Come To The Temple

[sixpacktr]

Beautifully put, a-train...

[rosie321]

QUOTE(Alaskagain @ Sep 22 2007, 07:26 PM)

QUOTE(rosie321 @ Sep 22 2007, 06:13 PM)

Since both men and women have their own specific roles it would be great to have a role model that could understand the needs specific to each and be sensitive to them. There are some things which are easier discussed amongst females

But this isn't a private discussion "amongst females". It is a public message board; hence, the discomfort.

I really was debating whether to say anything or not, as I don't want to cause another eruption here, but when I read that, I got chills up my spine, and they weren't good chills. Our HF and our Savior, his Son, Jesus Christ, PERFECTLY understands ALL of our trials and tribulations here upon the earth. Even if we taught openly about a Heavenly Mother, we still wouldn't pray to her, or ask her because 'Father wouldn't understand'.

Sorry for the chills. What I meant to say is that the knowledge of a Heavenly Mother might actually be a blessing for some and provide greater understandings for some sisters.

I can understand your concern though. Expressing a desire to know more of a Heavenly Mother if there is one does not have to diminish the roles of Heavenly Father or Christ (whom we will ultimately have to be judged by). It would help put the mothering aspect into perspective.

As far as relief society presidencies go. They are here to help us. But just as in the case of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ I would place Heavenly Mother in a totally different realm After all look who she has to put up with

[sixpacktr]

QUOTE(Alaskagain @ Sep 22 2007, 07:26 PM)

QUOTE(rosie321 @ Sep 22 2007, 06:13 PM)

Since both men and women have their own specific roles it would be great to have a role model that could understand the needs specific to each and be sensitive to them. There are some things which are easier discussed amongst females

But this isn't a private discussion "amongst females". It is a public message board; hence, the discomfort.

I really was debating whether to say anything or not, as I don't want to cause another eruption here, but when I read that, I got chills up my spine, and they weren't good chills. Our HF and our Savior, his Son, Jesus Christ, PERFECTLY understands ALL of our trials and tribulations here upon the earth. Even if we taught openly about a Heavenly Mother, we still wouldn't pray to her, or ask her because 'Father wouldn't understand'.

Sorry for the chills. What I meant to say is that the knowledge of a Heavenly Mother might actually be a blessing for some and provide greater understandings for some sisters.

I can understand your concern though. Expressing a desire to know more of a Heavenly Mother if there is one does not have to diminish the roles of Heavenly Father or Christ (whom we will ultimately have to be judged by). It would help put the mothering aspect into perspective.

As far as relief society presidencies go. They are here to help us. But just as in the case of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ I would place Heavenly Mother in a totally different realm After all look who she has to put up with

Fair enough. I can see where that could help.

Again, this is a subject that is completely speculation, kind of like the 'why didn't the blacks have the PH until 1978?' thing. My opinion was purely my opinion, nothing doctrinal or any other types of statements from the GAs. I'm sure when we are able to speak with our HF and ask him the 'whys' it will make perfect sense to us...

[Gaia]

Thanks Gaia! :)

Your posts on this topic were very beautifully and thoughtfully written.

Your posts help to simply explain what goes on in the temple and the value of it.

GAIA:

Hi Rosie -- Thanks so much for those kind words!

[Gaia]

I must confess that I get a little leery with the constant references to being a priestess and queen and Heavenly Mother.

I believe that there is a Heavenly Mother, but I don't make that a 'part' of me. I feel that it is too sacred of a subject to constantly put out in front of people as fact. Our HF felt so strongly about this that he never let us know this, knowing that his name would be taken in vain, and to protect her he didn't let others know. I believe, personally, that this subject is too sacred to just openly flaunt and put out there.

GAIA:

Hello Sixpack--

I understand your concern here. We are discussing very sacred things.

However, i would like to note wth all due respect, that your statement above that "Our HF felt so strongly about this that he never let us know this, knowing that his name would be taken in vain, and to protect her he didn't let others know" is NOT doctrine; it's NEVER taught anywhere as a principle of the Gospel or an explanation; it's merely a POSSIBLE explantion that has been offered by various people, including some general Authorities, as SPECULATION, NOT doctrine.

In fact, we have NO (doctrinal) explanation as to why there is not more written or said about Heavenly Mother -- We do know that Joseph Smith and several of his trusted friends/ associates had at least one shared vision of Her; we do know that early Hebrews and Chrsitians worshipped the divine feminine, but other than that, our knowledge is quite limited and spotty.

And your explanation above has several serious problems -- i think i can demonstrate that it is in fact, CONTRARY to accepted doctrine. I think further discussion of that is not wthin the purview of this thread, so i'll start a new one to adress that, and i do hope you'll check it out, ok?

However, with regard to discussing these very sacred doctrines: There are a number of reasons why i feel it's legitimate here:

1. First, from what i've seen as i've tried to read over the posts and get a sense of who everyone here is, my impression was that most everyone here if not in agreement with the idea, would at the very least respect it.

2. Secondly, someone is asking questions -- very heartfelt, sincere, profound questions which they have already said, have NOT been sufficiently answered elsewhere, and that very silence has begun to be a problem for them. I think they deserve the answers that are available, as long as it's done so with discretion, care and respect. I think it's clear that the answers will be respected and appreciated.

3. I made sure to provide references from scripture and modern church leadership, to back up most of my major points, so there would be no question about their legitimacy.

I know all about 'O My Father' etc., but it isn't doctrine, just personal belief.

GAIA:

Sorry, not sure whether you're saying that the Hymn, "O My Father" is not doctrine, or whether the teaching of there being a Heavenly Mother is nt doctrine -- and i think tht's an important clarification to make.

I think it's pretty clear from everything from scripture (D&C 132) to modern teachings over the pulpit and official church publications, that the fact that we HAVE a Heavenly Mother is doctrine; the hymn was Eliza R Snow Smith's personal interpretation of that doctrine.

Hopefully, this will not be taken as a poke or slam, and that it isn't some PH holder trying to keep a woman down, but rather in the light that I intended...

GAIA:

Ohmy, i hope i haven't given you the (mistaken!) impression that i would be offended or upset with such a respectfully-addressed question/ issue with something i've posted! -- I'm really a very nice, easy-going person, honestly!

Blessings --

~GAia

[sixpacktr]

Hi Gaia,

I'd be interested in what you have to say on this matter, but I was under the impression that a Heavenly Mother existing was not doctrine, but rather speculation, that HF had not revealed any such thing. My own spin on that was my statement, beginning with 'Our HF felt so strongly...'

I'd be interested on the joint vision that JS and others had of a Heavenly Mother.

Again, just so that I am clear, I do believe, but want to be sure that we aren't poking into something that HF felt so strongly about he didn't make it known, that's all.

Finally, my last sentence in my previous post was to ensure that I didn't start a war of some kind, because it wasn't my intent. I'm glad you took it in the spirit it was offered... :)

[Aphrodite]

Forgive me, but I think: 'So, if people could tell me what blessings they feel they have receieved by going to the temple??' is more of a question about blessings already experienced. In other words, if I asked this about Baptism and one said: 'It gets you into heaven.' This answer would be concerning the ultimate blessings of baptism, not the immediate blessings. I think that is what is being asked for here.

Although we are to ultimately sit in Christ's throne with Him (Rev. 3:21), we do NOT do so the day we take out our endowments. Although those in the Celestial Kingdom enjoy the blessings of exaltation, immortality, and eternal lives, we walk out the door of the temple and drive our little family in our honda through the traffic of the telestial world; and junior has a cough and a sniffle and needs food.

One will notice that although the temple (and the gospel in general) will direct our minds to the eternal perspective, we must never forget 'Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.' (Matt 6:34) This principle, that we must focus on the present and rely on the LORD, is not only a popularly noted precept of the Saviour's famous sermon, but vividly and beautifully manifested in the ordinances of the temple. One will notice, that our faithful parents Adam & Eve held to the instructions of the LORD and awaited patiently His further light and knowledge.

I think the question offered by Aphrodite is a brilliant one. What blessings can one realize here and now in this the telestial and temporal world? The temple offers answers to this question. Our parents Adam & Eve faithfully commited themselves to the kingdom of God and were unwilling to allow worldly pursuits to thwart their current righteous objectives. It was through this that they realized the ministration of angels and the comfort and blessing of revelation here in the telestial world. The peace and happiness afforded them thereby are of more value than any worldly treasure as mentioned also by the Saviour in His sermon.

We too, following their example, and indeed that of the LORD, can 'seek first the kingdom of God' and have added to us the temporal and spiritual blessings necessary for our passing through our mortal probation without fear or concern for the things of the world. As we receive these blessings we will advance and continue onward until we ultimately realize the great blessing of the presence of the LORD.

I personally have received much in my temple attendance and I blush that I do not attend more often.

-a-train

Thanks a-train-maybe I should have asked this question earlier as I personally dont see any immediate blessings. I know what we're promised but thats different. Maybe it would help if i could physically focus on or see blessings that I could work towards rather than 'when I die' which to me I cant even fathom anyway.

Aph xx

[Gaia]

Thanks a-train-maybe I should have asked this question earlier as I personally dont see any immediate blessings. I know what we're promised but thats different. Maybe it would help if i could physically focus on or see blessings that I could work towards rather than 'when I die' which to me I cant even fathom anyway.

Aph xx

GAIA:

Hi Again, Aphrodite --

AT the risk of starting up another battle -- and please everyone, that is most certainly NOT my intent --

I will tell you what i was taught as a student at BYU:

You see, I converted as a freshman, and was disowned by my family, so really threw myself into the Gospel and the Church. I took every undergraduate religion class that was offered, and then i started in on the Graduate classes, which were primarily for the Seminary and INstitute teachers to renew their teaching certificates and to prepare for teaching Seminary and INstitute classes for the Church --

I was taught in those graduate classes that the immediate benefit of the Temple is that we get the power and authority to act as "Queens and Priestesses" right here and now -- the power and authority to develop first in our children, and then moving outward, toward developing in others --

-- The POWERS, gifts, blessings, opportunities, and qualities of LIFE -- ETERNAL LIFE -- which Heavenly Father (and MOther) have, together. As we demonstrate that we can be trusted with that challenge, and learn from it, we prepare for and develop the right to do it, as Gods and Goddesses in the next life, with (our own) Spirit Children, throughout eternity.

But the immediate benefits are to receive the power and authority to act as Queens and Priestesses right now, so we are not only physical, biological parents, but we become spiritual parents to our children, (and others) as well.....being able to help develop in them the qualiies of Spritual rebirth, and Eternal Life, that we have (hopefully and presumably) developed within our selves, as we have lived the Gospel. We exercise those powers and authority to minister uno them, both temporally and spiritually -- and to as much as possible, create and minister in our own home, the KINGDOM of God, on their behalf.

And as we are "true and faithful" in that, we eventually make our Calling and Election Sure" to Eternal Life, and ensure that we will continue doing that, forever.

If you'd like references on any of that, just let me know, ok?

I hope that helps --

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Old Tex]

GAIA:

Hello Sixpack--

I understand your concern here. We are discussing very sacred things.

(snip)

In fact, we have NO (doctrinal) explanation as to why there is not more written or said about Heavenly Mother -- We do know that Joseph Smith and several of his trusted friends/ associates had at least one shared vision of Her; we do know that early Hebrews and Chrsitians worshipped the divine feminine, but other than that, our knowledge is quite limited and spotty.

(snip)

This will be my first post here, although I joined the board several months ago. Permit me to pass on an expierence I had many years ago when my oldest son was about five years old. (I am male, by the way.)

I had been talking to him about Heavenly Father and that His son was Jesus Christ. The conversation went on for a while and he went to play. Later he returned and said that he had another question. I said OK. He then asked me to tell him about Heavenly Mother. I was stunned. I asked him where he had heard about a Heavenly Mother.

"Nowhere", he said, rolling his little eyes at me, "I just thought that if I had a Heavenly Father that I must have a Heavenly Mother and I wanted to hear about her."

I don't remember what I answered, but I though of the saying, "Out of the mouths of babes oftime come gems". The wise and educated of the world are trying to figure out the things of God, and it is so simple to a five year old. For such is the Kingdom of God.

[Gaia]

I don't remember what I answered, but I though of the saying, "Out of the mouths of babes oftime come gems". The wise and educated of the world are trying to figure out the things of God, and it is so simple to a five year old. For such is the Kingdom of God.

GAIA:

Hi There, Tex -- and i think you're so right there.

I think People have an internal sense of truth, and unless it's been pretty severely damaged, they seek out and know Truth when they hear it.....

In fact, many of the rest of the world religions have now surpassed LDS in some aspects of understanding and accepting this truth, and incorporating it into their spirituality --

Several years ago (over 10) i attended an international "Women in Religion" conference, at which there were representatives of every possible spiritual persuasion -- all of the "regulars" and "mainstream" systems, as well as the less well known ....

And one of the major topics of interest and consideration was the Divine Feminine - Not just "is there any such thing," which would in itself have been interesting; no, it was, "How can we incorporate Her into our Spiritual lives?"

- And Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Jains, assorted Native Americans, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Pagans and Neo-Pagans, New Agers, and others all sat together to discuss their thoughts and feelings and experiences on the matter! *g* It was marvelous.

~Gaia

[Old Tex]

GAIA:

Hi There, Tex -- and i think you're so right there.

I think People have an internal sense of truth, and unless it's been pretty severely damaged, they seek out and know Truth when they hear it.....

In fact, many of the rest of the world religions have now surpassed LDS in some aspects of understanding and accepting this truth, and incorporating it into their spirituality --

Several years ago (over 10) i attended an international "Women in Religion" conference, at which there were representatives of every possible spiritual persuasion -- all of the "regulars" and "mainstream" systems, as well as the less well known ....

And one of the major topics of interest and consideration was the Divine Feminine - Not just "is there any such thing," which would in itself have been interesting; no, it was, "How can we incorporate Her into our Spiritual lives?"

- And Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Jains, assorted Native Americans, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Pagans and Neo-Pagans, New Agers, and others all sat together to discuss their thoughts and feelings and experiences on the matter! *g* It was marvelous.

~Gaia

I presume by your answer that you are involved with the various feminists movements. While such movements may help women, I feel that if carried to the extreme (which has been done in some cases) may well have the opposite effect.

While others may accept such an idea or teaching for themselves, we, as LDS, need to always heed the leaders of the Church when it comes to teachings on this subject in the Church. I say this without benefit of what has been posted here on this subject in the past.

I do know that those who go too far afield and try to influence others to follow, put themselves and others in a bad position that can (and has) brought much sorrow upon themselves and many around them.

Perhaps this is not the case. I haven't been here long enough to draw any conclusions either way, but your post brought these things to mind from the past and I though I would comment on them.

[onyx]

GAIA:

"Hello Sixpack--

I understand your concern here. We are discussing very sacred things.

(snip)

In fact, we have NO (doctrinal) explanation as to why there is not more written or said about Heavenly Mother -- We do know that Joseph Smith and several of his trusted friends/ associates had at least one shared vision of Her;"

Quote GAIA

Hi Gaia,

I would really like to read that account.

Could you please let me know where I can find it?

Thanks....Onyx

[Gaia]

I would really like to read that account.

Could you please let me know where I can find it?

Thanks....Onyx

GAIA:

Hi Onyx --

Here you go -- I just posted it to the "Heavenly Mother" thread --

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=9972&st=15 -- Post # 24

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Gaia]

I presume by your answer that you are involved with the various feminists movements. While such movements may help women, I feel that if carried to the extreme (which has been done in some cases) may well have the opposite effect.

GAIA:

Hi Tex--

I think ANY time someone goes to an extreme, there can be trouble.

Religion has unfortunately spawned a great deal of dangerous excess and fanaticism. Ever hear of someone who decided they, like Abraham, were commanded by God to sacrifice their children? It happened several years ago in Salt Lake.....

Yknow, originally, the Feminist Movement simply advocated that men and women were of equal worth, and that they deserved equal opportunities. From that unfortunately came a lot of craziness, which troubled even many feminists.

Also, yknow, the LDS church at one time supported and encouraged LDS women to join the Women's MOvement and the national women's organizations, and to fight for women's suffrage......Suffragist leaders were honored guest speakers at the Mormon TAbernace, and Relief Society leaders were honored guest speakers at Suffragist meetings; LDS women were encouraged to join with the national suffragist and women's movement leaders, in fighting for the rights of women.

LDS women were encouraged from the Pulpit to go east and obtain advanced education, training and licenses to practice law, medicine, etc. Polygamy afforded unique opportunities for sister-wives who were so inclined and talented, to do so, knowing that their children would be well mothered by their "Sister-wives" at home.... LDS women were among the very first women doctors, lawyers, etc.

Also, LDS women were among the first to exercise the vote -- it was only an accident of scheduling that prevented Utah women from being the first to exercise the vote -- because of scheduling, Wyoming women did so just before them.

I thank you for your concern regarding my spiritual welfare.

I will say that i strongly agree with the counsel we've been given: to "seek the Spririt" and it's guidance, in all things.

Blessings --

~Gaia