What would it take for Jews and Muslims to reconcile?

[tesuji]

OK, this question is straying into politics, which I am trying to generally avoid. But --

Of course Muslims and Jews have a lot of trouble now getting along, based on what I read in the news. What would it take for them to ever be reconciled? Perhaps a lot of Jews and Muslims might not be able to imagine this ever happening. But what would it take?

I like to idealistically believe than any conflict can be resolved. Certainly, the world would be a safer and more peaceful place if tensions in the Middle East went away.

I also understand that this is an emotional and frustrating question for many Jews and Muslims. I apologize if this question causes distress or offense. I guess for fairness we could hope both Jews and Muslims might drop by to give their thoughts on this...

[Aish HaTorah]

28 minutes ago, tesuji said:

OK, this question is straying into politics, which I am trying to generally avoid. But --

Of course Muslims and Jews have a lot of trouble now getting along, based on what I read in the news. What would it take for them to ever be reconciled? Perhaps a lot of Jews and Muslims might not be able to imagine this ever happening. But what would it take?

I like to idealistically believe than any conflict can be resolved. Certainly, the world would be a safer and more peaceful place if tensions in the Middle East went away.

I also understand that this is an emotional and frustrating question for many Jews and Muslims. I apologize if this question causes distress or offense. I guess for fairness we could hope both Jews and Muslims might drop by to give their thoughts on this...

Hmmm.  If they all disappeared today...   You just had to go there, didn't you?

Can Muslims and Jews ever reconcile?  Do you want the long or the short answer?  The short answer is "no."  The long answer is "nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

With all candor, I cannot possibly envision this happening, short of them renouncing their faith or us renouncing ours, which is not likely on either side.  This isn't just a can of worms, this is THE can of worms.  We could fish for the next thousand years, and still have a boat full of bait.

I am...less than fond...of Muslims for so very many reasons.  Their twisting of scripture, their proclivity toward violence for its own sake.  Their eschatological views, their epistemological views.  This could go on forever...ok, ALL of their views on practically everything.

The problem goes back to Isaac and Ishmael.  We believe (and rightly so, IMNSHO) that the birthright went to Isaac.  They believe Ishmael.  Thus was the birth of contention ushered in.

If you truly want to discuss this (and I suspect you do), then perhaps we could start a new thread about it.  Oh, wait, you did.    I will give it more thought lest I ramble further.  Please share with me your views on a) if you think this is even a possibility and b) how that would take shape.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Just a "drive by" sort of thought. Why is it that people always want someone else to forgive and get along. I have people telling me to forgive my abuser, who I'm certain are holding grudges over much smaller offenses in their own lives.

I think we need to take care of the beams in our own eyes. Which in this case to me means I try to be a friend to both Jewish people and Muslims. I'll just work on my own issues which should be a lifetime worth of work.

[tesuji]

Do you think most Muslims are people who would cause you to be "less than fond?" 

There are over a billion Muslims. I like to think that most Muslims are peaceful, good people trying to live good lives. And just the ones who are the exception are the ones that make the news. Does their religion teach violence, or is it just some that interpret it that way?

Jesus taught us to love our neighbors, but obviously not all "so-called" Christians during history have followed this teaching. This doesn't mean Jesus was bad, just that some of his "followers" were bad. Is this possibly the same case with Muslims?

I'm trying to think if I've ever know any Muslims. I guess not. So I can't speak from experience. I have seen a couple documentaries that supposedly showed typical Muslim families and they weren't violent fanatics.

[Guest]

Promoting Ahmadiyya Islam would go a long way towards fixing the problems in the Muslim world, including the senseless feud with Jews that some Muslims are embroiled in.  (Ahmadiyya Islam is actually a restorationist branch of Islam of sorts, which fixes many of the issues that seem to be inherent in various branches of Islam.  If I were to convert to Islam, it would be Ahmadiyya Islam).

 

By no means is Ahmadiyya Islam the only Islamic group that is doing good things and having a positive effect, but they do stand out as displaying the very best of Islam. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by DoctorLemon

[Aish HaTorah]

18 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Just a "drive by" sort of thought. Why is it that people always want someone else to forgive and get along. I have people telling me to forgive my abuser, who I'm certain are holding grudges over much smaller offenses in their own lives.

I think we need to take care of the beams in our own eyes. Which in this case to me means I try to be a friend to both Jewish people and Muslims. I'll just work on my own issues which should be a lifetime worth of work.

You have more Chutzpah than do I.  I have always struggled with this.

[tesuji]

Keeping with my usually "fools rush in..." methodology (talking about things I'm no expert in):

I wonder if you can talk about a difference between the culture of Muslims and their actual religion. I believe there are "enlightened" Muslims, and that there are others who are living in a culture that Westerners would compare unfavorably with a medieval mindset - in their treatment of women, intolerance toward other religions and worldviews, etc.

I know that living in Utah I am sometimes bugged by things Mormons do or say, but these are almost always what I would call "Utah Mormon culture" rather than something that comes out of actual Mormon doctrine or theology. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by tesuji

[Aish HaTorah]

18 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Do you think most Muslims are people who would cause you to be "less than fond?"

There are over a billion Muslims. I like to think that most Muslims are peaceful, good people trying to live good lives. And just the ones who are the exception are the ones that make the news. Does their religion teach violence, or is it just some that interpret it that way?

Jesus taught us to love our neighbors, but obviously not all "so-called" Christians during history have followed this teaching. This doesn't mean Jesus was bad, just that some of his "followers" were bad. Is this possibly the same case with Muslims?

I'm trying to think if I've ever know any Muslims. I guess not. So I can't speak from experience. I have seen a couple documentaries that supposedly showed typical Muslim families and they weren't violent fanatics.

Muslims are quick to point out that the Quran implicitly states that taking the life of one innocent person would be the same as murdering all of humanity.  True, it does say this.  What they fail to share is that they do not consider them to be innocent.  Therefore, it isn't murder.

Are all Muslims bad people?  Clearly not.  Is the potential for violence inherent in their deeply held creeds?  I believe so.  Those that say that radical Muslims distort the teachings of their scripture have not, in my opinion, carefully read said scripture.  If they did so, they would either correct their beliefs or lean toward violent enforcement of those beliefs.

I believe that many of them are peaceful and loving.  I do not believe that their faith is.

[tesuji]

I appears not everyone agrees that Islam is necessarily a violent religion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence#Favorable_perceptions

From what I know about the Quran, there is stuff in there that would justify violence in some cases.

However, I've also heard people say that the Quran is a big book and says a lot of things. And maybe it's not always consistent, and maybe open in interpretation in some cases? And to some degree you can find whatever you want in there to justify what you want to do? I need to read the Quran. Also, of course there are later people who preached and wrote Muslim commentaries, that have their own interpretations.

Edited April 22, 2016 by tesuji

[Aish HaTorah]

On a side note, I do find myself frequently praying for Muslims.  Not praying that they will change, necessarily, but that those inclined to violence will be healed of this line of thinking.  I pray for the peace of Jerusalem and Christians as well.

It is always a simple prayer of healing.

If you recall in the book of Numbers, Miriam was kvetching about Moses choosing Zipporah for a wife.  She wasn't a Jew, after all, and Miriam was not well pleased with her brother's "foolishness."  G-d, in turn, wasn't please with her, and she was struck with leprosy.  At that point, Moses, who was NOT known for brevity, prayed a simple and eloquent prayer on behalf of his sister:

"El, na r'fa na lah."

"And Moses cried unto the L-RD, saying: 'Heal her now, O G-d, I beseech Thee.'" - Numbers 12:13

Simple.  Replete with sincerity.  The way, I believe, many of our prayers should be.

[tesuji]

43 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

On a side note, I do find myself frequently praying for Muslims.  Not praying that they will change, necessarily, but that those inclined to violence will be healed of this line of thinking.  I pray for the peace of Jerusalem and Christians as well.

It is always a simple prayer of healing.

If you recall in the book of Numbers, Miriam was kvetching about Moses choosing Zipporah for a wife.  She wasn't a Jew, after all, and Miriam was not well pleased with her brother's "foolishness."  G-d, in turn, wasn't please with her, and she was struck with leprosy.  At that point, Moses, who was NOT known for brevity, prayed a simple and eloquent prayer on behalf of his sister:

"El, na r'fa na lah."

"And Moses cried unto the L-RD, saying: 'Heal her now, O G-d, I beseech Thee.'" - Numbers 12:13

Simple.  Replete with sincerity.  The way, I believe, many of our prayers should be.

I love that prayer - "Heal her now." We all need healing, I think.

After I learn enough Hebrew, I'm going to memorize that and use it all the time.

[Aish HaTorah]

I was sitting here considering why I get upset with this topic.  I suppose it has to do with a history of persecution.  Granted, we have consistently ignored G-d's clear warnings on many occasions, leading to our suffering.  BUT, when major world leaders, who subscribe to Islam, call publically for the destruction of ALL Jews (and, I might add, Christians), it tends to get under my skin just a bit.  Color me silly, but it does.  So...this leads me to ask:  Do these Muslim leaders a) not know their religion, b) know their religion very well and believe that their comments are supported by scripture, or c) lie?  Perhaps they don't really mean what they've said.

The point is this:  When it comes to protecting my freedom, my family, my faith, myself, and my beloved Christian friends, I cannot help but take such comments personally and seriously.

[Aish HaTorah]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

I wonder if you can talk about a difference between the culture of Muslims and their actual religion.

That is an excellent question.  I believe that one cannot stay true to the tenants of Islam and remain on "friendly" terms forever with those not of that faith.  It simply cannot be contrived within the narrative of their belief system.

[Aish HaTorah]

6 minutes ago, tesuji said:

We all need healing, I think.

 

Indeed, we do.  "Heal us, O L-RD, and we shall be healed."

[tesuji]

I can well understand what you are saying, about getting upset at some Islamic leaders. We have evil demagogues in our country too, who are happy to incite people, either for ideology or to gain power for themselves.

I was reading yesterday about what happened to "Temple Judaism," if that's the right term, and the rise of rabbinical Judaism. This led me to reading about Hadrian and the Diaspora from Palestine in that day. Amazing and terrible. Why don't the rest of us non-Jews know about this history? And of course the pogroms in Russia, which we all learned about in Fiddler on the Roof. I'm sure there are many other persecutions. The Holocaust, obviously. I imagine at some point you get tired of putting up with it... ("understatement" - of course you do).

Edited April 22, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

9 minutes ago, Aish HaTorah said:

That is an excellent question.  I believe that one cannot stay true to the tenants of Islam and remain on "friendly" terms forever with those not of that faith.  It simply cannot be contrived within the narrative of their belief system.

This is an interesting point for Mormons too. We rather boldly proclaim our religion is "the only true and living church on the face of the earth." Mostly in our own church meetings - it's not great marketing elsewhere

So I always think we Mormons are in danger, with this thinking, of becoming intolerant and self-righteous. I haven't seen it much, but it's possible.

Luckily we have many quotes from our founder/prophet Joseph Smith, to remind us about being tolerant, allowing religious freedom and freedom to choose one's beliefs.

Edited April 22, 2016 by tesuji

[Aish HaTorah]

4 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I can well understand what you are saying, about getting upset at some Islamic leaders. We have evil demagogues in our country too, who are happy to incite people, either for ideology or to gain power for themselves.

I was reading yesterday about what happened to "Temple Judaism," if that's the right term, and the rise of rabbinical Judaism. This led me to reading about Hadrian and the Diaspora from Palestine in that day. Amazing and terrible. Why don't the rest of us non-Jews know about this history? And of course the pogroms in Russia, which we all learned about in Fiddler on the Roof. I'm sure there are many other persecutions. The Holocaust, obviously. I imagine at some point you get tired of putting up with it... ("understatement" - of course you do).

My son has a t-shirt that says:

Civilizations, nations and empires that have tried

to destroy the Jewish People:

NATION                    STATUS

Ancient Egypt            X - GONE

Philistines                  X - GONE

Assyrian Empire        X - GONE

Babylonian Empire    X - GONE

Persian Empire          X - GONE

Greek Empire            X - GONE

Roman Empire           X - GONE

Byzantine Empire       X - GONE

Crusaders                   X - GONE

Spanish Empire          X - GONE

Nazi Germany            X - GONE

Soviet Union               X - GONE

Iran                              ???

The Jewish People

The smallest of nations, but with a Friend in the highest of places!

So...BE NICE!

 

[tesuji]

I like that list. Sanders should take heed too 

Reminds me of:

Nietzsche, 1882: "God is Dead."
God, 2016: "Nietzsche is dead."

Edited April 22, 2016 by tesuji

[Aish HaTorah]

27 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I like that list. Sanders should take heed too 

Reminds me of:

Nietzsche, 1882: "God is Dead."
God, 2016: "Nietzsche is dead."

Bernie the NOT Jew. 

I think his bar mitzvah was around the same time as Moses'.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Aish HaTorah

[Latter Days Guy]

I think the easiest way for reconciliation is for Israel to actually fulfil the commitments it made in the Oslo accords and withdraw from the occupied territories.  Recognise the state of Palestine (which they said they would do in the Oslo accords) and begin, along with the Palestinian authorities to actually put the two state solution they agreed to (again in the Oslo accords) into place. Oh and maybe stop using Gaza as testing ground for your latest weapons every few years would be nice too.

[Latter Days Guy]

On 4/22/2016 at 8:08 PM, Aish HaTorah said:

My son has a t-shirt that says:

Civilizations, nations and empires that have tried

to destroy the Jewish People:

NATION                    STATUS

Ancient Egypt            X - GONE

Philistines                  X - GONE

Assyrian Empire        X - GONE

Babylonian Empire    X - GONE

Persian Empire          X - GONE

Greek Empire            X - GONE

Roman Empire           X - GONE

Byzantine Empire       X - GONE

Crusaders                   X - GONE

Spanish Empire          X - GONE

Nazi Germany            X - GONE

Soviet Union               X - GONE

Iran                              ???

The Jewish People

The smallest of nations, but with a Friend in the highest of places!

So...BE NICE!

 

Israel as a nation has only been around for 68 years, so not very long, and its always good to have the good ole US of A in your back pocket, that is who you were referring to as your friend in high places?

[Larry Cotrell]

1 hour ago, Latter Days Guy said:

Israel as a nation has only been around for 68 years, so not very long, and its always good to have the good ole US of A in your back pocket, that is who you were referring to as your friend in high places?

A friend in the highest of places would be God. And on the contrary, it's good for the US to have Israel in its back pocket. 

[Latter Days Guy]

10 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

A friend in the highest of places would be God. And on the contrary, it's good for the US to have Israel in its back pocket. 

You equate the modern political state of israel with the biblical state of Israel? And it certainly does seem to be the case of the tail wagging the dog in the relationship of the US and Israel. 

[Aish HaTorah]

The shirt references the Jewish people and not necessarily the state of Israel.  I do think Israel, the nation, does fairly well in holding its own surrounded by hostile regimes who have made no secret, in some cases, about their desire to wipe Israel and Jews off the face of the earth. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Aish HaTorah

[Larry Cotrell]

I saw that t-shirt when I was in Jerusalem last year, thought about buying it, I should have. 

With instances like the six-day war, it's clear that God won't let anyone wipe them out. Israel is here to stay, and I'm happy about that.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Larry Cotrell