7 Year Old Asks "can We Fake It?"

[prisonchaplain]

I don't know why others have died for their beliefs. I honestly don't know why anyone would.

I disagree that it takes any kind of faith at all to NOT belief in god.

Do YOU have a "certain kind of faith" that there isn't an invisible purple monster living in my garage? Would you disbelieve in it even if I was willing to die for it? Even if I had a sincere "faith" and belief in it? Or would you believe I was mentally ill or hallucinating?

See, folks who DO believe in god just can't seem to grasp that others don't.

However, if you do not believe in OTHER religions god(s) such as Vishnu, Thor, etc. then you would be atheistic about those gods. Or do you believe in them ALL?

If it helps, I do get it. I'm not many religions, because I do not believe their ultimate faith claims. However, my reason for being "NOT" is that I am a Christian. I accept the truth claims of this faith--that Jesus is the only way to reconciliation with the one true and living creator, God. So, how I arrive at non-Buddhism (as an example) is that I am Christian.

It takes no faith to be a non-theist, and to find religion unimportant. However, to take the next step--to become an avowed atheist--to say, "There is no god,"--that, imho, is indeed a faith statement. It can be based largely in science, humanities, experience, reasoning, etc. However, ultimately, there is a "leap of faith," that concludes, without 100% empirical evidence, that there is no god. And yes, by ascribing to atheism, you, by default deny all deity-based religions.

Of course, to merely be of the opinion that there is no god...that is a viewpoint that might require little spiritual struggle at all, for many. I hope I'm communicating the nuance effectively.

BTW: There was a season of history when even atheists died for their faith--in the forming years of Communism. It was wrapped up in political and economic revolution, and sometimes personality cults--but, yes, even the rationalists will die for fervent ideology.

[Elphaba]

Hi PC,

I have not read this entire thread, so I apologize in advance if I raise a question that has already been answered. If I do so, please just say so and don’t bother to answer me. If, however, it has not, would you mind answering my question here?

If it helps, I do get it. I'm not many religions, because I do not believe their ultimate faith claims. However, my reason for being "NOT" is that I am a Christian. I accept the truth claims of this faith--that Jesus is the only way to reconciliation with the one true and living creator, God. So, how I arrive at non-Buddhism (as an example) is that I am Christian.

How did you arrive at Christianity? Were you raised Christian? If so, did you ever seriously practice any other religion(s), including their religious rituals to see if they provided any spiritual confirmations? If not, then how can you say Christianity is the only religion whose truth claims are real? Unless you gave Buddhism a fair shot, which would include a sincere commitment of time and your suspension of belief in Christianity, then you cannot know for sure that your choice of religion is the correct choice, at least not in my opinion.

It takes no faith to be a non-theist, and to find religion unimportant.

I agree with this.

However, to take the next step--to become an avowed atheist--to say, "There is no god,"--that, imho, is indeed a faith statement It can be based largely in science, humanities, experience, reasoning, etc.

There is no difference between being a non-theist and an atheist, so implying there is doesn't make sense. When you go on to describe how non-theism is fairly benign, but that atheism relies on the same "faith" that religions do, IMO, you're creating a logical fallacy. The consequences of each are the same, or I should say the lack of consequences.

However, ultimately, there is a "leap of faith," that concludes, without 100% empirical evidence, that there is no god.

PC, have you ever gone through a period where you did not believe in a god. I don’t mean a period of doubt. I mean a serious period where the concept of “God” being real was as absurd to you as the concept of Santa Claus being real is.

I really do not mean to offend you by comparing your belief in God to the silliness of believing in Santa Claus. But to me, an atheist, it is the same thing. It takes no faith for me not to believe in God because it is as silly as me believing in Santa Claus. I don’t know how else to explain it without offending anyone. I watch people talk about their belief in various Christian stories, and it just all seems nonsensical to me. It takes no faith whatsoever for me not to believe in a god.

And yes, by ascribing to atheism, you, by default deny all deity-based religions.

As do you, except for one. I assume you realize there are some fifty or so religions practiced on this planet today. This alludes to my question above. Have you ever given another religion a true shot? Have you ever actually lived that religion? Have you ever suspended your belief in Christianity, opened your heart to one of these other religions, whose adherents believe in it as much as you do your Christianity? Have you ever made any sacrifices for this religion?

Until you have done so, then how do you really know you've made the right choice of religions available in the world today? The fact is, except for Christianity, you are also an atheist.

Of course, to merely be of the opinion that there is no god...that is a viewpoint that might require little spiritual struggle at all, for many. I hope I'm communicating the nuance effectively.

Yes, you are. You always do. I also hope I am doing the same thing.

BTW: There was a season of history when even atheists died for their faith--in the forming years of Communism. It was wrapped up in political and economic revolution, and sometimes personality cults--but, yes, even the rationalists will die for fervent ideology.

I never thought about it this way before. It is very interesting.

I can’t see me dying for my “atheism,” as it is a non-belief. But I guess it would depend on the circumstances. If I were tortured because of it, I admit I would renounce it. What does it matter what I say to end excruciating pain. I know what I feel and believe, and no one can beat those truths out of my core.

Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

How did you arrive at Christianity? Were you raised Christian? If so, did you ever seriously practice any other religion(s), including their religious rituals to see if they provided any spiritual confirmations? If not, then how can you say Christianity is the only religion whose truth claims are real? Unless you gave Buddhism a fair shot, which would include a sincere commitment of time and your suspension of belief in Christianity, then you cannot know for sure that your choice of religion is the correct choice, at least not in my opinion.

If you've read today's lottery ticket # winner, and I tell you that by faith, my #s are the winning ones, you can look and see that I am wrong. You've never embraced faith in my #s. You simply know which ones are right, and that mine don't match. Likewise, I am either the most arrogant religionist, or I am right. I believe that, spiritually speaking, I have the right numbers. So, there is not need for me to look at other #s.

There is no difference between being a non-theist and an atheist, so implying there is doesn't make sense. When you go on to describe how non-theism is fairly benign, but that atheism relies on the same "faith" that religions do, IMO, you're creating a logical fallacy. The consequences of each are the same, or I should say the lack of consequences.

You seem to misperceive my statement. Nontheism simply means one will not be bothered with religion. It is unimportant. I do not hold up nontheism as more benign than atheism. Rather, my argument is that the atheist has embraced a position that cannot be empirically proven. There is no god. To be a true-believing atheist requires "a leap of faith." Yes, there can be some indicators. But, like faith in God, there is a certain element of, "I'm throwing my lot with this worldview."

PC, have you ever gone through a period where you did not believe in a god. I don’t mean a period of doubt. I mean a serious period where the concept of “God” being real was as absurd to you as the concept of Santa Claus being real is.

I really do not mean to offend you by comparing your belief in God to the silliness of believing in Santa Claus. But to me, an atheist, it is the same thing. It takes no faith for me not to believe in God because it is as silly as me believing in Santa Claus. I don’t know how else to explain it without offending anyone. I watch people talk about their belief in various Christian stories, and it just all seems nonsensical to me. It takes no faith whatsoever for me not to believe in a god.

Why are most Christians not LDS? Indeed, many cannot be bothered with 19th century claimants to a prophetic mantle. Others have examined the evidence. One cannot prove or disapprove Joseph Smith's claims with 100% certainty. But, 13 million have concluded in the affirmative, and many others have concluded to the contrary. Both require a certain measure of faith.

On the other hand, to not believe in supernatural claims does indeed require much less faith than embracing them. I'd grant you that.

Concerning the rest--again, it's easy to deny the faith claims of other religions, if I believe I already have the truth. Likewise the atheist. You believe you have the truth--that there is no god. You do not have to examine Buddha's teachings, nor those of Ron L. Hubbard--because you've found what you believe is the ultimate truth.

[Elphaba]

If you've read today's lottery ticket # winner, and I tell you that by faith, my #s are the winning ones, you can look and see that I am wrong. You've never embraced faith in my #s. You simply know which ones are right, and that mine don't match. Likewise, I am either the most arrogant religionist, or I am right. I believe that, spiritually speaking, I have the right numbers. So, there is not need for me to look at other #s.

Okay PC, I’m confused. If I understand you, you’re saying you believe in the wrong religion because of your faith. What am I missing here?

You seem to misperceive my statement. Nontheism simply means one will not be bothered with religion.

I understand what you mean now.

It is unimportant. I do not hold up nontheism as more benign than atheism. Rather, my argument is that the atheist has embraced a position that cannot be empirically proven. There is no god. To be a true-believing atheist requires "a leap of faith." Yes, there can be some indicators. But, like faith in God, there is a certain element of, "I'm throwing my lot with this worldview."

Okay, I have a question for you. Did you one day “decide” there was a God? Did you one day decide to believe in a God? In other words, did you literally make a decision?

Because I didn’t. That’s not at all how it was for me. That’s why I keep returning to the Santa Claus analogy, because I can’t seem to think of a better one and I truly am sorry if it offends anyone.

One day I “realized” there wasn’t a Santa Claus. I didn’t “decide” there wasn’t one. I “realized” there wasn’t one.

And that’s exactly how it happened for me and my belief in God. Without going into personal details, I spent years trying to believe in and search for him, and one day I had an epiphany, and realized I wasn‘t getting any response because he didn‘t exist. It wasn’t a decision. It was a realization.

PC, unless you have experienced true atheism, I don‘t think you can definitively say whether or not it takes faith for an atheist to not believe in a god.

I can use you as an example. I do not understand how you, an obviously intelligent thinker, can believe in the Christian god. I’ll be blunt. It makes absolutely no sense to me. However, I do believe you that you do, and that your belief is profound.

I hope this doesn’t freak you out, but because I don’t understand it, I read the majority of your posts to get a glimpse of what it is like to be you and to believe in God the way you do. In other words, I’m your stalker.

The thing is, I honestly want to understand how you experience this, because I have absolutely no idea how the things you talk about “feel.” I never have.

We’ve discussed this before, so I am sorry to repeat myself. But I believe you do experience what you say you do. I just cannot feel any connection to your words.

So when you say I have chosen to not believe in a god, and that I have faith there is no god, this is not true. I have no idea what it feels like to believe in a god. I thought I did when I was younger, but I really was just going through the motions, mimicking everyone else.

So it really took no faith to give up on my search. I was going through a horrific time in my life, and begging just for an acknowledgement He was there. That’s all. When all I heard was silence, I assumed I had asked for too much in the past, or was asking for the wrong thing, or ____________ (fill in the blank). Obviously I was doing something wrong.

Then I had my epiphany. I won’t explain the details. But when the realization hit me, it was huge, and one of the most healing experiences of my life.

That was above 7 years ago. Nothing has ever happened that made me think I was wrong, or to regret my realization; rather, it has given me some sanity than I ever had before with regards to “God.”

However, I acknowledge the profound affect the belief in God has on people, including practically every member of my family. So while a belief in God does not work for me, I would feel great sorrow if someone lost their belief in God because of me. Therefore I am very careful around my family not to bring up anything that may cause contention.

I’m not always perfect about this. I sometimes resent the fact that I know more about the Church’s history than any of them combined; yet they give me no respect whatsoever when it comes to the Church.

They also automatically assume I am an “anti-Mormon” because I chose to have my name removed from its files. Of course when you do that you want to drink, do drugs, and sit in hot tubes with naked men. I only did a few of those things.

More importantly, none of those things were the reason I left. And of course, none of my family has ever once thought to ask me why I really left. They just assume they know.

Oh my, another Elphaba tangent.

Why are most Christians not LDS? Indeed, many cannot be bothered with 19th century claimants to a prophetic mantle. Others have examined the evidence. One cannot prove or disapprove Joseph Smith's claims with 100% certainty. But, 13 million have concluded in the affirmative, and many others have concluded to the contrary. Both require a certain measure of faith.

You’re preaching to the choir. I think, however, it goes beyond Joseph and applies to all religions.

Concerning the rest--again, it's easy to deny the faith claims of other religions, if I believe I already have the truth. Likewise the atheist. You believe you have the truth--that there is no god.

I want to clarify here that I do not believe I have the truth.

I believe I have some truth, but not THE truth. I do believe THE truth, which I would define as the mechanics of the entire universe, is discernable. Whether we humans are able to discover and comprehend these mechanics I have no idea. I would like to think we could, and am hopeful. Of course, I don’t expect it to happen in my lifetime. But I do believe it is possible, and I also believe it will be phenomenal.

You do not have to examine Buddha's teachings, nor those of Ron L. Hubbard--because you've found what you believe is the ultimate truth.

Now that is an interesting point. Just as I claim you are an atheist in these areas, you are correct. I have never studied any of them myself, nor do I have an inclination to.

It is not because I believe I have found the “ultimate truth.“ But I admit I do not believe either religions’ claims about their respective gods.

However, as I am the one who brought up the 50 or so world’s religions, I am also guilty of not having studied or given them the time to discover their truth claims.

Therefore I am an atheist to gods and religions I know nothing about as much as I accuse you of being.

Not very nice of me, is it? For that, I apologize.

Thank you for the interesting discussion!

Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

If I understand you, you’re saying you believe in the wrong religion because of your faith. What am I missing here?

What I am saying is that if you encounter the one true and living God, and He guides you in the way he wants to be worshipped, then you will not feel the need to explore other avenues of spirituality.

Okay, I have a question for you. Did you one day “decide” there was a God? Did you one day decide to believe in a God? In other words, did you literally make a decision?

Yes. I was in my 2nd or third week of Sunday School. One of the teachers told us that God wanted to forgive our sins because Jesus loved us and had died in our place. If we accepted him into our hearts, God would forgive us. Also, since Jesus had died, and yet was risen, He would be with us forever, and help us to be better people. I sensed that the message was true, raised my hand, said the prayer, and never turned back.

One day I “realized” there wasn’t a Santa Claus. I didn’t “decide” there wasn’t one. I “realized” there wasn’t one.

And that’s exactly how it happened for me and my belief in God. Without going into personal details, I spent years trying to believe in and search for him, and one day I had an epiphany, and realized I wasn‘t getting any response because he didn‘t exist. It wasn’t a decision. It was a realization.

Unlike the Santa Clause example, though, we know he does not exist in the manner of folklore. Your ephiphany, like mine, involved a sense, and you embraced it. It was a move of faith, as much as mine was.

I hope this doesn’t freak you out, but because I don’t understand it, I read the majority of your posts to get a glimpse of what it is like to be you and to believe in God the way you do. In other words, I’m your stalker.

The thing is, I honestly want to understand how you experience this, because I have absolutely no idea how the things you talk about “feel.” I never have.

We’ve discussed this before, so I am sorry to repeat myself. But I believe you do experience what you say you do. I just cannot feel any connection to your words.

So when you say I have chosen to not believe in a god, and that I have faith there is no god, this is not true. I have no idea what it feels like to believe in a god. I thought I did when I was younger, but I really was just going through the motions, mimicking everyone else.

You do not see your "ephiphany" as being grounded in faith. You even describe your decision to stop searching in religious terms. I don't understand it, but I can picture it.

"All these people claiming to have sensed god. But I never have. I've tried, I"ve prayed, I've read, I've fasted, I've given money, I've given time and labor, I've hungered in my heart, and nothing...It doesn' make sense. Unless...maybe god isn't out there. What if he just doesn't exist. What if religion is like the Emporer with no clothes? That's got to be it. It makes so much sense. We're just here. We're on our own. I can live with that, and I can do my best with that, and not be hindered by what is now obviously superstition!"

[a-train]

Perhaps it is wise to listen to the voice in your head when He is always right. And how much help can a therapist be if he can't hear that voice? Call me crazy, but I still rate direct communication as the number one reason to have faith in God.

'Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.' (Rev 3:20)

-a-train

[Guest bizabra]

Elphaba,

I was very interested to read your comments. Your experiences and conclusions are remarkably similar to my own, I was esp. interested and could relate to your comments about "family".

Thanks for expressing in such clear terms how it feels to have a non belief in god(s). I appreciate your sharing.

:) Biz