New Starbucks Cups

[LukeAir2006]

B)

[Guest mamacat]

certainly you shouldn't worry, as i'm sure you know that i'll just be among the multitudes of the wicked trash whom God hates and that will be swept away in the end. in fact, as a recent convert i can tell you how appealing and delightful this idea is to scores of potential other converts -- they're all just banging on the door to get in. God must appreciate very much the love and honor with which you encourage others to follow Him.

[LukeAir2006]

[Outshined]

i'm sure you know that i'll just be among the multitudes of the wicked trash whom God hates and that will be swept away in the end.

I think I read that in the Bible.

Um...somewhere near the back, I think...(Simpsons reference)

[Guest mamacat]

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certainly you shouldn't worry, as i'm sure you know that i'll just be among the multitudes of the wicked trash whom God hates and that will be swept away in the end. in fact, as a recent convert i can tell you how appealing and delightful this idea is to scores of potential other converts -- they're all just banging on the door to get in. God must appreciate very much the love and honor with which you encourage others to follow Him.

oooo, mamacat, you're very touchy and sensitive for a new convert?? What idea is so appealing and delightful to potential converts? Not been able to drink coffee? Or not being able to indulge in deviant behaviour? The choice to join the Lords church is the choice to leave the world behind. But it is a choice isn't it? And if a cup of coffee or deviant behaviour is more important to us than truth, light, joy etc. then thats what we'll choose, won't we? I'm not judging you, mamacat, but the Lord Jesus Christ will. I'm sure you'll have nothing to worry about, eh?

hi Lukeair ~

sorry to sound touchy. the idea that i referenced is one that you posted in Zshallr's thread, introduction ~

We refuse to sanctify ourselves so it will eventually be done for us. And it won't be nice. This will leave a core of holy, worthy Saints who are willing to abide a celestial law. Then the Lord can sweep the wicked from the consecrated lands of Zion (America) and the remaining sanctified Saints can be gathered and establish the city of Zion.

It will happen. And I don't think its far off.

i would think that those who truly care about God's children enough to try to help, rather than criticize, would understand how the path to God sometimes is a journey. perhaps the path leads to a place where the most 'sinful' thing one indulges in is coffee, rather than alcohol and drugs. perhaps God's gentle guidance is what brings men to Him....not the harsh admonition that God hates them so much that He wants nothing to do with them other than to sweep them away.

but i believe that God's plan is to encourage people in a myriad of ways to return to Him. i submit, even, that He sent Jesus Christ as an example of this desire. revolutionary as that may sound.

JC taught love not fear. and i tell you this...people are severely turned off by a God who hates. God doesn't hate, people do, and they transmit this hate in their judgemental ways by telling others that they are nothing more than wicked trash just waiting to be swept away through vengence and hatred. if your desire is, as the BoM encourages us, to help men know God's truth, then telling them that they are just the wicked trash waiting to be swept away is not the way to do so.

and i would suggest also, that many people who consider themselves christian and avid followers of the bible would be quite surprised that mormons think that they are nothing more than wicked trash because they drink coffee. it would be interesting to try find biblical scripture to support that. such ideas will be the downfall of Mitt Romney's campaign, if you circulate them enough. Hillary is probably quite happy to have you on her side.

[Dr T]

I'd guess that God abhors sin.

[Guest mamacat]

i would guess that God loves more than anything. that's what Jesus taught me anyway. though i find that men do not.

[Dr T]

"God is love." That does not mean that he does not have disdain for sin and as we read, he caste Satan and Adam and Eve away for their behavior. He can use correction of the sinner as an indication of his love as opposed to the idea that he cannot because he loves.

[Guest mamacat]

from what i know of the bible, Jesus spent his time with tax collectors and lepers, and women even *gasp*, that others avoided as sinners and too unworthy for contact. his message to them was that they are God's children and that God loves them. words that no one else had proffered, words that the world was dying to hear. this is what revolutionized our world; this is Christ's message.

not that God hates and destroys. although men do attempt to use this fear to control others. though God and Jesus convey the exact opposite, with their idea of free agency. a concept, i suspect, that helps people to find God in their hearts through love and gentle guidance, rather than through hate, control and fear.

this is what i learned about LDS, before i was baptised anyway.

"God is love." That does not mean that he does not have disdain for sin and as we read, he caste Satan and Adam and Eve away for their behavior. He can use correction of the sinner as an indication of his love as opposed to the idea that he cannot because he loves.

the Old Testament does have beauty and strength. but i believe the new testament is about the atonement of sin through love, rather than punishment. i think it may even be the reason there are enormous numbers of people on this planet who call themselves Christians, and endeavor to follow in Christ's path.

Christ taught of everlasting life, not death and damnation.

[Dr T]

I agree Cat, "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us." You also say "the Old Testament does have beauty and strength. but i believe the new testament is about the atonement of sin through love, rather than punishment." however which is only one side of the coin there. Jesus actually suffered all punishment for us. He did not escape it. He died as a sacrifice for the sin. You are correct, he did hang out with sinners. He was here to make the ill, whole. Note though, he never once said, "Go ahead, sin away, yall!" What was it he said? What was it he actually said about sin?

[Guest mamacat]

haha of course He didn't say that....his presence was a gift to show the extent of God's love for us.

my point was that i don't think most regular christians consider coffee drinking a sin....and i would go so far to suggest that they might even think it a good thing that the coffeehouse culture engendered by starbucks that replaced the drug/alcohol culture found in clubbing and bars might just be considered something in God's favor.

but if you wish to believe that coffee drinking is a sin for which God will sweep you off to hell with the rest of the wicked and unworthy wretches, then i suppose that is your right. i do think however that people would be more likely to embrace God, if they believed He loves them as his children, rather than hates them for drinking coffee.

just my own wicked thoughts though.

p.s. i did state, in my original response to Luke, that i was speaking as a recent convert. so that is an essential element of my perspective here.

[Dr T]

LOL. I don't even say "y'all"

For me, it was key to understand his love in spite of my sinfulness. If we have no sin to contrast against his perfection, there is no understanding of Christ's sacrifice though. That's what I meant.

[Guest mamacat]

hehe....if you live in texas, Jesus says "y'all"...

[Dr T]

[LukeAir2006]

[CrimsonKairos]

Jesus actually suffered all punishment for us.

I disagree. Jesus suffered a punishment to be sure, but the atonement wasn't quid pro quo, him shedding one drop of blood for every sin that we did, do and will commit. The atonement was about the injustice done to Christ in his "trial" and crucifixion. But I know I'm in the minority in this belief.

[Dr T]

Yes, CK, we disagree on that point. A very important point.

[Guest mamacat]

Where do I start? This is an LDS Talk site isn't it. So most of the threads are or should be LDS oriented. It is primaraily for LDS to discuss LDS doctrines. And if anyone else is interested then wonderful.

The Bible from Genesis to Revelation teaches that the righteous or those who choose to follow God & Christ will be saved; and the wicked, those who reject God and Christ, will ultimately be destroyed. The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the other Scriptures teach the same message. Thats why people join the church, like I did. Thats why people publicly accept Christ as their Saviour like I did before I joined the Lords church. Thats why people repent and change their lives. As a teenage boy, when I heard Luis Palau the Christian Evangelist say: Where will you be if Christ returns tonight? I knew he wasn't saying, hey, everything will be cool, it won't matter where you are. He was saying unless you're on the Lords side you will fry. That ultimately God will cleanse the earth with fire like he had previously done with water. The LDS missionaries who came to my home were much more positive and spoke of the benefits of accepting Christ and his plan. But the message was the same. Repent or perish. Fortunately God doesn't judge us today, he gives the world time to learn of His Son and then follow Him. And fortunately we Latter Day Saints know that hell is not literally a place of fire and brimstone. Any suffering we do in hell, or the Spirit world, will be of our own making.

Just for the record, God does not hate anyone. He hates and detests sin but loves and cherishes the sinner. Th term 'wicked' is used to generically identify those who reject God and who are opposed to his plan. I've only seen you use the expression 'wicked trash'. Thats not an expression I've seen in the Scriptures or heard any latter day prophets using, and its definately not an expression that I've used. You're correct, the christian world doesn't consider drinking coffee as a sin. As I said, this is an LDS site. You identify yourself as one who is LDS but speak as one who is not. You seem to have a little bit of an identity crisis going on?

You have quoted my response to Zshallrs thread 'Introduction' but took it totally out of context. I said: the wicked shall be swept from the land or words to that effect. I was speaking of the ultimate destiny of the US. If you've ever taken the time to read the Book of Mormon you will know that the message of that book is that America has been consecrated for those who serve Jesus Christ. And eventually all those who don't will be removed. I'm sorry if this has offended you. But its the teaching of Scripture and Latter Day Prophets.

thanks for this explanation Lukeair. i do understand your points about LDS. i am not speaking as a non-LDS, but as a recent convert who understands that God loves every child on this earth, the entirety of which is His creation. and i continue to maintain that having tolerance and understanding for the 'path' that leads us to the gate of understanding and knowing God is important -- because it may be an individual journey that might be part of God's plan that is not always readily apparent to us. we are so quick to judge. it's the reason i mentioned free agency, that was seemingly of such importance to God and Jesus. perhaps God's timeline is different than ours....perhaps time is something highly relative in realms other than our own.

you have not offended me. what i care about is also in the Book of Mormon. and that is to awaken others to the word of God. that includes making the attempt to see how God operates in this dimension and world. yes, missionaries can make headway with people, but God works on people's hearts long the missionaries ever find them, to help them be open to their message.

i did say wicked trash etc, to emphasize what it is that people, not LDS, or even christian maybe, hear when you tell them that the "wicked" will be 'swept' away. surely you don't sweep away treasure that you love, do you? the metaphor in use -- that of sweeping something away -- implies that it is refuse or trash. no one wants to be 'forced' into accepting God out of fear and coercion....and neither does God wish that, else He wouldn't have made such a big deal about free agency. that's manipulation by fear.

God and Jesus ask you to know them in your heart, to come unto their love by way of the immense love that they have for us, that God wants them know. if He wanted to just force people into submission, He would have allowed Satan the task of bringing the earth's inhabitants back to Him. but he gave the task to Jesus instead, who preached the overwhelming power of Love. love is a far different concept than fear. and do you know, that President Hinckley is one of the best conveyors of this truth...when he speaks i hear this truth vibrating through every word he says. it's the reason i accept him as a prophet of truth.

i was only suggesting that the function of an entity such as starbucks, though not through specifically LDS or christian means, may actually be a positive one, in the overall scheme of things....in the way that God works on the hearts of those whose paths may be leading them to Him, in his own time and way.

it's not a rejection, nor a misunderstanding, of the Book of Mormon. it is instead, one of respect for God's way of helping men to know in their hearts of the overwhelming certainty of His love for them.

[LukeAir2006]

[Guest mamacat]

thank you LukeAir. :)

For me, it was key to understand his love in spite of my sinfulness. If we have no sin to contrast against his perfection, there is no understanding of Christ's sacrifice though. That's what I meant.

Dr. T ~ i understand your words in the context of the parable of the prodigal son.

(not sayin' you're prodigal or anything.... )

[Dr T]

Prodigal son as summarized by somebody (I do not know who-sorry)

Sick of home

Home sick

Home

[Guest mamacat]