Guest Starsky Posted January 12, 2004 Report Posted January 12, 2004 Imagine a time where everything was revealed....many would come running to join the 'right' crowd...but as individuals became disenchanted with this or that, they would find some reason for it not meeting their expectations and they would be gone. Things happen even on a shallow spiritual/emotional level today this same way. Why should there be any more evidence revealed.....it only weakens the already weak.
Guest antishock82003 Posted January 12, 2004 Report Posted January 12, 2004 Wow Peace...you sound like someone who is reeeeeeeeeally benefiting from Church membership. Whew... Maybe you should reconsider how you go about determining what is good for you and what is bad...what is right and what is wrong...because you don't sound too happy.
Guest Starsky Posted January 12, 2004 Report Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 12 2004, 04:43 PM Wow Peace...you sound like someone who is reeeeeeeeeally benefiting from Church membership. Whew...Maybe you should reconsider how you go about determining what is good for you and what is bad...what is right and what is wrong...because you don't sound too happy. Hey consider where JS was in his last days.....it was no picnic...I can tell you that. Just because some members and leaders are messed up, it doesn't change the Gospel as taught in the BofM nor the other blessings available within the church.The Lord said this:Matt. 18: 7 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!I just turn it all over the God. :)
Guest TheProudDuck Posted January 12, 2004 Report Posted January 12, 2004 Peace -- I really do want to understand your argument, but I think there may be a typo in this paragraph that is keeping me from understanding what you're saying:You must learn that there are spiritual confirmations and then there are physical ones. Both have been established on this thread and those you don't want to accept those that are...because they want what isn't...isn't going to get anything from this discussion.There may be a word or two missing in there. Help me out.There are plates which show this type of historical record keeping was done...JS did his translation and story before these physical evidences were available.That alone should give you pause. But no...you want this or that...like we are your parents at a super market and you want to fill the basket full of your 'childlike' things.I think someone just took a dig at me.I don't ask for physical evidence of things that are properly known by faith. I do ask that the physical evidence not directly contradict that which I'm supposed to be having faith in. I'd rather not be in the place of the Catholic theologians who refused to look through Galileo's telescope because they didn't want their spiritual convictions to be overturned by proof. God is not a trickster. He wants us to discover and believe the truth. There is no virtue in calling white what our eyes perceive as black and calling our disregard of our senses and mind "faith." Faith is for discovering the hidden treasures that the natural eye can't see at all.
Guest TheProudDuck Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Ant -- On the other hand, would we really expect to find evidence of an ancient battle on Cumorah? I mean, as I understand it, there isn't any archaelogical evidence that the Battle of Chalons ever happened, but you don't see the Huns around much anymore, either. Something happened to them.
Guest Starsky Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 QUOTEÂ You must learn that there are spiritual confirmations and then there are physical ones. Both have been established on this thread and those you don't want to accept those that are...because they want what isn't...isn't going to get anything from this discussion. There may be a word or two missing in there. Help me out.LOL Lets see if I can put that just a little better:You must learn that there are spiritual comfirmations on one hand, and then there are physical ones on the other. Both have been established on this thread .... those who don't want to accept what has already been presented...or 'are' established...don't because they want what isn't or hasn't been given....and therefore they won't get anything out of this discussion...All of this because they want what they can't have...and what they can't have really isn't all that essential anyway.Does that help? :)
Guest Starsky Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 QUOTEÂ There are plates which show this type of historical record keeping was done...JS did his translation and story before these physical evidences were available.That alone should give you pause. But no...you want this or that...like we are your parents at a super market and you want to fill the basket full of your 'childlike' things.I think someone just took a dig at me.LOL...SORRY.
Guest Starsky Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 I don't ask for physical evidence of things that are properly known by faith. I do ask that the physical evidence not directly contradict that which I'm supposed to be having faith in. I'd rather not be in the place of the Catholic theologians who refused to look through Galileo's telescope because they didn't want their spiritual convictions to be overturned by proof. God is not a trickster. He wants us to discover and believe the truth. There is no virtue in calling white what our eyes perceive as black and calling our disregard of our senses and mind "faith." Faith is for discovering the hidden treasures that the natural eye can't see at all.Okay...what specifically are you talking about?
Cal Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Peace--allow me to explore your position a bit, if I could. The first thing I would like you to make clear to me is the following: As I read your posts you are making it clear that your belief system is rooted experiences INTERNAL to you, and has nothing to do with the outside world. Do I have it right? In other words, when you read JS saying he spoke to God, or the BoM claiming to be a literal history of the Native Americans, you accept it based on feelings you get, not on external verification? And, that you are willing to have faith in something, even though there is a strong weight of the physical evidence against it?
Guest antishock82003 Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 12 2004, 05:02 PM Ant -- On the other hand, would we really expect to find evidence of an ancient battle on Cumorah? I mean, as I understand it, there isn't any archaelogical evidence that the Battle of Chalons ever happened, but you don't see the Huns around much anymore, either. Something happened to them. Well, I really hate to argue with a lawyer, but...1) We know the Romans and the Huns existed whereas the Nephites/Jaredites/Lamanites are only accepted as real by a VERY small percentage of the world's population. SO...an historical account of the Romans and the Huns have more credibility simply because we can trace them through various records...written, archaeological, and genetic.2) Unlike the Battle of Chalons (where the approximate area of the conflict was waged) we definitely know the precise location of the BoM's Fina Climatic Battle Part Two...at least accordin to an Official Statement and various other Church historical records (i.e. statements from dead Church leadership regarind the Hill Cumorah's location).3) The Battle of Chalons wasn't the Final Climatic Battle that would Result in Extermination of an Entire People...it was more like the knockout punch of a bloated overweight and past his prime heavyweight fighter. The importance of the Battle of Hill Cumorah is so much more important historically than the Battle of Chalons...hence my insistance on an archaeological expedition! What an amazing opportunity for the whole world to learn about two advanced civilizations competing for land and resources in the New World. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of evidence to corroborate the BoM's story...if only to reveal history itself. If no evidence is found, then we can only assume that the "historical narrative" found within the BoM is nothing more than a fanciful tale.
Cal Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Anti--you don't even have to go that far to prove it is "fanciful tale". JS's narrative of the events leading up to the BoM cast considerable doubt and strain credulity to the limit when considered in total. One of the primary knock out blows is the fact that JS's own Angel Moroni refered to the Native Americans of the then frontier (now the east and midwest) as the Lamanites of the BoM. Genetic studies of these tribes leave no doubt that they are of North East Asian decent (Siberia) and have no roots in Hebrew origins. In fact, no american native tribes have any genetic roots in the middle east. But the main point is that the ones MORONI said were Lamanites, defininitely are NOT. That is enough misinformation to ruin JS's crediblility is my eyes.
Guest bizabra Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Peace+Jan 11 2004, 05:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 11 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 11 2004, 08:32 AM Regarding upheavals-----read my geologically correct lips---THERE WERE NO UPHEAVALS NEAR THE HEAL CUMORAH DURING THE LAST 5000 YEARS. In fact there haven't been any for at least 10,000 years when the last ice age scoured the area. So much for the Jaredite or Lamanite artifacts. LOL...you have got to be kidding me...NO? Well, if you are possitive that those fellas know what they are talking about better than a prophet of God...then you have made your choice.But for me and my house...I believe the history and science books like I believe toilet paper will hold together in water. You crack me up! Do you ever take modern medicine? Use modern appliances relying on scientific principles to work? Did you have your babies in a hospital? Would you eat herbs and rely solely on a preisthood blessing? or take the drugs and follow the regime your oncologist presribed if you found out you had cancer? Do you think historians are liars? Would you prefer to live a life IGNORANT OF HISTORY AND BEREFT OF SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES IN HEALTH AND TECHNOLOGY???? Would you REALLY?Tch!!!!!!!. . . . . . . .bloody social recidivist. . . . . . .
Guest Starsky Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Jan 12 2004, 05:50 PM Peace--allow me to explore your position a bit, if I could. The first thing I would like you to make clear to me is the following:As I read your posts you are making it clear that your belief system is rooted experiences INTERNAL to you, and has nothing to do with the outside world. Do I have it right? In other words, when you read JS saying he spoke to God, or the BoM claiming to be a literal history of the Native Americans, you accept it based on feelings you get, not on external verification?And, that you are willing to have faith in something, even though there is a strong weight of the physical evidence against it? I have external worldly experiences. I have seen physical miracles before my eyes...and within my flesh. Like the time I broke my hip, phemor, and back in a fall. When I was in the ER my husband gave me a blessing and I literally felt my bones come together and mend.I got up off the bed and walked.The parametics and ER Phys. were in so much shock they studdered and stammered and said that I couldn't do what I did.That is the outside world in God's hands. I have had visitations from my children who have passed away and many other experiences I won't share here.I know JS was who he said he was even though there may be writing and stuff that would make he appear less than he was. Let me explain that last idea for you in scripture...Jacob 4:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.
Jenda Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by bizabra+Jan 13 2004, 12:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jan 13 2004, 12:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 11 2004, 05:12 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 11 2004, 08:32 AM Regarding upheavals-----read my geologically correct lips---THERE WERE NO UPHEAVALS NEAR THE HEAL CUMORAH DURING THE LAST 5000 YEARS. In fact there haven't been any for at least 10,000 years when the last ice age scoured the area. So much for the Jaredite or Lamanite artifacts. LOL...you have got to be kidding me...NO? Well, if you are possitive that those fellas know what they are talking about better than a prophet of God...then you have made your choice.But for me and my house...I believe the history and science books like I believe toilet paper will hold together in water. You crack me up! Do you ever take modern medicine? Use modern appliances relying on scientific principles to work? Did you have your babies in a hospital? Would you eat herbs and rely solely on a preisthood blessing? or take the drugs and follow the regime your oncologist presribed if you found out you had cancer? Do you think historians are liars? Would you prefer to live a life IGNORANT OF HISTORY AND BEREFT OF SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES IN HEALTH AND TECHNOLOGY???? Would you REALLY?Tch!!!!!!!. . . . . . . .bloody social recidivist. . . . . . . Biz, I will give you the benefit of most of your post, but the question about historians (and I would even throw in archeologists) just doesn't fit with the rest of science. Historians, and archeologists, at best, guess at things. Sometimes they are wild stabs in the dark. I have a good friend who is an archeologist, and she said that they make assumptions and build theories that best fit those remains that they have excavated, or, in the case of historians, the writings that they have available from the time.Most science is not exact, and that is especially true for historians/archeologists.
Paul Osborne Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 12 2004, 04:43 PM Wow Peace...you sound like someone who is reeeeeeeeeally benefiting from Church membership. Whew...Maybe you should reconsider how you go about determining what is good for you and what is bad...what is right and what is wrong...because you don't sound too happy. O for crying out loud! Antishock now has the ability to search the hearts and reigns of his fellow LDS friends on this board as they gently pour out their more personal feelings.Why are you here on this board, Antishock? Could it be to convince us poor deceived members of the Church to leave our faith and gain what you think is true happiness? And just how happy are you? You got all mad when someone edited a smily face on your post to try and make you look more happy and you had a hissy.You poor unfortunate soul. Paul O
Jenda Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 (In reality, nobody edited antishock's post. It happened by the way he typed his points. He was listing something in an ABC fashion, and when he got to B, he typed B ) (without the space) and it became B). No editing was necessary.)
Paul Osborne Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 13 2004, 06:53 AM (In reality, nobody edited antishock's post. It happened by the way he typed his points. He was listing something in an ABC fashion, and when he got to B, he typed B ) (without the space) and it became B). No editing was necessary.) Ok. That's good to know. I thought he was being a cry baby but I stand corrected. Thanks for letting me know.Paul O
Paul Osborne Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 13 2004, 07:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 13 2004, 07:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 13 2004, 06:53 AM (In reality, nobody edited antishock's post. It happened by the way he typed his points. He was listing something in an ABC fashion, and when he got to B, he typed B ) (without the space) and it became B). No editing was necessary.) Ok. That's good to know. I thought he was being a cry baby but I stand corrected. Thanks for letting me know.Paul O WAIT JUST A SECOND! Why am I so stupid?! I wasn't thinking right in that last post because Antishock *is* a crybaby and he did it to himself by not being careful with his typing. Gee wizz. I stand corrected. Paul O
Cal Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Peace--you felt your bones come together and mend. And this proves what? I guess it prove whatever you WANT it to prove. I suppose it proves to you that YOUR GOD came down and healed you. How do you know that it wasn't that Mohammed, or some other God took pity on you and decided to heal you?
Cal Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 correction---I meant to say "Mohammed's God" in the last posting.
Paul Osborne Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Jan 13 2004, 08:41 AM Peace--you felt your bones come together and mend. And this proves what? I guess it prove whatever you WANT it to prove. I suppose it proves to you that YOUR GOD came down and healed you. How do you know that it wasn't that Mohammed, or some other God took pity on you and decided to heal you? I can't speak for Peace but I will say that it proves she had a spiritual experience that caused her to believe that the God of Mormonism manifested himself to her in a benevolent way. So, there is no reason for you to question her faith in these things because she has a testimony of those things that are most precious.I too have had a glorious experience (precious pearls) in which the veil burst open and celestial light flooded the room and messengers sent from God confirmed the truthfulenss of the restored Church and my missionary companion was with me seeing the same thing so I know I wasn't just seeing things. Joseph Smith's experience with Moroni is not hard at all for me to comprehend and I'm sure it happened. You are going to be sorry if you don't repent and allow the God of Mormonism to heal your poor soul as you gamble away your salvation to the foolishness of the world. You have been adequately warned and the night will soon come and the harvest will be over-- and your soul not saved. Paul O
Guest antishock82003 Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 13 2004, 06:53 AM (In reality, nobody edited antishock's post. It happened by the way he typed his points. He was listing something in an ABC fashion, and when he got to B, he typed B ) (without the space) and it became B). No editing was necessary.) B)B)There's a difference you know...
Guest antishock82003 Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 13 2004, 10:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 13 2004, 10:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 13 2004, 06:53 AM (In reality, nobody edited antishock's post. It happened by the way he typed his points. He was listing something in an ABC fashion, and when he got to B, he typed B ) (without the space) and it became B). No editing was necessary.) B)B)There's a difference you know... Ok...I'm a crybaby...sorry...I was just feeling paranoid because I've had so many posts deleted and edited lately. I admit...b + ) ='s B). See? This is what grownups do when they're wrong. We admit it. You gave me proof that I was wrong, and I admit it. And frankly, besides being a little embarrassed, I feel better because I have learned something new.Now, if we can just get some of you to admit that BoM is a fanciful story with no historical proof we'd be getting somewhere....
Guest antishock82003 Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 13 2004, 06:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 13 2004, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 12 2004, 04:43 PM Wow Peace...you sound like someone who is reeeeeeeeeally benefiting from Church membership. Whew...Maybe you should reconsider how you go about determining what is good for you and what is bad...what is right and what is wrong...because you don't sound too happy. O for crying out loud! Antishock now has the ability to search the hearts and reigns of his fellow LDS friends on this board as they gently pour out their more personal feelings.Why are you here on this board, Antishock? Could it be to convince us poor deceived members of the Church to leave our faith and gain what you think is true happiness? And just how happy are you? You got all mad when someone edited a smily face on your post to try and make you look more happy and you had a hissy.You poor unfortunate soul. Paul O You sound upset, too. Maybe Mormonism isn't really benefitting you as much as you think it is. You sound very mean, and spiteful. Shouldn't the gospel have made some incredible change in you for the better? How many years have you had in the Mormon endeavor? Maybe you should re-think your parameters, too, Paul.Can you please address the original post of this thread?
Guest Starsky Posted January 13, 2004 Report Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Jan 13 2004, 08:41 AM Peace--you felt your bones come together and mend. And this proves what? I guess it prove whatever you WANT it to prove. I suppose it proves to you that YOUR GOD came down and healed you. How do you know that it wasn't that Mohammed, or some other God took pity on you and decided to heal you? Did you know....that when you have a spirit from the other side visit you, that your spirits interface? Of course not. LOL You have never experienced that or anything else like unto it....otherwise you wouldn't ask such silly questions or put out such silly ideas.When I had my father's first wife (deceased) come to me in spirit, our spirits interfaced and I knew her every thought emotion and personality. IOW I KNEW her...and yet she died before I was born.I know from when my blessings come.
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