Did Women Ever Hold The Priesthood

[Penlady]

notes between *** stars are my comments-Penlady

I love how penlady uses one rogue bishop who isn't even sure about what he's doing to disprove the General Authorities and Church practice. Whatever floats your boat.

***I didn't say he was trying to disprove General Authorities or that I am. This woman was in a desperate situation and he was trying to think of a way she could care for her family alone, with as much power fro god as possible.***

I don't see what all this is about.

If you were trying to lobby for womens' right to pass the sacrament or hold priesthood office, I'd get it. But none of you seem to be seeking such things. You're just saying, "According to such and such records, and if you interpret the Greek New Testament a certain way, then you see that women once held the Melchizedek Priesthood but not any office in it. Isn't that great?!"

***What's it all about? This is called a DISCUSSION board. We do not have to prove a point. We are DISCUSSING ideas. Get it? Some of us don't feel the need to insult others or to condemn their comments just to feel like we are better than them. To "belittle" is to "BE LITTLE". Just read and think and enjoy. You don't need to start a fight about every comment you read. Peace, out.

Penlady****

[CrimsonKairos]

Some of us don't feel the need to insult others or to condemn their comments just to feel like we are better than them.

Who in the world has insulted anyone or condemned anyone in this thread? Are you sure you've been reading the right thread?

[Snow]

Elphaba, you have answered your own question about whether women ever held the priesthood, but I can add that I have relatives who have received their second endowment, and when one relative (female) lived out in an area where she had no access to the priesthood, and needed it badly, she was given the priesthood by men in the bishopric, but was told not to make it common knowledge because it was frowned upon, but not forbidden. She did use that priesthood very effectively in healing others and making other things happen with that power. The Bishop that ordained her said something like "I don't know if this will work (for him to endow her with the priesthood), but its worth a try, and I deeply feel the need for you to have the priesthood in your life, and the worst effect it can cause, is like putting oil on a person's head, no damage. Its up to God whether he honors our request to let you have the priesthood or not, but women in the past did have the gift of healing, because they were the ones home with the women and children and the sick. Men were not usually very accessible."

Blessings,

Penlady

... and then Dorothy clicked her heels three times and said. "There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home."

Was it live or was it Memorex?

[Gaia]

Sorry Gaia, I didn't read that whole thing. Whew!

It's not like having the priesthood lets you get into a VIP room in the Church with free ice cream sundaes and big screen tv's playing BYU-TV 24/7.

Like Elphaba said, your point is beyond the scope of her original post. And I think you don't understand what the priesthood is for. It doesn't glorify those who hold it; those who hold it glorify God. ....

GAIA:

Hi CK --

Please go back and read the 23rd-25th paragraph(s) in the "Nightmare Plan of Salvation" post (#67) -- the section that begins,

If you ever mention the idea again, the "big guns" are brought out" -- -- giving special attention to the section on "Service"

Thanks --

~Gaia

[checkerboy]

<div class='quotemain'>I feel that this discussion is a spin off the familiar equal rights arguement but we can see how devestating to our society that has become.

Checkerboy,

This discussion has been about a short period of time from the late 1830s to the early 1840s. The fact that you would write what you did above tells me you haven't read one thing I have written and know nothing about the subject matter.

In the future, if you're not going to actually read my posts, please don't bother to post in my threads. I know it's your choice, but I'm asking you as a favor.

Thanks,

Elphaba

You know I try not to post here often because everytime I do someone decides that what I have to say isn't worth their time, but when I see people who don't understand certain principles I feel it is my obligation to enlighten. You don't have to read my posts. I have read everything you've written. What you quoted didn't have anything to do with the time period you mentioned, yes, I was refering to this discussion on this board. It seems to have taken a very pro feminist slant. As far as the subject matter goes I have been through the temple and I believe I do understand the principles and the covenants that I have made. You of course have admitted that you haven't been through the temple and are relying on quotes from others that have become disaffected from the church. I didn't come here to argue but by saying what you said you show how little respect you have for others that don't believe the same as you.

I think, like Yedyid, I will look to other forums where the taint of atheists and misguided individuals hasn't yet taken hold. I will leave you all to corrupt this forum to your liking.

[Gaia]

You know I try not to post here often because everytime I do someone decides that what I have to say isn't worth their time, but when I see people who don't understand certain principles I feel it is my obligation to enlighten. You don't have to read my posts. I have read everything you've written. What you quoted didn't have anything to do with the time period you mentioned, yes, I was refering to this discussion on this board. It seems to have taken a very pro feminist slant. As far as the subject matter goes I have been through the temple and I believe I do understand the principles and the covenants that I have made. You of course have admitted that you haven't been through the temple and are relying on quotes from others that have become disaffected from the church. I didn't come here to argue but by saying what you said you show how little respect you have for others that don't believe the same as you.

I think, like Yedyid, I will look to other forums where the taint of atheists and misguided individuals hasn't yet taken hold. I will leave you all to corrupt this forum to your liking.

GAIA:

Hello Checkerboy.

I'm afraid that if this discussion has any "pro-feminist slant", that's my fault and not Elphaba's. She was very careful and emphatic to limit her focus and the discussion -- I'm the one who broadened it considerably. I would think that if you have any argument, it is with me.

I am not an atheist, although i certainly think any thoughtful, intelligent atheist would have worthwhile things to contribute to any discussion, just like anyone else....

In fact, in reading my Bible i notice that Jesus reserved his most scathing condemnations NOT for sinnners, NOT for unbeleivers, NOT even for Pagans -- in fact, it seems he complimented one Pagan for his faith (Matthew 8:8-13) and used another as an example of righteous behavior (See Luke 10 and please note: Samaritans were Hebrews who had incorporated Pagan practices into their religion and were therefore considered so "uncelan" that a good Jew, passing through the area, was obliged to go several days out of his way just to avoid stepping upon Samaritan land).

NO, he reserved his most vehement condemnations for those who prided themselves on having the "right" doctrine, the "right" Priesthood, the "right" answers, and who condemned, looked down upon, and even tried to silence or punish everyone else -- See for example, Matthew 15, 16, 22, 23.

I HAVE been through the Temple; in fact for several years i lived within five minutes of it and went every week, if not more. Furthermore, i have studyed LDS history and doctrine rather intently for my entire adult life -- including the Archives of the Church Historian's Office. If you have any doubts about the validity of my information, please do check out the many (LDS) quotes and references i inclulded in my work.

Now, since you were kind enough to "enlighten" where you thoght there was error, allow me to return the favor:

It is so easy to demonize people who think differently from ourselves, or to accept unfortunately negative and erroneous gossip -- So Here's how the dictionary actually defines "Feminism":

8 results for: feminism

–noun 1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.

3. feminine character.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1890–95; < F féminisme; see feminine, -ism]

—Related forms

fem·i·nist, noun, adjective

fem·i·nis·tic, adjective

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source fem·i·nism (fěm'ə-nĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key

n.

Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.

The movement organized around this belief.

(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

WordNet - Cite This Source feminism

noun

1. a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women

2. the movement aimed at equal rights for women [syn: feminist movement]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source

ˈfeminism noun

The doctrine — and the political movement based on it — that women should have the same economic, social, and political rights as men. (See under “Anthropology, Psychology, and Sociology.”)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition

Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Cite This Source

feminism

A movement for granting women political, social, and economic equality with men. (See women's movement.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition

Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

~End quoted material from Dictionary.

* * * *

It is difficult to understand how anyone could demonize a movement that merely

advocat[es] and works toward the social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Certainly *some* feminists have gone a bit overboard and advocated thigns with which other feminists ar uncomfortable and would disagree, and that's unfortunate. But as even LDS often say when someone reports a bad experience with a Bishop or ther LDS member -- one "bad apple" does not necessarily ruin and should not cause us to condemn an entire group of people.

-- But then, as LDS Apostle Franklin D Richards noted:

"Every now and then we hear men speak tauntingly of the sisters and lightly of their public duties, instead of suporting and encouraging them....There are also some who look with jealousy upon the moves of the sisters as though they might come to possess some of the gifts, and are afraid they [LDS women] will get away with some of the blessings of the gospel which only men ought to possess."

Because of this "envy and jealousy," Apostle Richards said some LDS men "don't like to accord to [the sisters] anything that will raise them up and make thier talents to shine forth as the daughters of Eve and Sarah." ("LDS Women's Exponent" 7 (1 NOv 1878): 86.)

Fortunately, the good, honorable LDS men who root out any such "envy and jealousy" within themselves and truly support their sisters, far outweigh those who still suffer with such immaturities.

I suppose you could decide to pick up your marbles and go somewhere where you won't be challenged by ideas, but it seems to me that sort of behavior pretty much negates a good part of our reason for having a Mortal Probationary Period.... I sincerely hope you will prayerfully consider my thoughts, and reconsider your own.

AT any rate, and whatever your decision i the matter -- Blessings to you --

~Gaia

[CrimsonKairos]

The problem with feminism comes when we try to force God to make the duties of men and women the same, because they're not. He's designed the genders according to His will and pleasure. I for one would feel rather stupid if I was a woman and I went to God and said, "Have you ever thought that you might have this priesthood thing wrong? Don't you think us women should have it too? I'm not sure you've thought it through because it's unfair to deny us something you give to men."

[Jason]

The problem with feminism comes when we try to force God to make the duties of men and women the same, because they're not. He's designed the genders according to His will and pleasure. I for one would feel rather stupid if I was a woman and I went to God and said, "Have you ever thought that you might have this priesthood thing wrong? Don't you think us women should have it too? I'm not sure you've thought it through because it's unfair to deny us something you give to men."

What evidence do you have, CK, that God said anything you are suggesting?

[CrimsonKairos]

I have hand-drawn facsimiles from the sealed portion of the golden plates. Alas, I am under orders not to show them to any but those who believe. B)

[Gaia]

<div class='quotemain'>

The problem with feminism comes when we try to force God to make the duties of men and women the same, because they're not. He's designed the genders according to His will and pleasure. I for one would feel rather stupid if I was a woman and I went to God and said, "Have you ever thought that you might have this priesthood thing wrong? Don't you think us women should have it too? I'm not sure you've thought it through because it's unfair to deny us something you give to men."

What evidence do you have, CK, that God said anything you are suggesting?

GAIA:

Good point, Jason. There are a lot of pronouncements made about the "nature" and "duties" of men and women -- but they're from mortal men, not God.

If anything, God seems to have "spoken" through the vast and varied diversity of arrangements that humans have devised in various cultures, to express "masculinity" and "femininity". As i noted previously, in some cultures, masculine and feminine are defined one way; in another culture, they are defined almost the opposite. Sex role stereotypes are notoriously diverse throughout different cultures and eras.

And again, regarding Priesthood: there certainly is evidence from LDS history and doctrine that God has already GIVEN women Priesthood. After all, scripture refers to women as "Queens and Priestesses", women FUNCTION as Priestesses in the Temples and in the Holy Order, and wear the "robes of the Holy Priesthood", in addition to the historical details that have already been cited in this thread.

It seems to be more a matter of recognizing and acknowledging what is already a matter of record -- and humans are notoriously stubborn about doing that, especially when the evidence goes against their basic assumptions and beliefs. *rueful grin*

~Gaia

[Snow]

The problem with feminism comes when we try to force God to make the duties of men and women the same, because they're not. He's designed the genders according to His will and pleasure. I for one would feel rather stupid if I was a woman and I went to God and said, "Have you ever thought that you might have this priesthood thing wrong? Don't you think us women should have it too? I'm not sure you've thought it through because it's unfair to deny us something you give to men."

Come CK,

Not a fair representation of the point you are trying to make. No one would suggest that God got it wrong. The supposition would be that man got God's desire wrong.