OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 "Hope of Deliverance..." - who doesn't remember this song from 1993...? But what is the difference between deliverance and redemption? And what means salvation? Only three keywords of modern Christianity. What is their exact meaning in context of the Mormon doctrine? Quote
Guest Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 22 minutes ago, OnePassenger said: "Hope of Deliverance..." - who doesn't remember this song from 1993...? But what is the difference between deliverance and redemption? And what means salvation? Only three keywords of modern Christianity. What is their exact meaning in context of the Mormon doctrine? They all mean pretty much the same thing. There are, however, nuances and connotations that make the redundant usage a little more poetic. The slight differences may be perceived as degrees. Redeeming can that one is rescued from already being in hell. Deliverance can mean that one is rescued from the process of being taken to hell. Salvation can mean that one is prevented from even being in the process of going to hell. But in 99.9% of scriptural usage, they are synonymous. Quote
OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Posted September 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Carborendum said: They all mean pretty much the same thing. There are, however, nuances and connotations that make the redundant usage a little more poetic. The slight differences may be perceived as degrees. Redeeming can that one is rescued from already being in hell. Deliverance can mean that one is rescued from the process of being taken to hell. Salvation can mean that one is prevented from even being in the process of going to hell. But in 99.9% of scriptural usage, they are synonymous. Thanks for this classification. But in Mormon theology there are three degrees of glory, which can be assumed as the ultimate and eternal dwelling place after the resurrection from the spirit world, and there is no hell. So, if there is no hell (let's ignore the outer darkness or meeting your mother-in-law in the Celestial kingdom), in which context would you see the three "keywords" then? No hell means no rescuing from it, no deliverance from being taken to it, and no salvation for someone who fell asleep in a fast bus to hell just before the last stop... Quote
Guest Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 Just now, OnePassenger said: Thanks for this classification. But in Mormon theology there are three degrees of glory, which can be assumed as the ultimate and eternal dwelling place after the resurrection from the spirit world, and there is no hell. So, if there is no hell (let's ignore the outer darkness or meeting your mother-in-law in the Celestial kingdom), in which context would you see the three "keywords" then? No hell means no rescuing from it, no deliverance from being taken to it, and no salvation for someone who fell asleep in a fast bus to hell just before the last stop... Where did you get the idea there was no hell? That is not part of LDS theology. I believe you may have misunderstood the doctrine of the three degrees of glory. Why would you ignore outer darkness? Are you not familiar with our doctrine of the Atonement and what it actually does? Just so we're clear. What is your understanding of what Christ's Atonement was about? Quote
OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Carborendum said: Where did you get the idea there was no hell? That is not part of LDS theology. I believe you may have misunderstood the doctrine of the three degrees of glory. Why would you ignore outer darkness? Are you not familiar with our doctrine of the Atonement and what it actually does? Just so we're clear. What is your understanding of what Christ's Atonement was about? I would ignore outer darkness because if the three degrees of glory are ultimate and eternal places after the resurrection, the outer darkness is certainly the place where absolutely no redeeming is possible, spoken in the context of "hell" and the three given keywords. Christ's Atonement was not to save us from hell, but to prepare us to meet or stand before God without our burden of guilt, taken away from us by return and Christ's Atonement. Edited September 23, 2018 by OnePassenger Quote
Guest Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 Just now, OnePassenger said: I would ignore outer darkness because if the three degrees of glory are ultimate and eternal places after the resurrection, then then the outer darkness is certainly the place where absolutely no redeeming is possible, spoken in the context of "hell" and the three given keywords. Christ's Atonement was not to save us from hell, but to prepare us to meet or stand before God without our burden of guilt, taken away from us by return and Christ's Atonement. Uhmmm... No. Before I even begin to make an effort to re-educate you, where did you get that this was valid Mormon doctrine? Quote
OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Carborendum said: Uhmmm... No. Before I even begin to make an effort to re-educate you, where did you get that this was valid Mormon doctrine? From the internet, from "The Plan of Salvation", German edition, "Der Erlösungsplan", 2007 by Intellectual Reserve Inc., Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where no hell is mentioned (pages 10 - 15, Christ's atonement and the resurrection and last judgement).The Mormon pendant of hell would be the Telestial kingdom, out of the presence of God. The outer darkness, however, would be an absolute place of damnation. Sorry if I seem to be wrong, but it's not always so easy for me to express my thoughts in English. Therefore, the Mormon pendant of hell is not a place of torture that is so described by a fallen church (in the Middle Ages and even today) to spread fear and terror. Mormon teaching, on the other hand, reveals that there are places or stadiums far from God, up to the spiritual death, or close to him, up to excitation. It's, more or less, in our hand, respectively how we behave. Edited September 23, 2018 by OnePassenger Quote
Guest Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, OnePassenger said: From the internet, from "The Plan of Salvation", German edition, "Der Erlösungsplan", 2007 by Intellectual Reserve Inc., Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where no hell is mentioned (pages 10 - 15, Christ's atonement and the resurrection and last judgement). I certainly hope you would not think that everything would be completely explicitly and clearly stated about every doctrine 100% in a fairly small (effectively 6 page) pamphlet with lots of blank pace. Just because it doesn't mention hell, doesn't mean "there is no hell". It's just a pamphlet. It never says "Jesus did not save us from hell". It is a BASIC INTRODUCTION to the plan of salvation. You can't expect it to itemize every detail. While it gives a pretty good overall picture, it is not to be used as the basis of in depth theological discussion. It simply doesn't have the level of detail for that. That would be like using the Periodic Table to discuss enthalpy or nuclear degredation. It simply doesn't mention those things. Yet they are a very important part of physics and chemistry. So, first, let me give you a slightly different perspective on the pamphlet itself. Then we'll go on to hell (not literally). Here are some other quotes (English version): Quote The plan of salvation is... centered on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Quote the Atonement of Jesus Christ... enables God's children to overcome the effects of the Fall and have joy in this life and in eternity. Quote Because your Heavenly Father loves you, He send His son, Jesus Christ, to pay for your sins. This payment is part of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Quote The Atonement of Jesus Christ makes Salvation possible. Quote The Atonement is the event that enables us to be reconciled to God. To atone is to suffer the penalty for sin, thereby removing the effects of sin from repentant sinners... the Atonement also provides us with a way to be forgiven of our sins and to live forever with God. Quote We overcome physical death through resurrection, which was made possible by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Quote Our Heavenly Father's plan enables us to become like Him. This plan is centered on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Quote Salvation: Deliverance from sin and death. Salvation is made possible by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Quote We are saved from spiritual death through the Atonement. The focus of the pamphlet was not about hell. It was about the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The above quotes tell us about what the Atonement does. What are we delivered from? Sin and death. What are we saved from? Spiritual death. The Atonement does the following: Enables us to be reconciled to God. Where would we go if we were not reconciled to God? Hell. Overcome physical death. What would happen if we were not resurrected? We'd be disembodied spirits for all eternity. Jesus can remove the effects of sin. What are the effects of sin? One of them... we'll go to hell. All of us. Provides us a way to be forgiven for our sins. What would happen if we were not forgiven? We'd go to hell. All of us. Makes salvation possible. Salvation from what? Sin and Death. What happens if we're not saved from sin? We do to hell. We're saved from "spiritual death". What is "spiritual death". This means a complete and total separation from the glory of God. In case you didn't get it, that's hell. NOW, if we can move on. We do believe there is such a "thing" or "place" as hell. But we believe that The Atonement of Christ gives us a path out of it. Thus, we are saved, redeemed, delivered from hell. And depending on our faithfulness, we go instead to one of the three kingdoms that you read about. And even if your mother-in-law was in the Celestial Kingdom, she's behave herself there. BTW, I really like my MIL. But that's because she's cool. Edited September 23, 2018 by Guest Quote
OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Posted September 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, Carborendum said: (...) NOW, if we can move on. We do believe there is such a "thing" or "place" as hell. But we believe that The Atonement of Christ gives us a path out of it. Thus, we are saved, redeemed, delivered from hell. And depending on our faithfulness, we go instead to one of the three kingdoms that you read about. And even if your mother-in-law was in the Celestial Kingdom, she's behave herself there. BTW, I really like my MIL. But that's because she's cool. Okay, I will read your answer a few times more. Give me time. Let's move on the next days. PS... Lucky one you are concerning your MIL. Quote
CV75 Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 5 hours ago, OnePassenger said: "Hope of Deliverance..." - who doesn't remember this song from 1993...? But what is the difference between deliverance and redemption? And what means salvation? Only three keywords of modern Christianity. What is their exact meaning in context of the Mormon doctrine? Just because hell has an end in one sense (e.g. See Acts 2: 25-31) does not mean it it does not exist in another: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/hell See also: https://www.lds.org/topics/hell?lang=eng and https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/hell?lang=eng Deliverance is often used to describe Divine help with escape or rescue from spiritual or temporal bondage in mortality: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-and-doctrine-of-the-book-of-mormon-teacher-manual/lesson-14-gods-power-of-deliverance?lang=eng Redemption is deliverance by the payment of the price of sin: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/redeem-redeemed-redemption?lang=eng Salvation has various meanings, including the covenant relationship with God; unconditional resurrection (also known as unconditional salvation from the second or spiritual death); conditional return to God through grace; spiritual rebirth (born again); enlightenment; eternal life or exaltation. https://www.lds.org/topics/salvation?lang=eng Quote
OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, CV75 said: Just because hell has an end in one sense (e.g. See Acts 2: 25-31) does not mean it it does not exist in another: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/hell See also: https://www.lds.org/topics/hell?lang=eng and https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/hell?lang=eng Deliverance is often used to describe Divine help with escape or rescue from spiritual or temporal bondage in mortality: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-and-doctrine-of-the-book-of-mormon-teacher-manual/lesson-14-gods-power-of-deliverance?lang=eng Redemption is deliverance by the payment of the price of sin: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/redeem-redeemed-redemption?lang=eng Salvation has various meanings, including the covenant relationship with God; unconditional resurrection (also known as unconditional salvation from the second or spiritual death); conditional return to God through grace; spiritual rebirth (born again); enlightenment; eternal life or exaltation. https://www.lds.org/topics/salvation?lang=eng Thanks for your post. Edited September 24, 2018 by OnePassenger Quote
CV75 Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, OnePassenger said: Thanks for your post. But do you all want my mind to explode? I'm not a Marsian with a pumpkin head. Give me time. It's late evening here in Hamburg, the birds don't sing any more (except of some nervous magpies, and there is a tree full of them in front of my window, and only God knows what they are communicating about, but it's anything but singing and praising the Lord). Again, thanks for your good intention, but give me a rest. The Marsian. 🤠 (in disguise of a cowboy just to hide what's under the hat) Better yet, make an appointment with out missionaries! Edited September 23, 2018 by CV75 Quote
OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, CV75 said: Better yet, make an appointment with out missionaries! Let's see. Edited September 24, 2018 by OnePassenger Quote
zil Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 1 hour ago, OnePassenger said: I've met so many in the past, from 2007, when the mission was still here in Hamburg. Now it's in dirty Berlin. They came from Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Texas, all the bests in mind and faith, and I would lay my hand into fire for each of them. I know about Mormon faith, and all the young men. I was having the honor they came here to my house and brought the flame of the Spirit. I don't need the missionaries any more - they've done a good job. It's me. The message has been understood , the flesh can't give up its addiction. Nothing can help. But as one is weak in flesh he can be strong in faith. One of the missionaries once told me, that I have more faith in me than I guess. Like the burning star. A burning star. Quote Some might say, “I don’t think I could live up to your standards.” All the more reason to come! The Church is designed to nourish the imperfect, the struggling, and the exhausted. It is filled with people who desire with all their heart to keep the commandments, even if they haven’t mastered them yet. -- "Come, Join with Us" by President Uchtdorf, October 2013 General Conference Quote
OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, zil said: Are you with the sword or the pencil? Edited September 24, 2018 by OnePassenger Quote
zil Posted September 23, 2018 Report Posted September 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, OnePassenger said: Are you with the sword or the pencil? I don't fear both. Only a good Colt Combat or any other good American handgun. Like Smith & Wesson. But I'd like to own a Colt pistol, or a revolver. My avatar is a fountain pen holding a sword. My guns are made by Beretta and Kahr. Quote
OnePassenger Posted September 23, 2018 Author Report Posted September 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, zil said: My avatar is a fountain pen holding a sword. My guns are made by Beretta and Kahr. Beretta and Kahr? Wish we were married. But God has decided against us. Utah, so far in my dreams... zil 1 Quote
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