Baltimore riots

[unixknight]

Ah so it's the victim's fault.  Weren't you the one just now saying that someone is innocent until proven guilty?

 

I don't think you answered my question, or if you did I didn't quite understand.  Are you against having these officers answer for Mr. Gray's death?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Sad that you have already decided thst the cops are renegade. 

 

First ditto to what Unixknight said.

 

Second, I was using renegade to refer to cops that have been charged with a man's murder, not only in this case, but in that of Walter Scott as well and any other abusive cops out there.... I was trying to take care to differentiate these men from the good police officers that truly do strive to "protect and serve".  

[bytor2112]

Ah so it's the victim's fault.  Weren't you the one just now saying that someone is innocent until proven guilty?

 

I don't think you answered my question, or if you did I didn't quite understand.  Are you against having these officers answer for Mr. Gray's death?

 

Well, yeah, if he wasn't a known criminal, then he would likely still be alive. I am all for the officers being investigated, but, I am not for railroading the officers to appease an out of control mob.

Edited May 1, 2015 by bytor2112

[unixknight]

I don't think anyone's calling for a railroading, my friend.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Well, yeah, if he wasn't a known criminal, then he would likely still be alive. I am all for the officers answer, but, I am not for railroading the officers to appease an out of control mob.

 

Where did you see anyone calling for railroading?  I expressed my support of the law of the land working properly.  I can't imagine why you would have a problem with due process.  If those officers are innocent, let them prove it in a court of law.  That's how the system works.

[bytor2112]

First ditto to what Unixknight said.

 

Second, I was using renegade to refer to cops that have been charged with a man's murder, not only in this case, but in that of Walter Scott as well and any other abusive cops out there.... I was trying to take care to differentiate these men from the good police officers that truly do strive to "protect and serve".  

 

You again are accusing them of being abusive, renegade and murderer all in one statement. Perhaps, you shoud state that the police officers in question have been charged in connection with the man's death. If they are guilty of murder and it can be proven then they should receive the harshest sentence available.

 

The news media uses convicting and inflamatory language that is unnecessary and creates much of the high tensions that occur. "Cop shoots and kills unarmed teenager"  When it should have been accurately described " Man assault police officer and officer shoots the assailant in the line of duty." (Furgeson)

Edited May 1, 2015 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

Where did you see anyone calling for railroading?  I expressed my support of the law of the land working properly.  I can't imagine why you would have a problem with due process.  If those officers are innocent, let them prove it in a court of law.  That's how the system works.

 

Except, like the mob in Baltimore, you have pronounced judgement on the officers in question, accusing them of being renegade, abusive and murderers. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by bytor2112

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

You again are accusing them of being abusive, renegade and murderer all in one statement. Perhaps, you shoud state that the police officers in question have been charged in connection with the man's death. If they are guilty of murder and it can be proven then they should receive the harshest sentence available.

 

The news media uses convicting and inflamatory language that is unnecessary and creates much of the high tensions that occur. "Cop shoots and kills unarmed teenager"  When it should have been accurately described " Man assault police officer and officer shoots the assailant in the line of duty." (Furgeson)

 

I'm calling SOME police officers abusive, renegade and murderer because in my opinion they are.  They get to be "innocent until proven guilty" in a court of law, not in my mind.  :)    I don't think all police officers are bad.  I personally know a few great ones.  But the ones that ARE bad get my utmost contempt.

 

A dislike for the media is something we have in common.  They are like spies that play both sides.  They care only for what will get them ratings not for the truth...that is why they ignored six days of peaceful protests and only reported on the rioting.  And then they left out the stories of Black people that stood in front of the police to stop the rioters, and other Black people who came out and cleaned up the next morning.  I don't think the media is a friend to either side.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Except, like the mob in Baltimore, you have pronounced judgement on the officers in question, accusing them of being renegade, abusive and murderers. 

 

That is not railroading.  The dictionary definition is: press (someone) into doing something by rushing or coercing them

 

And as far as those renegade officers, I've done no worse to them, who have been convicted of a crime, than you have done to the Black people in general throughout this thread.  

[bytor2112]

I'm calling SOME police officers abusive, renegade and murderer because in my opinion they are.

 

 

You are calling the BPD officers that....just like the mob. Hey, they may be....but my point is simply that you have already indicted them and neither you nor myself really know the facts because the media distorts and minipulates and doens't care nor get held accountable for the damage it causes.

Edited May 1, 2015 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

That is not railroading.  The dictionary definition is: press (someone) into doing something by rushing or coercing them

 

And as far as those renegade officers, I've done no worse to them, who have been convicted of a crime, than you have done to the Black people in general throughout this thread.  

 

Um, the mob in Baltimore has been pressing and the DA has rushed. The difference between the people on the streets of Baltimore and the PD is that actual video evidence exists of their countless and indefensible crimes.

Edited May 1, 2015 by bytor2112

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Um, the mob in Baltimore has been pressing and the DA has rushed. The difference between the people on the streets of Baltimore and the PD is that actual video evidence exists of their countless and indefensible crimes.

 

You want video evidence?  Haven't you seen the video of Freddie Gray's arrest?  And Walter Scott's shooting, and Eric Garner's murder?  

 

I could give you a link to other videos of police brutality if you like.  It is a problem and it happens all over.

[bytor2112]

You want video evidence?  Haven't you seen the video of Freddie Gray's arrest?  And Walter Scott's shooting, and Eric Garner's murder?  

 

I could give you a link to other videos of police brutality if you like.  It is a problem and it happens all over.

 

Yep, I saw the video....looked like he was resisting arrest. Eric Garner wasn't murdered ( the officer was not indicted) he was resisting arrest and the yeah the cop that shot Scott should be in prison. Two sides exist to these stories and I am sure more willing to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt in most cases when dealing with habitual criminals.

Edited May 1, 2015 by bytor2112

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Let's start with this one.  People say, "well, if they wouldn't run", or "just do what they say"...but in this scenario, the police officer asks a man for his license.  The man obeys, reaching into his car for his license at which point the Police Officer starts yelling and shoots him.  

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/

 

In this story there was a video, but it isn't included in the story...

 

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/cop-arrested-after-video-shows-her-shoot-unarmed-man-back-lying-face-down-snow

 

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/03/24/hummelstown-officer-charged-with-killing-unarmed-driver

 

Here's an article of a police officer convicted of manslaughter of a young Black man...

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/26/oklahoma-police-captain-convicted-unarmed-teenager-murder

Edited May 1, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Yep, I saw the video....looked like he was resisting arrest. Eric Garner wasn't murdered ( the officer was not indicted) he was resisting arrest and the yeah the cop that shot Scott should be in prison. Two sides exist to these stories and I am sure more willing to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt in most cases when dealing with habitual criminals.

 

 

At least we agree that the cop who shot Scott should be in prison.  That's a start.

[bytor2112]

At least we agree that the cop who shot Scott should be in prison.  That's a start.

 

I also believe that Darren Wilson should be highly compensated by the media that perpetuated a viscious lie that ruined his life. I would hate the same thing happen to these officers if they are proven not guilty....

[Just_A_Guy]

Incidentally, all indications are that they arrested him for nothing.  According to officials, he ran when they saw him, but the only thing he had on his person was a knife, which is legal in the state of MD to carry.  So, as far as we can tell, he was literally arrested for nothing, and is dead now.

On this particular point, I'll be interested to see where the argument goes.  Police can do a Terry stop if they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that the detainee is up to no good; and if the detainee fails to comply--that, in and of itself, is a crime in many jurisdictions ("failure to stop at lawful command of law enforcement officer", or somesuch thing). 

 

In this case, it sounds like Gray ran away as soon as he made eye contact with the cops.  Now, I don't know how the case law shakes out--but to me, that gives rise to "reasonable articulable suspicion"; making the arrest (though certainly not the alleged tactics) perfectly kosher.

[Just_A_Guy]

I don't think anyone's calling for a railroading, my friend.

 

Rumor has it that the Gray family lawyer is a big political donor to the prosecutor's husband, who is on the town council.  That, if true, makes me just a smidge uncomfortable.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[unixknight]

I also believe that Darren Wilson should be highly compensated by the media that perpetuated a viscious lie that ruined his life. I would hate the same thing happen to these officers if they are proven not guilty....

 

I wouldn't be too sure of that.  Some anomalies about that investigation, as well as some unusual elements related to the Grand Jury, are starting to bring that into question.  

[unixknight]

On this particular point, I'll be interested to see where the argument goes.  Police can do a Terry stop if they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that the detainee is up to no good; and if the detainee fails to comply--that, in and of itself, is a crime in many jurisdictions ("failure to stop at lawful command of law enforcement officer", or somesuch thing). 

 

In this case, it sounds like Gray ran away as soon as he made eye contact with the cops.  Now, I don't know how the case law shakes out--but to me, that gives rise to "reasonable articulable suspicion"; making the arrest (though certainly not the alleged tactics) perfectly kosher.

 

Could be, we'll probably never know.   I dunno why he ran, since they didn't find anything illegal on him, but I'd be lying if I said I can't imagine why someone would want to avoid the Baltimore Police...

 

Edit:  Sorry for the double post.

Edited May 2, 2015 by unixknight

[bytor2112]

Just to keep things in perspective:

 

According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund 682 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty in the past five years in the United States. That averages out to over 136 dead law enforcement officers each year.

Conversely, on average, there were 96 black males who are killed by white police officers each year–and another 300 white males who are killed by police officers according to FBI statistics.

Then there’s this… There were 431 black killers of “whites” in 2014, compared to 193 “white” killers of blacks while blacks make up only 13% of the national population. There were approximately 6,000 black on black murders last year.

[Just_A_Guy]

I wouldn't be too sure of that.  Some anomalies about that investigation, as well as some unusual elements related to the Grand Jury, are starting to bring that into question.  

 

I'm pretty comfortable with Wilson's acquittal in that particular case, but I'm not particularly fond of him as an individual or as a cop.  IIRC, some video arose during the course of the investigation depicting a separate incident where Wilson basically got in someone's face for videoing him (which is perfectly legal).

[bytor2112]

Incidentally.....the folks crying racism should probably know that of the 6 officers, three of them are black.

[Guest MormonGator]

Incidentally.....the folks crying racism should probably know that of the 6 officers, three of them are black.

Very good point. 

[bytor2112]

Odd day when Alan Dershowitz and I are on similar pages....

 

Alan Dershowitz really went after Baltimore State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby today forcharging the six cops involved in the death ofFreddie Gray, saying it was entirely based on politics and “crowd control.