurred, yet. The righteous remnant of the house of Israel has not been gathered, yet.

The second has occurred. It is the Book of Mormon being brought forth to the Gentiles at the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. and published in 1830.

These covenants are divided between Abraham's off spring. After all is said and done, Ephraim and Manasseh received their blessing through their ancestry.

Ephraim received the heir ship of blessings including, but not limited to, the Melchizedek Priesthood and gathering of the righteous remnant of the house of Israel.

Manasseh received the heir ship of the blessings including, but not limited to, the receiving of the gospel of Jesus Christ at the hands of Jesus, after being rejected by Juda, and to bring forth of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. Which occurred at the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1830.

The blessings passed down from Abraham are not given to overlap one another. The blessing is received by a representative of that tribe that is an legitimate heir to those blessings. Ephraim's blessings were past from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and to Ephraim. Ephraim's blessings did not go Manasseh. Manasseh's blessings were past from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and to Manasseh, Manasseh's did not go to Ephraim. The two brother's blessings cannot be mixed (this goes for the rest of the house of Israel). In other words, only Manasseh can fulfill the blessings given to Manasseh. If it were otherwise there would be confusion.

As an example: Jesus took his gospel to the house of Israel, in the people of Juda (receiving that blessing from Abraham), and they rejected him. The covenant made with Abraham required that Jesus give the gospel to the house of Israel. So, Jesus takes the gospel to the people of Manasseh, a member of the house of Israel. They to reject the gospel of Jesus within about four hundred years. Manasseh is blessed through Abraham to give the fullness of the gospel to the Gentiles. This occurs with Moroni, the representative for Manasseh, presenting the fullness of the gospel to a representative of the Gentiles. This would be Joseph Smith, Jr. The fullness of the gospel is what we now call the combined writings of the Bible and Book of Mormon (the abridged history of the Nephites, descendants of Manasseh, a member of the house of Israel).

The covenants made to Abraham passed to the house of Israel are a very interesting and broad subject that is also recovered in the Book of Revelation. John's vision relates the story of last day events which is the story of those covenants made to the remnant of the house of Israel being played out. It is a good read from that understanding. Nephi's vision is a good read for to give one an understanding of this.

Juda holds a lesser position than Manasseh relating to the covenants made to Abraham, and by the time Jesus was born, Manasseh had swallowed up any descendants of Juda that were in the promised land. The blessings past on to Juda would no longer apply to them.

The idea that somehow the covenants given to Abraham can be mixed with each other is very odd to me. It shows a lack of understanding of the purpose of the blessing being given out to very specific individuals for a reason and serves a specific purpose. Ephraim's blessing cannot be mixed with those of Manasseh nor Manasseh with Ephraim's, or any of the other tribes of Israel (Jacob).

How could Ishmael be a descendant of Ephraim since it would be contrary to the covenants made to Abraham. Manasseh would not have been allowed to "swallow up" Ephraim, since Ephraim holds a higher position (that of firstborn) in the arrangement of the covenants through Abraham.

Again, if you would relate how the Book of Mormon fits into the covenants made to Abraham, this would clear the question quickly.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Speakzeasy
Clarity

[Just_A_Guy]

I like that, but not as well as:

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? (Gen. 18:18 - not listed)

You see the covenant made to Abraham is divided into two parts.

More than two, actually. See the Bible Dictionary.

These covenants are divided between Abraham's off spring. After all is said and done, Ephraim and Manasseh received their blessing through their ancestry.

My understanding is that the Abrahamic covenant flows two ways--the children cannot be made perfect without the fathers; but nor can the fathers be made perfect without the children. (D&C 128:18)

Ephraim received the heir ship of blessings including, but not limited to, the Melchizedek Priesthood and gathering of the righteous remnant of the house of Israel.

Manasseh received the heir ship of the blessings including, but not limited to, the receiving of the gospel of Jesus Christ at the hands of Jesus, after being rejected by Juda, and to bring forth of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. Which occurred at the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1830.

I'm not aware of any scriptural source that sets it out in quite that way. Moreover, it wasn't just the Nephites who were visited by Christ after His resurrection. He went to ALL the lost tribes. (3 Nephi 17:4).

The blessings passed down from Abraham are not given to overlap one another. The blessing is received by a representative of that tribe that is an legitimate heir to those blessings.

But through inter-tribal marriage you get individuals who are descended from multiple tribes and might claim the blessings and responsibilities of either; which is why in the modern LDS Church, that members of the same family can have different Israelitish lineages pronounced in their patriarchal blessing. And that's not even factoring adoption into the mix.

So while you don't hear people's lineages declared as "both ___ and ___", I think the idea that the Nephites were all Manasseh, all of Manasseh, and only Manasseh, is neither mandated nor substantiated by the scriptural record. We know that the Nephites were literal descendants of both Manasseh and Ephraim, as well as (from the reign of Mosiah I onwards) Judah.

As an example: Jesus took his gospel to the house of Israel, in the people of Juda (receiving that blessing from Abraham), and they rejected him.

In general; but read the New Testament closely. You've got non-Judah Israelites running around the Holy Land well into the Roman period (both Benjamin and Asher, specifically).

Manasseh is blessed through Abraham to give the fullness of the gospel to the Gentiles.

Source? Orthodox LDS teaching is that Ephraim assumes primary responsibility for that role, though Manasseh certainly assists.

Juda holds a lesser position than Manasseh relating to the covenants made to Abraham, and by the time Jesus was born, Manasseh had swallowed up any descendants of Juda that were in the promised land.

.

By covenant, perhaps; but to say that it absolutely happened biologically is a stretch, methinks.

The idea that somehow the covenants given to Abraham can be mixed with each other is very odd to me. It shows a lack of understanding of the purpose of the blessing being given out to very specific individuals for a reason and serves a specific purpose.

Fortunately, that hasn't been my position. My position is that a person can have the blood of multiple tribes of Israel simultaneously. Even though the Lord will identify a particular individual's covenant lineage through one particular tribe, that doesn't mean that all other lineages will never manifest themselves in the individual's family or ethnic group.

How could Ishmael be a descendant of Ephraim since it would be contrary to the covenants made to Abraham. Manasseh would not have been allowed to "swallow up" Ephraim, since Ephraim holds a higher position (that of firstborn) in the arrangement of the covenants through Abraham.

You can take that one up with Joseph Smith, and Elders Snow and Talmage, and the modern Church. Mere birthright doesn't trump individual agency or the purposes of the Lord. If it did then Judah would never have held the throne, nor Levi the temple; and Messiah would have come through Joseph.

Again, if you would relate how the Book of Mormon fits into the covenants made to Abraham, this would clear the question quickly.

The Book of Mormon is all about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So's the Abrahamic covenant.

[Speakzeasy]

Re Judah and the Mulekites--Helaman 8:21 makes clear that Mulek was a son of Zedekiah, who happened to be king of Judah when Lehi and Nephi fled Jerusalem (its capital). We know from the Bible that the kings of the political kingdom of Judah were of the tribe of Judah. Omni 1:14-19 describes the Nephites' union with the Mulekites.

I'm going to assume that, as a practicing Mormon, you are aware of mainline LDS teachings re the blessings and responsibilities of the tribe of Ephraim in the latter days. Ephraim, not Manasseh, received the birthright from their grandfather Jacob (over Joseph's objection)--see Genesis 48.

It is interesting that Ishmael had only daughters and Lehi had only sons.

6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the valley which he called Lemuel.

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the commandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.

9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his journey into the wilderness. (1 Ne. 16:3)

Lets take the Native American Blood lines as they are today.

A half breed is 50% blood line (known as a "blood quantum") Now that person that is 50% blood quantum marries outside of the blood line and the next generation becomes half again related to the original blood line. This blood quantum continues to divide in half for every generation after that first division, as long as there is no marrage back into the original blood line. (U.S. Federal Law recognizes 50% blood quantum for immigration purposes. Some tribes will consider 25% blood quantum for their own registry. My beautiful love (wife sounds so much like property) is Canadian Born Native American. I represent her while working out her immigration)

Ephraim's blood line was lost in the first hundred fifty years of Lehi's landing at the promised land. Juda's blood line was lost in the same way.

Both of Ephraim and Manasseh would have shared Manasseh's inheritence of the covenants made with Abraham. Ephraim and Juda covenants through Abraham would have been lost, swollowed up, in the blessings given to Manasseh. No longer would Ephraim's blessing be of any value.

Any descendants of Juda simply could not receive the blessing given to them through Abraham, they were not in the land were the blessings were received by the rest of tribe of Jude.

Time is at hand when the blessings of Ephraim and the blessing made to Lehi (a descendent of Manasseh) through Abraham will be received on this land, here in the United States, the birth place of the fullness of the gospel being brought forth to the Gentiles.

Juda is about to receive a blessing that comes through Abraham just prior to Ephraim and Manasseh receiving their blessings. Everyone will see Juda receive this particular blessing that comes through Abraham. People simply will not understand it to be able to make that application to the event.

The Gentiles must be adopted into the tribe of Manasseh as it is written in the Book of Mormon. Otherwise scripture, the word of G_d, is made nul and void. G_d will not allow that to happen.

The story of prophecy, as written in the Bible and Book of Mormon, is the story we were told about in the Council of Heaven. We knew the events here on earth must happen in a particular order and manner so that the promises G_d, the Father, can be fulfilled. We trusted that G_d, the Father, can fulfill his promises he made in the Council of Heaven. Because he is true to his word and he has authority to follow through with his promises.

(Question: Did the Law of Moses allow inter-marriage of the tribes of Israel (Joseph having two portions)?)

Edited November 13, 2013 by Speakzeasy
Clarity

[Vort]

You're mistaken. Lehi clearly had daughters, and Ishmael clearly (and explicitly) had sons.

[Just_A_Guy]

It is interesting that Ishmael had only daughters and Lehi had only sons.

Incorrect. Lehi had daughters (2 Ne 5:6--referring to Nephi's sisters). Ishmael had sons. (2 Ne 4:10).

A half breed is 50% blood line (known as a "blood quantum") Now that person that is 50% blood quantum marries outside of the blood line and the next generation becomes half again related to the original blood line. This blood quantum continues to divide in half for every generation after that first division, as long as there is no marrage back into the original blood line. (U.S. Federal Law recognizes 50% blood quantum for immigration purposes. Some tribes will consider 25% blood quantum for their own registry. My beautiful love (wife sounds so much like property) is Canadian Born Native American. I represent her while working out her immigration)

Ephraim's blood line was lost in the first hundred fifty years of Lehi's landing at the promised land. Juda's blood line was lost in the same way.

That bolded part is one heckuva big condition. Moreover, federal standards of lineage didn't apply in 400 BCE. If we can still be deemed to be of Ephraim four thousand years after his lifetime--regardless of intermarriage, etc--then why couldn't some of the Nephites be similarly classified two thousand years earlier?

By the way, just to make things more interesting: since at least Roman times, Jews have traced their heritage through the maternal, not the paternal line.

Any descendants of Juda simply could not receive the blessing given to them through Abraham, they were not in the land were the blessings were received by the rest of tribe of Jude.

None of the Nephites were in the land where the blessings were received by the rest of their respective tribes--regardless of whether the tribe was Ephraim, Manasseh, or Judah.

The Gentiles must be adopted into the tribe of Manasseh as it is written in the Book of Mormon.

Er, except that it's not written in the Book of Mormon. 1 Nephi 14:2 promises that the Gentiles, through belief, can be numbered among the seed of Lehi, and of Israel (Israel, not necessarily Manasseh), and become a blessed people on the promised land (rightful title of which, in the previous chapter, was established as lying with Lehi's seed). Lehi's seed had both Ephraimite and Manassehite lineage. Ergo, you can be of Lehi's seed even if your lineage, as declared in your patriarchal blessing, comes through Ephraim or Judah (or, quite possibly, other lines--we don't know how many other tribes were represented among the Mulekites).

(Question: Did the Law of Moses allow inter-marriage of the tribes of Israel (Joseph having two portions)?)

If it didn't, then you'd have to explain how Jesus of Nazareth--of the tribe of Judah--could be a cousin to John the Baptist, who was of the tribe of Levi.

[Speakzeasy]

You're mistaken. Lehi clearly had daughters, and Ishmael clearly (and explicitly) had sons.

Yep, your are correct. My mistake. Thank you correcting me.

6 And it came to pass that as we journeyed in the wilderness, behold Laman and Lemuel, and two of the daughters of Ishmael, and the two sons of Ishmael and their families, did rebel against us; yea, against me, Nephi, and Sam, and their father, Ishmael, and his wife, and his three other daughters (1 Ne. 7:6).

It does not change the covenant nor lineage difficulties that are applied to Ephraim and Manasseh has it was stated by Erastus Snow. The Book of Mormon related to the covenants made to father Abraham is through Manasseh. Ephraim has no part in the blessings with Manasseh. They are separate. The blessing of the two cannot be mixed.

The my post above would still have application. The Gentiles need to be adopted into Manasseh. I believe to Book of Mormon to be the correct authority on the subject. It was not given the us as an arbitrary writing (Vort and Just_A_Guy agree, pointing out my mistake). We cannot negotiate it so the we apply it to things as we wish. There is nobody that is able to change the covenants that were made through Abraham, by G_d, the Father. I am not sure why anyone would want to, however, it does and has happened.

I know your going to say that Erastus Snow said that Joseph Smith said that. Hmmm . . . 38 years after Joseph death away. And nobody else ever made that statement before Erastus Snow? All the journals of Brigham Young and others (the Pratt bothers, etc.) who were more likely closer to Joseph then Erastus was. Hmmm . . . .

The promises made with Abraham are sure and G_d, the Father, will fulfill them the way he had promised. Not the way men claim they should be. I am looking forward to the rest of covenants being fulfilled that we learn about from the Bible and Book of Mormon.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Speakzeasy
Clarity