Vicarious Ordinances (i.e. Baptism For The Dead)

[vinny15]

I personally love that the lds church is so just. I love that everyone will hear the gospel in full and it will be there choice to accept it or not. God has given us this life to prove ourselves. I think that God is in the middle between some strictness and some mercy. If you are unrepentant than there is no mercy at all, but if you simply ask than theres your mercy he will forgive. What is it that would keep me from joining any other church? It's the fact that they dont preach the possibility of others who never heard the gospel of christ to hear it.

The true church preaches all of christs doctrine and doesnt pick and choose. Look at 1corintheans 10 - 13. (Now I beseech you brethren....that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you...Now this day I say that everyone of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of christ...Is Christ diivided? was paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of paul?)

Than Ephesians 4:4-7(There is one body and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, but of every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of christ.

CHrist has one church and it is somewhere. Of coarse I believe it is the LDS church naturally, but I ask of everyone to find for themselves.

BAck to baptism for the dead and vicarious ordinances. Look at 1 corintheans 15:16,29(For if the dead rise not, then is not christ raised: and if christ is not raised than your faith is in vain.... Else what shall they do wich aer baptised for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they than baptised for the dead?

I love that. He is answering with a question. My testimony is that the dead shall recieve the happiness that we can all recieve in life. Even more so in death. Amen.

Thanks,

Mike :)

[Dr T]

The point was really about resurrection.

Significantly, Paul does not say, “we baptize for the dead,” but asks what will they do who are baptized for the dead, and Why then are they baptized for the dead? Therefore, Paul is referring to a pagan custom of vicarious baptism for the dead. “Paul simply mentions the superstitious custom without approving it and uses it to fortify his argument that there is a resurrection from the dead.” (Mare)

iii. Paul certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place? The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither Scriptural nor sensible.

iv. Paul’s point is plain: “The pagans even believe in the resurrection because they baptize for the dead. The pagans have the sense to believe in resurrection, but some of you Corinthian Christians do not!”

quote from David Guzik from blueletterbible.org

[vinny15]

Uh that makes zero sense.

If you look close Doc T. you can definately tell what Im saying.

He talks of people rising from the dead and says if the dead dont rise than christ has not risen and if christ has not risen than your faith is in vain andwhy are they baptising for the dead.

It was pagan, but it was an ordinace and paul does not refer to it as bad he is merely proving a point to those baptising for the dead.

I guess this is proof that scripture can be interpreted any way, but what do you really think Doc T.

Are some people just not lucky enough. Oh and just because your baptised for the dead doesnt mean you go to heaven.

[vinny15]

Two passages in 1 Peter provide evidence that the Gospel was preached to those who had died without a knowledge of Christ. Here is 1 Peter 3:18-21:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ....

And here is 1 Peter 4:6, which follows a reference in verse 5 to "him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead":

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I also love these passages. also D&C 127: 5-10 is interseting.

[Dr T]

It does make sense Vinny. As is evident, you interpret it in a different way. The way you have been brought up. Again, the passage was about the resurrection and nonbelief. He was using an example the "even the pagans" believe in it. "Why esle would they do it?" he's asking. That's all.

[vinny15]

Im wondering though how it was "evident" that paul was saying "even the pagans believe in it"

Ok for arguing purposes lets say your right.

What than happens to those that never had a chance to accept the gospel.

We both know Jesus was baptised to fulfill all righteousness and that baptism is essentail.

P.S. when I said it was pagan I meant merely that pagans had practiced it.

So did may early christians.

[Dr T]

Do you have reference for the idea that Christians practiced it Vinny? Just wondering if they were truly Christian and who might have said that. I agree Jesus told us to do it. Not all people though were baptized. Consider teh thief on the cross. He was not baptized and Jesus still said, "Today you will be with me in paradise."

[vinny15]

Hence the word "paradise" That isnt heaven. It is a resting place for the good people.

If we also remember Joseph Smith saw his brother in the celestial kingdom before he was baptised. God works with different time levels. Joseph couldve seen the future for all I know.

We see the parade passing while god sees the whole thing from begining to end.

Im sure I have a source somewhere for the early christians supporting it, but you and I both agree that it wont prove it right or wrong.

[CrimsonKairos]

So where's the proof within Paul's own statements that he's saying pagans practiced baptism for the dead?

Seems like that's the stretch. I love watching "Bible scholars" trip over themselves trying to put a spin on any scripture that supports LDS doctrine.

"Well, well, well...um...Paul was saying that...pagans, yes! pagans...practiced baptism for the dead...and so it's just part of his argument to Christians about Christian beliefs in Christ's resurrection...don't know why he'd use pagan beliefs to bolster the Christian doctrine but...that must be it! Those mormons can't be right! We can't be wrong! We can't be missing anything...yes, it was those dirty pagans baptizing for the dead...and, and...since mormons baptize for the dead...they are pagans!"

Pathetic.

[Dr T]

It does say paradise. I take that as heaven. WOuld you say then that Jesus was in a resting place for good people on that day? I don't think so.

[CrimsonKairos]

Dr. T, I noticed you avoided my question. How 'bout it?

As for "paradise," it comes from the Greek word paradeisos, which originally referred to an enclosed Persian hunting park. Click on that word and you'll be taken to the page of definitions for it. One, I produce below:

The part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

There's hardly "one clear" definition of the word, unless we're approaching the Bible from personal biases and not etymology and denotation.

My take? Maybe the thief was only being crucified for being a thief when he wasn't one, much like Christ was crucified for being a blasphemer when he wasn't one. In that case, if the thief was a good dude, it's entirely appropriate for Jesus to say to him, "Today, after you die, I'll see you in that part of the spirit world reserved for the good and pious who await their resurrection."

Remember Dr. T, even after Christ's resurrection when he saw Mary at the garden tomb, he said he had not yet ascended to his Father. Where was he for those three days if not in that part of the spirit world reserved for the good?

[Dr T]

Missed your post CK. SOrry. Context of who it was written to leads to the best interpretation possible. Consider what's written and the context it is in and the in light of all the rest of the Bible. Like I've said before, I'm not a bible scholar but it seems like a good interpretation to me.

[CrimsonKairos]

Context of who it was written to leads to the best interpretation possible.

So Paul was writing to pagans in 1 Corinthians?

Consider what's written and the context it is in and the in light of all the rest of the Bible.

I don't know of any Pauline epistles written to pagans.

[vinny15]

It does say paradise. I take that as heaven. WOuld you say then that Jesus was in a resting place for good people on that day? I don't think so.

If we remember Christ took 3 days to be resurected so he was in paadise for a bit.

Dr. T. I respect your opinion on many things. You bring great points, but if you want me to keep an open mind than I would ask the same.

[Dr T]

You're right-he didn't. I was talking about the context of the resurrection adn the importance of that understanding.

[vinny15]

Oh ok.

YOure right we need to understand resurection. I also know that christ was baptised and if the son of the living god need be baptised than how much more do we need it then him... He was innocent, but for w/e reason that only god knows we need it. Whether its symbolism or if its a lteral change in our body.

Ill relay a story.

I was seven years old and a friend of mine showed me porn. I left the room not knowing it was realy bad, but just not intersted. The next week I turned 8 and was baptised and I recieved the holy ghost. I stayed at my friends again and he decided to turn it on again. I immediately had the worst feeling. LIke I knew if my mother new I would be doomed and more over if god new I would be doomed.

I left and went home immediately. The holy ghost was there for me and I know its something needed in this life and Im sure the next.

[Dr T]

Thank you for that story Vinny. That is interesting. I haven't thought about needing it in the after life. I didn't think we needed it in Heaven. Again, that is interesting and something I'll think about.

[vinny15]

Thank you for that story Vinny. That is interesting. I haven't thought about needing it in the after life. I didn't think we needed it in Heaven. Again, that is interesting and something I'll think about.

I think maby in the spirit world before after life, but for some reason it "fullfills all righteousness" as christ said.

[Dr T]

Can you give that reference so I can take a look at it? Thank you Vinny

[vinny15]

13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Here ya go.

[Dr T]

I know that piece. I meant about needing it in the after life. WE know when pregnant with Jesus and John, there was the jumping. We know they were meant to fulfill that work in later life.

[CrimsonKairos]

My problem with your theory about 1 Cor. 15, Dr. T, is that it seems odd that a Christian apostle (Paul) would draw upon supposed pagan beliefs to reinforce the doctrine of the resurrection.

By the way, I've never heard of pagans baptizing, let alone baptizing for the dead. Where does that pastor get that stuff? As in, what historical sources or texts inform him and through him, us, that pagans baptized for the dead?

I am not aware of any instance in the New Testament (or Old) where a prophet or apostle of God draws support for their doctrines and revelations, from pagan sources. Seems contradictory and unnecessary. Doesn't fit with the pattern of preaching that characterized the epistles and letters following the Upper Room encounter (i.e. Christ's manifest resurrection).

[vinny15]

I know that piece. I meant about needing it in the after life. WE know when pregnant with Jesus and John, there was the jumping. We know they were meant to fulfill that work in later life.

Oh... well Christ preached the gospel to the dead in the spirit world. So we would need the spirit to discern the truth for us.

1peter 3.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 aWhich sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water

This is 1peter 4:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

but it is an essential doctrine.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Mark16:16

My Favorite is this John 3:

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Notice he is speaking of baptism and he says if it doesnt happen then you cannot go to heaven.