Hebrews 9

rosie321 · December 3, 2007

I was reading Hebrews Chapters 9 & 10 in particular and some things jumped out at me in ways that it hadn't before so I wanted to get others thoughts. I saw these chapters in a different light and am trying to make sense of it. There was another post or posts somewhere talking about a similar topic but don't know where. These chapters stirred up some thoughts from non member days.

Hebrews 9:8-11

10:10-12

10:14-16

10:16-20

A great deal of emphasis is placed on the dead ordinances and that the one testament had to be abolished to make room for the other. That there was a once and for all sacrifice.

These chapters take the emphasis off of the physical outward temple and seems to put the emphasis on the personal temples of our hearts. The law would be in our hearts. It seemed from reading this that we wouldn't need the physical temple anymore as many Christians would believe. This belief would also be supported by the rending of the temple veil when Christ died.

I couldn't help but think. Putting aside knowledge from other LDS works how would you interpret the above chapters? Do we still need a physical temple? Would your view be be different without the Latterday writings?

The chapters also mention Christ's one time sacrifice. Whereas the priests had to keep returning under the first testament under Christ there was that one time sacrifice. So if how does that fit in with LDS doctrines of falling away? Or continually going back. These chapters almost support those who place their emphasis on grace and not works.

Hebrews 10:19-21 love this- the veil = Christ flesh

Christ is our mediator and savior. The LDS church is named after Him.

But do LDS lose Christ in everyday LDS duties? Do enough LDS really know and understand what Christ did for them?

How do we keep from losing sight of such important things within the routines, ordinances or LDS expectations? Do we as members spend enough time contemplating what Christ has done for us, trying to mold our lives, or do we get caught up in all the to do lists? For the leaders these questions must be most difficult.

CrimsonKairos · December 3, 2007

Putting aside knowledge from other LDS works how would you interpret the above chapters? Do we still need a physical temple? Would your view be be different without the Latterday writings?

I'd say a physical temple would be useful even after Christ's death. However, the special ordinances that would be performed in a temple would no longer include animal sacrifice and burnt offerings, etc. since that was done away with by Christ's death on the cross.

So what new ordinances would Christ have introduced into temple worship in place of the old system? Sounds like a question for a prophet of God. So happens we have one today.

Whereas the priests had to keep returning under the first testament under Christ there was that one time sacrifice. So if how does that fit in with LDS doctrines of falling away? Or continually going back.

What do you mean by the LDS doctrine of "falling away?" You mean the apostasy? Or personal sins? I'm confused.

Hebrews 10:19-21 love this- the veil = Christ flesh

Agreed. That's one of my favorite parts as well.

How do we keep from losing sight of such important things within the routines, ordinances or LDS expectations?

I for one appreciate the Lord's Supper on Sunday. It is a (hopefully) quiet time to remember Christ's sacrifice on the cross, and re-synchronize our lives and hearts with God's will for us.

Do we as members spend enough time contemplating what Christ has done for us, trying to mold our lives, or do we get caught up in all the to do lists?

I personally am guilty of sometimes losing focus, but I think that's a function of being mortal with all sorts of spiritual and temporal responsibilities to attend to. Sometimes we just get busy.

At the end of the day, though, I know who has saved me from death and hell, what he expects me to do to as a covenant member of his Church, and how blessed I am to know these things. :)

rosie321 · December 4, 2007

I'd say a physical temple would be useful even after Christ's death. However, the special ordinances that would be performed in a temple would no longer include animal sacrifice and burnt offerings, etc. since that was done away with by Christ's death on the cross. Reading the passage this time, I felt there was more to it then that. I don't know if its just my pre church instinct or if there is more but it came across to me that there was something more to it
.
So what new ordinances would Christ have introduced into temple worship in place of the old system? Sounds like a question for a prophet of God. So happens we have one today.
In the non-LDS world there would be no need for a physical temple persay. Your body would now be the temple. These chapters emphasized the shift from the outward physical that was done away with to the new law being written on peoples hearts and christ making a one time sacrifice. We don't have to keep going back to the physical temple or have one prophet. The average lay person could prophesy because they had the spirit in their life or personal temple.
Whereas the priests had to keep returning under the first testament under Christ there was that one time sacrifice. So if how does that fit in with LDS doctrines of falling away? Or continually going back.
What do you mean by the LDS doctrine of "falling away?" You mean the apostasy? Or personal sins? I'm confused.
Personal sins and personal apostasy.
Hebrews 10:19-21 love this- the veil = Christ flesh
Agreed. That's one of my favorite parts as well.
How do we keep from losing sight of such important things within the routines, ordinances or LDS expectations?
I for one appreciate the Lord's Supper on Sunday. It is a (hopefully) quiet time to remember Christ's sacrifice on the cross, and re-synchronize our lives and hearts with God's will for us.
What happens if we don't go? Some members say if you don't go you don't have the spirit and you are not forgiven. These chapters seem to contradict that thought. Your sentiment seems in tune with scriptures that you go just to remember Christ and not do it for more than that?
Do we as members spend enough time contemplating what Christ has done for us, trying to mold our lives, or do we get caught up in all the to do lists?
I personally am guilty of sometimes losing focus, but I think that's a function of being mortal with all sorts of spiritual and temporal responsibilities to attend to. Sometimes we just get busy.
Agreed. It's strange that it might be possible for people to be so busy doing things for the church that they miss what Christ did for us and try molding our live after Him rather than getting caught up in all the to do'sAt the end of the day, though, I know who has saved me from death and hell, what he expects me to do to as a covenant member of his Church, and how blessed I am to know these things. :)

:)

CrimsonKairos · December 4, 2007

Reading the passage this time, I felt there was more to it then that. I don't know if its just my pre church instinct or if there is more but it came across to me that there was something more to it.

You also have to remember who Paul was writing to. Jews. Pharisees. Scribes. Dare I say even Sadducees. Given that Jews were adamantly loyal to...er...Judaism...it makes sense that Paul would argue strongly against the Old Testament system of worship/salvation since Jesus had instituted a new system with new ordinances.

Ever since the controversy in Antioch about whether Gentiles had to obey the Law of Moses or not (see Acts 15), Paul's mission was to disprove the need for the Law of Moses after Christ's death and resurrection. Paul never argued that Christ did away with all ordinances, or that Christ no longer wanted any leaders/prophets/apostles to guide his Church. That's the difference.

In the non-LDS world there would be no need for a physical temple persay. Your body would now be the temple.

I understand that's the non-LDS view, but I think it misses something important. The Law of Moses was given to Israel after they worshipped the golden calf in the wilderness, showing Jehovah that they weren't ready for the higher law and higher priesthood with its attendant ordinances (endowment, temple marriage, etc...).

So if Christ did away with or fulfilled the lower law and lesser ordinances, it makes sense that he'd then institute the higher law and higher priesthood and greater ordinances that he originally desired Israel to have in the first place. That is why there is still a need for a physical temple.

The Jewish temple was for the lesser priesthood ordinances. Once that was done away with, the temple or house of God now becomes a place where we partake of the higher priesthood ordinances. Why would anyone want to be left with no ordinances, lesser or greater? No temple? No thanks, I'll keep mine. B)

These chapters emphasized the shift from the outward physical that was done away with to the new law being written on peoples hearts and christ making a one time sacrifice.

Again, look who Paul was trying to persuade: Jews who still believed that animal sacrifice was necessary for salvation. Paul isn't arguing against any physical ordinances or formal system of worship.

We don't have to keep going back to the physical temple or have one prophet. The average lay person could prophesy because they had the spirit in their life or personal temple.

I think we both know, though, that prophets in the scriptures were not merely people who prophesied. Anyone can prophesy as its a gift of the Spirit that we may all receive (though not all of us do). The Old Testament is replete with a pattern of God trying to correct and guide and save His people through the ministry of hand-picked prophets.

Moses was Israel's spiritual leader. His role was not just to prophesy. His role was to lead, govern and reveal God's will. I contend that Jesus didn't intend for his apostles to just die away and leave the flock without any divinely authorized shepherd to guide in Christ's physical absence. But that's just me. :)

What do you mean by the LDS doctrine of "falling away?" You mean the apostasy? Or personal sins? I'm confused.
Personal sins and personal apostasy.

I don't see the contradiction. Christ sacrificed himself once and for all, true, but what does that have to do with whether Christ's followers can sin or fall away from the faith?

What happens if we don't go [to sacrament meeting]?

We miss out.

Some members say if you don't go you don't have the spirit and you are not forgiven.

If you have the opportunity to partake of the sacrament, and you are a baptized member of the Church, and you don't go...I personally believe you are not forgiven since you are not renewing the covenant that makes remission of sin possible.

Your sentiment seems in tune with scriptures that you go just to remember Christ and not do it for more than that?

But that's not what I said at all. I said I use sacrament meeting to help me focus on the foundation of my religion and spiritual life: Jesus Christ. I never said Church is just a time to meditate or that ordinances aren't necessary. In addition, I don't think the scriptures say that either. Christ himself instituted the Lord's Supper as an ordinance to replace the Passover, so I hardly think it's an unnecessary ordinance.

It's strange that it might be possible for people to be so busy doing things for the church that they miss what Christ did for us and try molding our live after Him rather than getting caught up in all the to do's.

Given that human nature is what it is, I don't think it's strange at all. I mean, Jehovah wanted Israel to obey so badly that after the exodus from Egypt, He commanded them to nail scriptures to their doorways, wear scriptures on their foreheads, etc. all to remind them of their new duties and doctrines. Yet all too often, the very presence of the reminders proved an obstacle to remembering what was truly important in their worship of Jehovah.

rosie321 · December 4, 2007

Thanks Crimson. Like I stated in the other post, this chapter read very differently to me this time and it felt like there was something important that needed to be considered. I'm still working through it, much like you did with Christ and the atonement. I am not quite certain what needs to be learned or if I'm just being to nitpicky :) .

[

quote]You also have to remember who Paul was writing to. Jews. Pharisees. Scribes. Dare I say even Sadducees. Given that Jews were adamantly loyal to...er...Judaism...it makes sense that Paul would argue strongly against the Old Testament system of worship/salvation since Jesus had instituted a new system with new ordinances.

Ever since the controversy in Antioch about whether Gentiles had to obey the Law of Moses or not (see Acts 15), Paul's mission was to disprove the need for the Law of Moses after Christ's death and resurrection. Paul never argued that Christ did away with all ordinances, or that Christ no longer wanted any leaders/prophets/apostles to guide his Church. That's the difference.[/quote] It does appear in the New Testatment from the way that the apostles and christ still maintained structure that some kind of organization was needed. Even if this organization was less formally done then in the New Testament.

Perhaps the struggle I'm having with this passage is that the LDs church brings back the ordinances and laws of the old testament with some now covered by Christ. This passage shows the futility in the law and ordinances . Those in OT times had to keep performing the ordinances, to no avail. But Christ did it once and for all. What does this mean for members of the church with all these ordinances? The ordinances pose a danger of creating many modern day pharisees and saducees who keep strict obedience to laws and ordinances. How can we avoid going down their path?

Considering the sacrament as an example, in the New Testament Christ asks his disciples to do it in His remembrance. It isn't presented as something necessary for salvation or to move along in his gospel. Yet sacrament is looked at as a place to go, be cleansed and renew the covenants. Much emphasis is placed on the act of taking the sacrament that two ways of viewing it come forth. One is done out of respect or in memory of Jesus and the other out of obligation. If you don't do this then _fill in the blank_.

It is my belief that if you have love for another you will just seek to do what pleases another. You will not feel obligation to do something out of fear or duty.

This raises questions in my mind such as: why do I do what I do? Why do I go to Church? Why do I do these ordinances? Have I taken a moment today to consider what Christ and Heavenly Father have done? What expectations do I have of others? Is the Church just becoming an obligation? Why? If so how can I change this?

If you have the opportunity to partake of the sacrament, and you are a baptized member of the Church, and you don't go...I personally believe you are not forgiven since you are not renewing the covenant that makes remission of sin possible.

Intent of the heart and God's judgement of it would make the difference though, agreed? Should we go as far as say that everyone that doesn't go to sacrament isn't able to be forgiven?

I don't see the contradiction. Christ sacrificed himself once and for all, true, but what does that have to do with whether Christ's followers can sin or fall away from the faith?

Because there are some that would say that once you are saved/ or hook up with God that it is a final thing. His sacrifice was the final sacrifice. If you are hooked up correctly there is no falling away. Salvation is assured. Perfoming works would only confirm that you are His and it would also assist others in gaining gospel understanding.

Would the marriage analogy apply here? Throughout scriptures the relationship Christ has with His Church(members) is compared to the marriage covenant. The contract is binding unless one actively pursues relationships outside that covenant or they choose to terminate.

Given that human nature is what it is, I don't think it's strange at all. I mean, Jehovah wanted Israel to obey so badly that after the exodus from Egypt, He commanded them to nail scriptures to their doorways, wear scriptures on their foreheads, etc. all to remind them of their new duties and doctrines. Yet all too often, the very presence of the reminders proved an obstacle to remembering what was truly important in their worship of Jehovah.

Considering the marriage covenant analogy, this is most unfortunate

sixpacktr · December 4, 2007

This raises questions in my mind such as: why do I do what I do? Why do I go to Church? Why do I do these ordinances? Have I taken a moment today to consider what Christ and Heavenly Father have done? What expectations do I have of others? Is the Church just becoming an obligation? Why? If so how can I change this?

Rosie,

I remember a talk in GC by I believe Elder McConkie, but I don't remember clearly. It was back in my days at BYU (so the mid 80s), and the talk was about doing our duty. He broke down the reasons people do things in the church (and maybe in any other pursuit) as follows:

1) Out of fear. You do it because you are afraid of punishment or retribution (won't make it to the CK, etc.)

2) Out of habit. You do it because it is what you do (go to church because my parents did)

3) Out of a sense of duty. My obligation, if I don't do it someone else will have to, etc.

4) Out of love. The best reason to do something, and one that shows we have become more Christlike.

He stated that as long as at least you are doing things, it is better than not doing them, but that 3 was a good reason to do them, but 4 was the best (of course). He also stated that oft times things progress from 1 to 4 as we gain more of an understanding of our purposes for doing things.

Anyway, I remember that talk from time to time. I remember it vividly, not when it was given, but I see myself in the BYU Laundry, where I was a janitor, with lots of time to think as I did things, and pondering the meaning of that talk.

I hope that I have progressed more to levels 3 and 4 at least...

rosie321 · December 4, 2007

Thanks Six!

You pointed out a place that continually concerns me. My primary focus is doing what I do out of love for Christ and what he has done. I strive my best to always be found in the number four spot. In places outside the church for me this is easier to do and I feel good doing what He asks.

Once I enter into the church however all the expectations, to do's start to become overwhelming. I get lost in the myriad of details. I realize that many peoples focus can be any of your four reasons. Pursuing each reason may produce different results. Sometimes its really a challenge to feel a closeness to God at Church. So then at times I find myself forcing myself to go which troubles me and makes me anxious.

When I've gone to other churches I don't feel this pressure nor do I feel abandoned by God for trying to choose the right. I feel closer to God and feel the confidence to everything. I get renewed. Why is this? If I'm following the spirit, and the LDS church is true, shouldn't it be easier to go to the LDS church? Shouldn't going to church be the simplest act of remembrance and love for the Savior? Others come out strengthened. I can't help but wonder about my eternal prospects at times and if I've totally missed the train

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This raises questions in my mind such as: why do I do what I do? Why do I go to Church? Why do I do these ordinances? Have I taken a moment today to consider what Christ and Heavenly Father have done? What expectations do I have of others? Is the Church just becoming an obligation? Why? If so how can I change this?