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AnthonyB

The Fall -travellers Question

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The questions???

I thought I would put forth this question. Many times I get the impression that many do not understand the fall of Adam as it relates to man. So I put to the forum the following:

1. What effect did the fall have in heaven?

2. What was the effect of the fall on man?

3. When did the fall take place and who did it effect?

4. Are the effects of the fall only experienced on earth?

5. Was the fall something that needed to happen? Did G-d alter Satan's plan or did Satan alter G-d's plan because of the fall?

6. Beyond overcoming the fall is there any thing else that Jesus did for all mankind that is part of the free gift?

7. Can man be glorified beyond his glory in eden?

8. What is a Cherubum and where in the teachings of Christ (New Testament) will man encounter a cherub and the religious symbols given to the cherubum when man became fallen. Where does man encounter a cherub in their quest to end the fall and reach eternal life (the tree of life)?

My answers??

1) None directly in heaven. However the limited sovereignty that the creator had endowed Adam with passed to Satan. God, as a keeper of the covenants he made, stood by the transaction and allowed the limited sovereignty to pass to Satan. So heaven no longer had a vice regent on earth that was under the authority of God but one that was in rebellion against Him.

2) Numerous but the main ones are:

Spiritual death, a separation from relationship with God.

Physical death, the ending of life on this earth and the separation from our loved ones who remain on earth.

Sickness and Infirmities were felt by man.

Food was much more difficult to produce.

The whole of creation is suffering and man endures the “groanings “of nature, the slow corruption in the whole world as a result of our choice.

3) I’m not discounting a literal Adam and Eve, but I tend to view them as the first sentient homo-sapiens. Whether Genesis is describing a literal separate creation for the two of them or allegorically describing the arrival of sentience among men, I could live with either being true. Adam as the federal head of mankind broke the relationship between God and man. All men since have been born outside this relationship. The relationship with God is no longer natural to us. As soon as we reach an age were we can reestablish that relationship, it is incumbent on us to do so. Failure to do leaves us out of relationship with God in this life and in eternity.

4) The effects of the fall affected the whole of the universe that God placed man in. What effects it had in any universes or dimensions outside are own is not recorded, but I doubt any.

5) The fall was always in God’s plan; it was a necessary evil to allow for redemption and the exultation that was to follow. God did not wish man to fall, but knew he would and had planned for it before he set the situation up. I have always viewed it as like when a parent of nearly adult children allows them freedom in a situation where they know they are likely to do the wrong thing. They allow it to happen so a lesson is learnt and the young adult will be wiser and better for the experience. However even knowing that good will come from it and that they are allowing it to occur, they wish it wouldn’t.

God’s plans are never thwarted it. God allowed Satan to implement Satan’s scheme to cause the fall but Satan was playing into God’s long term plan. Much like I’m sure Satan undoubtingly thought that crucifying Jesus was his successful plan, only to see God turn it all around.

6) Man lived in a garden before the fall, God lived in heaven. Jesus redemption allowed for mankind to live with God, for heaven to be on earth. Man and God will live together.

7) Redeemed humanity will be in a higher state than man pre-fall. We have learnt the difference between good and evil and have chosen good. We will have walked a path to learn to trust God and serve him.

8) Cherubim are created beings, since the bible is principally about the story of God and man we knew very little about them.

As for access to the “tree of life”, as recorded in Revelations, those overcome and that wash their robes clean, will have the right to the tree of

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\2) Numerous but the main ones are:

Spiritual death, a separation from relationship with God.

Physical death, the ending of life on this earth and the separation from our loved ones who remain on earth.

Sickness and Infirmities were felt by man.

Food was much more difficult to produce.

The whole of creation is suffering and man endures the “groanings “of nature, the slow corruption in the whole world as a result of our choice.

8) Cherubim are created beings, since the bible is principally about the story of God and man we knew very little about them.

As for access to the “tree of life”, as recorded in Revelations, those overcome and that wash their robes clean, will have the right to the tree of

I do not have time to address all your answers.

In #2 you referenced the fall caused a separation of man concerning "relationship". Please define relationship.

In #8 you speak of Cherubium as created beings - I will add that "creator" is also a created being - else creation would be co-eternal with the creator. Since your are quite confused let me ask - who is the "keeper" of the way to the tree of Life that is in Eden? You referenced (incorrectly saying Revelations but the name of the Book is singular Revelation) when is scripture was Jesus given charge concerning the way from the Cherubium that was given charge in Genesis?

Good luck

The Traveler

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I do not have time to address all your answers.

In #2 you referenced the fall caused a separation of man concerning "relationship". Please define relationship.

In #8 you speak of Cherubium as created beings - I will add that "creator" is also a created being - else creation would be co-eternal with the creator. Since your are quite confused let me ask - who is the "keeper" of the way to the tree of Life that is in Eden? You referenced (incorrectly saying Revelations but the name of the Book is singular Revelation) when is scripture was Jesus given charge concerning the way from the Cherubium that was given charge in Genesis?

Good luck

The Traveler

Traveler,

Thanks for the reply, I was was putting my thoughts up as a comparision, my ideas coming from a different world view are as equally odd as I find many of yours.

By relationship, I mean personal relationship. The fall caused estrangement between God and man. I don't mean we ceased being children of God but that we required reconcilling to God through Jesus Christ.

As an aside I should at this point thank you for your correcting me on using a plural for "Revelation". The following paragraph is an act of defensive childish pedantry, so feel free to ignore it if you wish or at least take it humourously.

I could however pedantically comment on your use of the indefinite article with a plural "A Cherubum(sic)", instead of "a cherub". Or that the name of the book is "Apocalypse of John". That "Revelation" is an english translation word for apocalypse. However english being the egalitarian language it is and having no national academy like french to pontificate on correct usage, which ensures that common usage defines acceptability. (Else we would all still be using "thou" et al.) Since a sizeable number of people use "revelations" it could well be argued to be an accepted usage.

I don't believe the tree of life is still in Eden, it was IMHO washed away at the flood. I believe that their will be a new heaven and a new earth and the tree of life will be in the city where God resides in the new earth. So the original Cherub is not still protecting a tree that is no longer there.

As for the creator/creation questions, that is a marked difference between LDS and "trad" Christians. It would take quite a long a post to discuss that all by itself. My personal view is that God exist in deminsions that aren't currently used in this universe. As an aside, did you know that the latest "M theory" subset of string theory acting predicts that there are 11 dimensions, of which only four are expanded in this universe (three spatial and one time) leaving 7 unused dimensions. (A neat coincidence given the bible always used 4 for earth and 7 for heaven.)

I would be interested where you believe Jesus was given charge of the way to the tree of life in the NT?

God bless.

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Sorry I did not answer for a while. Some thoughts---. If you read Job Chapter 1 verse 6 through 12 (which is a verse of Hebrew poetry). It would appear that Satan was in Heaven addressing the Father – This is not likely since Satan was excommunicated from the presents of the Father. Where then did this take place? Could it be that heaven that was separated from the Father at the time of the fall in which Jesus resided as king and the sons of man presented themselves (reported) to Jesus that in turn went to another place to address the Father?

As to the “Tree of Life” in Eden – Alma 32 has some interesting things to say about a seed that is planted in the hearts of men that if cared for will grow – produce fruit – and is the “tree of life” – See Alma 32:40.

The Traveler

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