Edspringer Posted June 23, 2016 Report Posted June 23, 2016 Hi, everybody. Greetings from Brazil! I got a question for you: what do you guys know about the general assembly, mentioned in scriptures like D&C 107? I’ve noticed that sometimes it’s linked to the Church of the Firstborn. Thanx in advance. Quote
tesuji Posted June 23, 2016 Report Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) The intro blurb to Hebrews 12, written by Elder McConkie I believe, says, "Exalted Saints belong to the Church of the Firstborn." It's apparently referring to Hebrews 12:22-23: Quote 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, D&C 107 affirms this: Quote 18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church— 19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. Edited June 23, 2016 by tesuji Edspringer and LeSellers 2 Quote
CV75 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 On 6/23/2016 at 10:13 AM, Edspringer said: Hi, everybody. Greetings from Brazil! I got a question for you: what do you guys know about the general assembly, mentioned in scriptures like D&C 107? I’ve noticed that sometimes it’s linked to the Church of the Firstborn. Thanx in advance. The term "assembly" (English translation of the Hebrew) and "church" (English translation of Greek) are synonyms (the Greek translated from the Hebrew) according to the original words... for example, compare Acts 7:38 with James 2:2 and Number 10:2-3; 20:6-8; Leviticus 4:13; 8:4, and wherever "congregation" is used in the Old Testament. Quote
LeSellers Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 35 minutes ago, CV75 said: The term "assembly" (English translation of the Hebrew) and "church" (English translation of Greek) are synonyms (the Greek translated from the Hebrew) according to the original words... for example, compare Acts 7:38 with James 2:2 and Number 10:2-3; 20:6-8; Leviticus 4:13; 8:4, and wherever "congregation" is used in the Old Testament. קהל qâhâl shows up 122 times in the Old Testament. It's congregation 85 times, assembly 17 times, company 16 times, multitude thrice, and companies once קהל is assembly, company, congregation, convocation. עדה ‛êdâh is there 148 times. as congregation 123 times, as company 13 times, as assembly 8 times, and once each for assemblies, multitude, people, and swarm. עדה is congregation, gathering. ἐκκλησία ekklēsia is in the New Testament 116 times, as church 77 times, as churches 36 times, and as assembly thrice. ἐκκλησία is a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. The word church derives from Middle English chir (i) che, Old English cir (i) ce ≪ Greek kȳri (a) kón (dôma) the Lord's (house), neuter of kȳriakós of the master, equivalent to kȳ́ri (os) master ( kŷr (os) power + -ios noun suffix) + -akos, variant of -ikos -ic Lehi Edspringer 1 Quote
CV75 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 11 hours ago, LeSellers said: קהל qâhâl shows up 122 times in the Old Testament. It's congregation 85 times, assembly 17 times, company 16 times, multitude thrice, and companies once קהל is assembly, company, congregation, convocation. עדה ‛êdâh is there 148 times. as congregation 123 times, as company 13 times, as assembly 8 times, and once each for assemblies, multitude, people, and swarm. עדה is congregation, gathering. ἐκκλησία ekklēsia is in the New Testament 116 times, as church 77 times, as churches 36 times, and as assembly thrice. ἐκκλησία is a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. The word church derives from Middle English chir (i) che, Old English cir (i) ce ≪ Greek kȳri (a) kón (dôma) the Lord's (house), neuter of kȳriakós of the master, equivalent to kȳ́ri (os) master ( kŷr (os) power + -ios noun suffix) + -akos, variant of -ikos -ic Lehi Do you have examples from the Bible verses where the original Hebrew (and maybe in some few cases Aramaic?) word for “assembly” and the corresponding Greek and English translations convey the same idea, of something akin to “a body or organization of like religious believers” or “the officialdom of said body”? Edspringer 1 Quote
LeSellers Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, CV75 said: Do you have examples from the Bible verses where the original Hebrew (and maybe in some few cases Aramaic?) word for “assembly” and the corresponding Greek and English translations convey the same idea, of something akin to “a body or organization of like religious believers” or “the officialdom of said body”? Aramaic, no. I don't recall the words in Hebrew ever referring specifically to "a body of like religious believers" except that in Hebrew, the Israelites and later the Jews were all exactly that. So any passage in the Old Testament with "congregation" or "assembly", etc., would work In the New Testament, the church, as "the officialdom" is clearly just that in Matt 16:13~19, where Peter gets the keys of the Kingdom, etc. Elsewise, "church" means the body of believers. Lehi Edited June 26, 2016 by LeSellers Edspringer and CV75 2 Quote
LeSellers Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 Numbers in parentheses indicate multiple uses of the word in the same passage. קהל qâhâl congregation Lev 4:14, Lev 4:21, Lev 16:17, Lev 16:33, Num 10:7, Num 15:15, Num 16:3, Num 16:33, Num 16:47, Num 19:20, Num 20:4, Num 20:10, Num 20:12, Deu 23:1-3 (5), Deu 23:8, Jos 8:35, Jdg 21:5, 1Ki 8:14 (2), 1Ki 8:22, 1Ki 8:55, 1Ki 8:65, 1Ki 12:3, 1Ch 13:2, 1Ch 13:4, 1Ch 28:8, 1Ch 29:1, 1Ch 29:10, 1Ch 29:20 (2), 2Ch 1:3, 2Ch 1:5, 2Ch 6:3 (2), 2Ch 6:12-13 (2), 2Ch 7:8, 2Ch 20:5, 2Ch 20:14, 2Ch 23:3, 2Ch 24:6, 2Ch 28:14, 2Ch 29:23, 2Ch 29:28, 2Ch 29:31-32 (2), 2Ch 30:2, 2Ch 30:4, 2Ch 30:13, 2Ch 30:17, 2Ch 30:24-25 (4), 2Ch 31:18, Ezr 2:64, Ezr 10:1, Ezr 10:8, Ezr 10:12, Ezr 10:14, Neh 5:13, Neh 7:66, Neh 8:2, Neh 8:17, Neh 13:1, Job 30:28, Psa 22:22, Psa 22:25, Psa 26:5, Psa 35:18, Psa 40:9-10 (2), Psa 89:5, Psa 107:32, Psa 149:1, Pro 5:14, Pro 21:16, Pro 26:26, Lam 1:10, Joe 2:16, Mic 2:5 assembly Exo 12:5-6 (3), Exo 16:3, Lev 4:13, Num 20:5-6 (2), Deu 5:22, Deu 9:10, Deu 10:4, Deu 18:16, Jdg 20:2, Jdg 21:8, 1Sa 17:47, 2Ch 30:23, Jer 26:17, Jer 50:9, Eze 23:24 company Gen 35:11, Num 22:4, Jer 31:8, Eze 16:40, Eze 17:17, Eze 23:46-47 (2), Eze 27:27, Eze 27:34, Eze 32:3, Eze 32:22-23 (2), Eze 38:4, Eze 38:7, Eze 38:13, Eze 38:15 multitude Gen 48:3-4 (2), Jer 44:15 companies Eze 26:7 עדה ‛êdâhcongregation Exo 12:3, Exo 12:6, Exo 12:19, Exo 12:47, Exo 16:1-2 (2), Exo 16:9-10 (2), Exo 16:22, Exo 17:1, Exo 34:31, Exo 35:1, Exo 35:4, Exo 35:20, Exo 38:25, Lev 4:13, Lev 4:15, Lev 8:3, Lev 9:5 (2), Lev 10:17, Lev 16:5, Lev 19:2, Lev 24:14, Lev 24:16, Num 1:2, Num 1:16, Num 1:18, Num 1:53, Num 3:7, Num 4:34, Num 8:20, Num 13:26 (2), Num 14:1-2 (2), Num 14:5, Num 14:10, Num 14:27, Num 14:35-36 (2), Num 15:24-26 (4), Num 15:33, Num 15:36, Num 16:3, Num 16:9 (2), Num 16:19 (2), Num 16:21-22 (2), Num 16:24, Num 16:26, Num 16:41-42 (2), Num 16:45-46 (2), Num 19:9, Num 20:1-2 (2), Num 20:8, Num 20:11, Num 20:22, Num 20:27, Num 20:29, Num 25:6-7 (2), Num 26:2, Num 26:9, Num 27:2, Num 27:14, Num 27:16-17 (2), Num 27:19-22 (4), Num 31:12-13 (2), Num 31:16, Num 31:26-27 (2), Num 31:43, Num 32:2, Num 32:4, Num 35:12, Num 35:24-25 (3), Jos 9:15, Jos 9:18-19 (3), Jos 9:21, Jos 9:27, Jos 18:1, Jos 20:6, Jos 20:9, Jos 22:12, Jos 22:16-18 (3), Jos 22:20, Jos 22:30, Jdg 20:1, Jdg 21:10, Jdg 21:13, Jdg 21:16, 1Ki 8:5, 1Ki 12:20, 2Ch 5:6, Job 15:34, Psa 1:5, Psa 7:7, Psa 74:2, Psa 111:1 (2), Jer 6:18, Jer 30:20, Hos 7:12 company Num 14:7, Num 16:5-6 (2), Num 16:11, Num 16:16, Num 16:40, Num 26:9-10 (2), Num 27:3 (2), Job 16:7, Psa 106:17-18 (2) assembly Lev 8:4, Num 8:9, Num 10:2-3 (2), Num 16:2, Num 20:8, Psa 22:16, Pro 5:14 assemblies Psa 86:14 (2) multitude Psa 68:30 people Lev 10:6 swarm Jdg 14:8 Greek ἐκκλησία ekklēsia church Mat 16:18, Mat 18:17 (2), Act 2:47, Act 5:11, Act 7:38, Act 8:1, Act 8:3, Act 11:22, Act 11:26, Act 12:1, Act 12:5, Act 13:1, Act 14:23, Act 14:27, Act 15:3-4 (2), Act 18:22 (2), Act 20:17, Act 20:28, Rom 16:1, Rom 16:5, Rom 16:23, 1Co 1:2, 1Co 4:17, 1Co 6:4, 1Co 10:32, 1Co 11:18, 1Co 11:22, 1Co 12:28, 1Co 14:4-5 (2), 1Co 14:12, 1Co 14:19, 1Co 14:23, 1Co 14:28, 1Co 14:35, 1Co 15:9, 1Co 16:19, 2Co 1:1, Gal 1:13, Eph 1:22, Eph 3:10, Eph 3:21, Eph 5:23-25 (3), Eph 5:27, Eph 5:29, Eph 5:32, Phi 3:6, Phi 4:15, Col 1:18, Col 1:24, Col 4:15-16 (2), 1Th 1:1, 2Th 1:1, 1Ti 3:5, 1Ti 5:15-16 (2), Phm 1:2, Heb 2:12, Heb 12:23, Jam 5:14, 1Pe 5:13, 3Jo 1:6, 3Jo 1:9-10 (2), Rev 2:1, Rev 2:8, Rev 2:12, Rev 2:18, Rev 3:1, Rev 3:7, Rev 3:14 churches Act 9:31, Act 15:41, Act 16:5, Rom 16:4, Rom 16:16, 1Co 7:17, 1Co 11:16, 1Co 14:33-34 (2), 1Co 16:1, 1Co 16:19, 2Co 8:1, 2Co 8:18-19 (2), 2Co 8:23-24 (2), 2Co 11:8, 2Co 11:28, 2Co 12:13, Gal 1:2, Gal 1:22, 1Th 2:14, 2Th 1:4, Rev 1:4, Rev 1:11, Rev 1:20 (2), Rev 2:7, Rev 2:11, Rev 2:17, Rev 2:23, Rev 2:29, Rev 3:6, Rev 3:13, Rev 3:22, Rev 22:16 assembly Act 19:32, Act 19:39, Act 19:41 Enjoy, Lehi Edspringer 1 Quote
Edspringer Posted June 26, 2016 Author Report Posted June 26, 2016 1 hour ago, LeSellers said: Numbers in parentheses indicate multiple uses of the word in the same passage. קהל qâhâl congregation Lev 4:14, Lev 4:21, Lev 16:17, Lev 16:33, Num 10:7, Num 15:15, Num 16:3, Num 16:33, Num 16:47, Num 19:20, Num 20:4, Num 20:10, Num 20:12, Deu 23:1-3 (5), Deu 23:8, Jos 8:35, Jdg 21:5, 1Ki 8:14 (2), 1Ki 8:22, 1Ki 8:55, 1Ki 8:65, 1Ki 12:3, 1Ch 13:2, 1Ch 13:4, 1Ch 28:8, 1Ch 29:1, 1Ch 29:10, 1Ch 29:20 (2), 2Ch 1:3, 2Ch 1:5, 2Ch 6:3 (2), 2Ch 6:12-13 (2), 2Ch 7:8, 2Ch 20:5, 2Ch 20:14, 2Ch 23:3, 2Ch 24:6, 2Ch 28:14, 2Ch 29:23, 2Ch 29:28, 2Ch 29:31-32 (2), 2Ch 30:2, 2Ch 30:4, 2Ch 30:13, 2Ch 30:17, 2Ch 30:24-25 (4), 2Ch 31:18, Ezr 2:64, Ezr 10:1, Ezr 10:8, Ezr 10:12, Ezr 10:14, Neh 5:13, Neh 7:66, Neh 8:2, Neh 8:17, Neh 13:1, Job 30:28, Psa 22:22, Psa 22:25, Psa 26:5, Psa 35:18, Psa 40:9-10 (2), Psa 89:5, Psa 107:32, Psa 149:1, Pro 5:14, Pro 21:16, Pro 26:26, Lam 1:10, Joe 2:16, Mic 2:5 assembly Exo 12:5-6 (3), Exo 16:3, Lev 4:13, Num 20:5-6 (2), Deu 5:22, Deu 9:10, Deu 10:4, Deu 18:16, Jdg 20:2, Jdg 21:8, 1Sa 17:47, 2Ch 30:23, Jer 26:17, Jer 50:9, Eze 23:24 company Gen 35:11, Num 22:4, Jer 31:8, Eze 16:40, Eze 17:17, Eze 23:46-47 (2), Eze 27:27, Eze 27:34, Eze 32:3, Eze 32:22-23 (2), Eze 38:4, Eze 38:7, Eze 38:13, Eze 38:15 multitude Gen 48:3-4 (2), Jer 44:15 companies Eze 26:7 עדה ‛êdâhcongregation Exo 12:3, Exo 12:6, Exo 12:19, Exo 12:47, Exo 16:1-2 (2), Exo 16:9-10 (2), Exo 16:22, Exo 17:1, Exo 34:31, Exo 35:1, Exo 35:4, Exo 35:20, Exo 38:25, Lev 4:13, Lev 4:15, Lev 8:3, Lev 9:5 (2), Lev 10:17, Lev 16:5, Lev 19:2, Lev 24:14, Lev 24:16, Num 1:2, Num 1:16, Num 1:18, Num 1:53, Num 3:7, Num 4:34, Num 8:20, Num 13:26 (2), Num 14:1-2 (2), Num 14:5, Num 14:10, Num 14:27, Num 14:35-36 (2), Num 15:24-26 (4), Num 15:33, Num 15:36, Num 16:3, Num 16:9 (2), Num 16:19 (2), Num 16:21-22 (2), Num 16:24, Num 16:26, Num 16:41-42 (2), Num 16:45-46 (2), Num 19:9, Num 20:1-2 (2), Num 20:8, Num 20:11, Num 20:22, Num 20:27, Num 20:29, Num 25:6-7 (2), Num 26:2, Num 26:9, Num 27:2, Num 27:14, Num 27:16-17 (2), Num 27:19-22 (4), Num 31:12-13 (2), Num 31:16, Num 31:26-27 (2), Num 31:43, Num 32:2, Num 32:4, Num 35:12, Num 35:24-25 (3), Jos 9:15, Jos 9:18-19 (3), Jos 9:21, Jos 9:27, Jos 18:1, Jos 20:6, Jos 20:9, Jos 22:12, Jos 22:16-18 (3), Jos 22:20, Jos 22:30, Jdg 20:1, Jdg 21:10, Jdg 21:13, Jdg 21:16, 1Ki 8:5, 1Ki 12:20, 2Ch 5:6, Job 15:34, Psa 1:5, Psa 7:7, Psa 74:2, Psa 111:1 (2), Jer 6:18, Jer 30:20, Hos 7:12 company Num 14:7, Num 16:5-6 (2), Num 16:11, Num 16:16, Num 16:40, Num 26:9-10 (2), Num 27:3 (2), Job 16:7, Psa 106:17-18 (2) assembly Lev 8:4, Num 8:9, Num 10:2-3 (2), Num 16:2, Num 20:8, Psa 22:16, Pro 5:14 assemblies Psa 86:14 (2) multitude Psa 68:30 people Lev 10:6 swarm Jdg 14:8 Greek ἐκκλησία ekklēsia church Mat 16:18, Mat 18:17 (2), Act 2:47, Act 5:11, Act 7:38, Act 8:1, Act 8:3, Act 11:22, Act 11:26, Act 12:1, Act 12:5, Act 13:1, Act 14:23, Act 14:27, Act 15:3-4 (2), Act 18:22 (2), Act 20:17, Act 20:28, Rom 16:1, Rom 16:5, Rom 16:23, 1Co 1:2, 1Co 4:17, 1Co 6:4, 1Co 10:32, 1Co 11:18, 1Co 11:22, 1Co 12:28, 1Co 14:4-5 (2), 1Co 14:12, 1Co 14:19, 1Co 14:23, 1Co 14:28, 1Co 14:35, 1Co 15:9, 1Co 16:19, 2Co 1:1, Gal 1:13, Eph 1:22, Eph 3:10, Eph 3:21, Eph 5:23-25 (3), Eph 5:27, Eph 5:29, Eph 5:32, Phi 3:6, Phi 4:15, Col 1:18, Col 1:24, Col 4:15-16 (2), 1Th 1:1, 2Th 1:1, 1Ti 3:5, 1Ti 5:15-16 (2), Phm 1:2, Heb 2:12, Heb 12:23, Jam 5:14, 1Pe 5:13, 3Jo 1:6, 3Jo 1:9-10 (2), Rev 2:1, Rev 2:8, Rev 2:12, Rev 2:18, Rev 3:1, Rev 3:7, Rev 3:14 churches Act 9:31, Act 15:41, Act 16:5, Rom 16:4, Rom 16:16, 1Co 7:17, 1Co 11:16, 1Co 14:33-34 (2), 1Co 16:1, 1Co 16:19, 2Co 8:1, 2Co 8:18-19 (2), 2Co 8:23-24 (2), 2Co 11:8, 2Co 11:28, 2Co 12:13, Gal 1:2, Gal 1:22, 1Th 2:14, 2Th 1:4, Rev 1:4, Rev 1:11, Rev 1:20 (2), Rev 2:7, Rev 2:11, Rev 2:17, Rev 2:23, Rev 2:29, Rev 3:6, Rev 3:13, Rev 3:22, Rev 22:16 assembly Act 19:32, Act 19:39, Act 19:41 Enjoy, Lehi Great help, LeSellers! Thanx a lot. When the scripture says" the general assembly and church of the firstborn" (D&C 107:19), what comes to your mind? Quote
LeSellers Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Edspringer said: When the scripture says" the general assembly and church of the firstborn" (D&C 107:19), what comes to your mind? Two things. 1) The general assembly is a political assembly, something like a congress or a true democratic town meeting, e.g., the Grand Council in our pre-mortal lives. 2) The Church of the firstborn is the ecclesiastical assembly, and its structure (officialdom). Lehi Edited June 26, 2016 by LeSellers Edspringer 1 Quote
CV75 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 7 hours ago, LeSellers said: Aramaic, no. I don't recall the words in Hebrew ever referring specifically to "a body of like religious believers" except that in Hebrew, the Israelites and later the Jews were all exactly that. So any passage in the Old Testament with "congregation" or "assembly", etc., would work In the New Testament, the church, as "the officialdom" is clearly just that in Matt 16:13~19, where Peter gets the keys of the Kingdom, etc. Elsewise, "church" means the body of believers. Lehi Thank you (and for the next 2 posts, too!). Quote
Edspringer Posted June 26, 2016 Author Report Posted June 26, 2016 1 hour ago, LeSellers said: Two things. 1) The general assembly is a political assembly, something like a congress or a true democratic town meeting, e.g., the Grand Council in our pre-mortal lives. 2) The Church of the firstborn is the ecclesiastical assembly, and its structure (officialdom). Lehi Super! As English is not my first language, can you please explain the word " officialdom"? Thanx again Quote
CV75 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, LeSellers said: Two things. 1) The general assembly is a political assembly, something like a congress or a true democratic town meeting, e.g., the Grand Council in our pre-mortal lives. 2) The Church of the firstborn is the ecclesiastical assembly, and its structure (officialdom). Lehi 1) Interesting that in the USA, a number of State legislatures use that term for themselves (from Wikipdia): Arkansas General Assembly Colorado General Assembly Connecticut General Assembly Delaware General Assembly Georgia General Assembly Illinois General Assembly Indiana General Assembly Iowa General Assembly Kentucky General Assembly Maryland General Assembly Missouri General Assembly New Jersey General Assembly, lower house of the bicameral New Jersey Legislature North Carolina General Assembly Ohio General Assembly Pennsylvania General Assembly Rhode Island General Assembly South Carolina General Assembly Tennessee General Assembly Vermont General Assembly Virginia General Assembly 2) Interesting that in the Book of Mormon, "synagogue" was used to describe a Christian place of worship (a church in that sense) after the Lord fulfilled the law of Moses and established His church among the Nephites: 3 Nephi 18:32, Moroni 7;31 Edited June 26, 2016 by CV75 to cite source for (1); formatting Edspringer 1 Quote
LeSellers Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Edspringer said: As English is not my first language, can you please explain the word " officialdom"? CV75 used it, and I was only using the same term. I doubt most people would use it more than five times in their lives. It seems to be a synonym for hierarchy, the officers in the Church, especially, the Brethren, maybe down to Stake presidents.. Lehi Edited June 27, 2016 by LeSellers Edspringer 1 Quote
LeSellers Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 16 minutes ago, CV75 said: Interesting that in the Book of Mormon, "synagogue" was used to describe a Christian place of worship Synagogue: from Middle English synagoge < Late Latin synagōga < Greek synagōgḗ assembly, meeting, equivalent to syn- syn- + agōgḗ, noun use of feminine of agōgós (adj.) gathering, derivative of ágein to bring, lead; akin to Latin agere to drive Lehi Edspringer 1 Quote
CV75 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 2 hours ago, Edspringer said: Super! As English is not my first language, can you please explain the word " officialdom"? Thanx again I meant it to convey “the people in an organization or government who are in positions of authority” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/officialdom ... But here’s an interesting, disparaging use that I find a bit amusing: “...used to refer to those people who have a position of authority, especially in government, usually when they are preventing you from doing what you want to do or are slow or not effective” http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/officialdom Edspringer 1 Quote
CV75 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Posted June 26, 2016 2 hours ago, LeSellers said: Synagogue: from Middle English synagoge < Late Latin synagōga < Greek synagōgḗ assembly, meeting, equivalent to syn- syn- + agōgḗ, noun use of feminine of agōgós (adj.) gathering, derivative of ágein to bring, lead; akin to Latin agere to drive Lehi I noticed it is used in the D&C to refer to any place of worship, and in a couple of instances specifically those of LDS or other Christian faiths--I had associated the term only with Jewish places of worship. Of course the four Gospels and Acts use it, and Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 use it in an interesting way (allowing that Satan has one -- the church of the devil from the Book of Mormon, and the great and abominable church founded by the devil). So all things indeed have their opposite! Edspringer 1 Quote
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