Hill Cumorah

[Guest Starsky]

OOOOOOHHHHHHHHH! I hate not having an edit thingy!

I know from whence my blessings come!

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 13 2004, 10:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 13 2004, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 13 2004, 08:41 AM

Peace--you felt your bones come together and mend.  And this proves what? I guess it prove whatever you WANT it to prove. I suppose it proves to you that YOUR GOD came down and healed you. How do you know that it wasn't that Mohammed, or some other God took pity on you and decided to heal you?

Did you know....that when you have a spirit from the other side visit you, that your spirits interface? Of course not. LOL You have never experienced that or anything else like unto it....otherwise you wouldn't ask such silly questions or put out such silly ideas.

When I had my father's first wife (deceased) come to me in spirit, our spirits interfaced and I knew her every thought emotion and personality. IOW I KNEW her...and yet she died before I was born.

I know from when my blessings come.

WOW! I want some of what your taking!

[Behunin]

Peace,

Your sacred experiences are wasted on some people on this board. Which makes me wonder again: What is their intent?

For people who can't stand LDS people, why do they bother with a LDS talk forum?

Hill Cumorah was not the battle field. No weapons to find. Moroni didn't bury the plates for another 20 years after that "final" battle.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Behunin@Jan 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Hill Cumorah was not the battle field. No weapons to find. Moroni didn't bury the plates for another 20 years after that "final" battle.

I agree, Behunin. I still believe the original Hill Cumorah is in Mexico. Personal experience of many people tell me that that is so. Too many to be denied.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 14 2004, 05:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 14 2004, 05:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Behunin@Jan 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Hill Cumorah was not the battle field.  No weapons to find.  Moroni didn't bury the plates for another 20 years after that "final" battle.

I agree, Behunin. I still believe the original Hill Cumorah is in Mexico. Personal experience of many people tell me that that is so. Too many to be denied.

But you have a message from the office of the First Presidency and various statements by Church prophets and apostles that state the BoM Hill Cumorah is the one located in New York?

Are you really telling me that the Final Battle did not take place at the Hill Cumorah? You may want to re-read the Mormon.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Behunin@Jan 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Peace,

Your sacred experiences are wasted on some people on this board. Which makes me wonder again: What is their intent?

For people who can't stand LDS people, why do they bother with a LDS talk forum?

Hill Cumorah was not the battle field. No weapons to find. Moroni didn't bury the plates for another 20 years after that "final" battle.

Re-read Mormon. Chapter 6.

[Jenda]

Thanks for bringing Mormon 6 to my attention (since I didn't know where it was in your BoM.)

Mormon 6:6 (LDS)

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

What this verse tells me is that, yes, Cumorah was the place of the last battlefield, and yes, all the plates that were entrusted to Mormon are buried there, but, the plates that he was writing on that he handed down to his son, Moroni, were not buried (or he would not be able to continue writing on them.)

The parts of the verse that I italicized are the portions that dealt with the records he buried, and the parts of the verse that I bolded refer to the plates which he passed onto his son that didn't get buried. Moroni took the plates that didn't get buried away from Hill Cumorah and wandered for, what?, 20 years with them? I believe he wandered from Mexico up to NY with them and buried them there. (This last part is just MHO)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jan 13 2004, 10:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jan 13 2004, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 13 2004, 10:52 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 13 2004, 08:41 AM

Peace--you felt your bones come together and mend.  And this proves what? I guess it prove whatever you WANT it to prove. I suppose it proves to you that YOUR GOD came down and healed you. How do you know that it wasn't that Mohammed, or some other God took pity on you and decided to heal you?

Did you know....that when you have a spirit from the other side visit you, that your spirits interface? Of course not. LOL You have never experienced that or anything else like unto it....otherwise you wouldn't ask such silly questions or put out such silly ideas.

When I had my father's first wife (deceased) come to me in spirit, our spirits interfaced and I knew her every thought emotion and personality. IOW I KNEW her...and yet she died before I was born.

I know from when my blessings come.

WOW! I want some of what your taking!

Yeah? Well what I took was the bitter pill called loosing a child to SIDs...so if that is what you want...so be it.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 14 2004, 06:50 AM

Thanks for bringing Mormon 6 to my attention (since I didn't know where it was in your BoM.)

Mormon 6:6 (LDS)

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

What this verse tells me is that, yes, Cumorah was the place of the last battlefield, and yes, all the plates that were entrusted to Mormon are buried there, but, the plates that he was writing on that he handed down to his son, Moroni, were not buried (or he would not be able to continue writing on them.)

The parts of the verse that I italicized are the portions that dealt with the records he buried, and the parts of the verse that I bolded refer to the plates which he passed onto his son that didn't get buried. Moroni took the plates that didn't get buried away from Hill Cumorah and wandered for, what?, 20 years with them? I believe he wandered from Mexico up to NY with them and buried them there. (This last part is just MHO)

I am of the same mind Jenda. When you consider the distance one could travel in 20 years by themselves, and the fact that Moroni was constantly persued....he definitely could have travelled the distance between SA to New York easily.

I have read a few books that also point out the plausability ...

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Behunin@Jan 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Peace,

Your sacred experiences are wasted on some people on this board. Which makes me wonder again: What is their intent?

For people who can't stand LDS people, why do they bother with a LDS talk forum?

It sure does make you wonder. My own personal opinion is this: They can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone....why? because the same spirit of contention that caused them to lose their testimonies...drives them to persecute the saints.

After all it was X-mos that murdered JS.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock is correct about the position of the Church. Don't listen to the faithless scholars at FARMS who have rejected the word of the Lord in effort to cover up and deny what they refuse to understand based on faith. Here is the word of the Lord from his apostles and prophets to the Latter-day Saints:

President Marion G. Romney

Second Counselor in the First Presidency

Marion G. Romney, “America’s Destiny,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, 35

My beloved brothers and sisters, I invite you to join in a prayer that while I speak you and I may both enjoy the Spirit. I will give you a lesson today that the Lord has taken great pains to bring to us

<snip>

It is my purpose in making these remarks to point out from the record of ancient inhabitants of America that the foregoing decrees have been carried out.

In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm 6:6) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation.

You who are acquainted with the Book of Mormon will recall that during the final campaign of the fratricidal war between the armies led by Shiz and those led by Coriantumr “nearly two millions” of Coriantumr’s people had been slain by the sword; “two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.” (Ether 15:2)

<snip>

As I contemplated this tragic scene from the crest of Cumorah and viewed the beautiful land of the Restoration as it appears today, I cried in my soul, “How could it have happened?”

<snip>

This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’.

<snip>

Now my beloved brethren and sisters everywhere, both members of the Church and nonmembers, I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true—both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come

===========================

Elder Mark E. Petersen

Of the Council of the Twelve

Mark E. Petersen, “The Last Words of Moroni,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 57

Last week we passed one of the most significant anniversaries recognized by our Church. It marked the visitations of the Angel Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, preliminary to the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ in our day.

<snip>

As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New York.

Their enemies, known as Lamanites, came against them on this hill. Of that dreadful event Mormon wrote:

“My people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

“… Every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.

“And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.

“And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst.”

<snip>

When finished with the record, Moroni was to hide it up in that same Hill Cumorah which was their battlefield. It would come forth in modern times as the Book of Mormon, named after Moroni’s father, the historian who compiled it.

==============================

Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites."

============================

Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24

"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites."

=================================

President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. "

=======================================

The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221

"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord."

===========================

Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ."

==========================================

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...."

===============================

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.”

==================================

B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York.

=================================

Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, chapter 7, also stated that Cumorah is in New York.

===========================

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

We don’t know where the swords, helmets, and all the rest of the evidence is pertaining to the battle of Cumorah and thereabouts. Our religion is based on faith not facts. Leave us alone and go pick on someone else. You’re just plain mean or in the words of elder Mark E. Peterson-- you are a faith killer!

You have been warned well enough.

Paul O

[Spencer]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 14 2004, 12:54 PM

Antishock,

We don’t know where the swords, helmets, and all the rest of the evidence is pertaining to the battle of Cumorah and thereabouts. Our religion is based on faith not facts. Leave us alone and go pick on someone else. You’re just plain mean or in the words of elder Mark E. Peterson-- you are a faith killer!

You have been warned well enough.

Paul O

Agreed.

Believe what you want to believe, why do you care what we believe? i dont get it.

Spencer

[Jenda]

Antishock (and you) might be correct about the position of the church (but not being a church member, I don't really concern myself with what they say), but their position is inconsistant with what is stated in the Book of Mormon itself. And I trust what the person writing it said better than I trust the people who are trying to interpret his words when they don't follow what is written by the person writing it.

BTW, I have never read anything from FARMS. I didn't need to, I just read the text of the book.

[Paul Osborne]

It just wouldn’t be good if our religion was proven true on a secular level after the manner of the world. The Lord has set everything up so we would be tested on faith and not after sight in things that are proven. Otherwise there is no faith and if the BofM was proven on that basis there would no longer be the precious element of faith which is the first principle of the gospel.

Sadly, people like Antishock want to destroy the first principle of the gospel as we have received it and shake our testimonies. I say that we should stand firm in the gospel and hearken to the teachings of the scriptures and General Authorities of the Church.

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 14 2004, 11:09 AM

Antishock (and you) might be correct about the position of the church (but not being a church member, I don't really concern myself with what they say), but their position is inconsistant with what is stated in the Book of Mormon itself. And I trust what the person writing it said better than I trust the people who are trying to interpret his words when they don't follow what is written by the person writing it.

BTW, I have never read anything from FARMS. I didn't need to, I just read the text of the book.

I still hold with Jenda.....

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Spencer+Jan 14 2004, 11:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spencer @ Jan 14 2004, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 14 2004, 12:54 PM

Antishock,

We don’t know where the swords, helmets, and all the rest of the evidence is pertaining to the battle of Cumorah and thereabouts. Our religion is based on faith not facts. Leave us alone and go pick on someone else. You’re just plain mean or in the words of elder Mark E. Peterson-- you are a faith killer!

You have been warned well enough.

Paul O

Agreed.

Believe what you want to believe, why do you care what we believe? i dont get it.

Spencer

Because I feel you are deceived. It's very apparent that very FEW of the posters on this board are aware of the most BASIC of tenets within Mormonism...which in the end your ignorance of your own Church may be the very thing that keeps you within something that I consider to be founded and built upon precept upon precept of falsities.

This Hill Cumorah thread is a very good example of that. You have direct statements from Church leaders that specifically point out where the Hill Cumorah is located. The lies about its whereabouts are promulgated its members, and by its apologists (FARMS). The reason? Because the Truth about the Hll Cumorah is that there are no archaeological remains at that site to verify the BoM's claims of what would amount to some of history's greatest single (times 2) battles...if we're counting sheer numbers and logistics.

I want members on this board to be acutely aware that 1) the Hill Cumorah according to Church leaders is where it is, and 2) that there is nothing there. I want the members on this board to be aware that the claims of the BoM don't hold up to scrutiny. If they choose to go on faith after that...then so be it...but it's faith based on desire...not evidence.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 14 2004, 11:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 14 2004, 11:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 14 2004, 11:09 AM

Antishock (and you) might be correct about the position of the church (but not being a church member, I don't really concern myself with what they say), but their position is inconsistant with what is stated in the Book of Mormon itself.  And I trust what the person writing it said better than I trust the people who are trying to interpret his words when they don't follow what is written by the person writing it.

BTW, I have never read anything from FARMS.  I didn't need to, I just read the text of the book.

I still hold with Jenda.....

Of course you do because it suits your emotional needs, Peace...

Morm. 6: 2

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

Morm. 6: 4

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

Morm. 6: 11

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 14 2004, 05:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 14 2004, 05:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 14 2004, 11:50 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 14 2004, 11:09 AM

Antishock (and you) might be correct about the position of the church (but not being a church member, I don't really concern myself with what they say), but their position is inconsistant with what is stated in the Book of Mormon itself.  And I trust what the person writing it said better than I trust the people who are trying to interpret his words when they don't follow what is written by the person writing it.

BTW, I have never read anything from FARMS.  I didn't need to, I just read the text of the book.

I still hold with Jenda.....

Of course you do because it suits your emotional needs, Peace...

Morm. 6: 2

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

Morm. 6: 4

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

Morm. 6: 11

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

Antishock, you have placed yourself in the same box you complain that the LDS have placed themselves in. Because you feel the need to find fault with them, you look to finding fault with the BoM. But instead of reading it, you read what the leaders have to say about it, and then find fault with that.

My point is that there is more than one belief about the BoM, and just because one set of beliefs don't hold up, doesn't mean that they all don't. If you read the BoM without all the preconceived ideas you have gotten from the church leaders, you might actually find a book worth reading.

As I said, I am not LDS, I have never read FARMS anything, I am not an apologist, I am a believer, though. I have read the BoM without the rose colored glasses that the LDS general authorities say we need to apply, and I find a book that is quite believable. Because I am allowed to read it and interpret it for myself.

In your post, you forgot to quote verse 6, the one I quoted above. If you want to pick apart the LDS, that is an appropriate way to go (not that you should do that ), but if you want to pick apart the BoM, you should leave this argument out of your bag of tricks because on reading that verse, it falls completely apart. Which is your main objective?

[Cal]

Paul O,

So the LDS Church is not based on facts? So I quess it doesn't matter whether JS's story is factual or not, huh? As long as he made the claim, that is good enough for you, right? Your position can be described in one word....

GULLIBLE.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 14 2004, 06:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 14 2004, 06:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 14 2004, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 14 2004, 11:50 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 14 2004, 11:09 AM

Antishock (and you) might be correct about the position of the church (but not being a church member, I don't really concern myself with what they say), but their position is inconsistant with what is stated in the Book of Mormon itself.  And I trust what the person writing it said better than I trust the people who are trying to interpret his words when they don't follow what is written by the person writing it.

BTW, I have never read anything from FARMS.  I didn't need to, I just read the text of the book.

I still hold with Jenda.....

Of course you do because it suits your emotional needs, Peace...

Morm. 6: 2

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

Morm. 6: 4

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

Morm. 6: 11

11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

Antishock, you have placed yourself in the same box you complain that the LDS have placed themselves in. Because you feel the need to find fault with them, you look to finding fault with the BoM. But instead of reading it, you read what the leaders have to say about it, and then find fault with that.

My point is that there is more than one belief about the BoM, and just because one set of beliefs don't hold up, doesn't mean that they all don't. If you read the BoM without all the preconceived ideas you have gotten from the church leaders, you might actually find a book worth reading.

As I said, I am not LDS, I have never read FARMS anything, I am not an apologist, I am a believer, though. I have read the BoM without the rose colored glasses that the LDS general authorities say we need to apply, and I find a book that is quite believable. Because I am allowed to read it and interpret it for myself.

In your post, you forgot to quote verse 6, the one I quoted above. If you want to pick apart the LDS, that is an appropriate way to go (not that you should do that ), but if you want to pick apart the BoM, you should leave this argument out of your bag of tricks because on reading that verse, it falls completely apart. Which is your main objective?

Would your quibble about LDS leaders and the Hll Cumorah include Jospeph Smith? I personally think that you know what I'm saying makes sense...but you don't want to give in to the idea that the Hill Cumorah...where ever you may want it to be...lacks arcaeological evidence supporting the BoM's claims. That's ok. You can feel that way.

[Paul Osborne]

Cal,

The Church is not based upon facts that must be proven true to the world. Also, I would much rather have you think I am gullible than deny the witness I have received from God.

Paul O

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 14 2004, 07:20 PM

Cal,

The Church is not based upon facts that must be proven true to the world. Also, I would much rather have you think I am gullible than deny the witness I have received from God.

Paul O

That is most certainly something I can agree with.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 14 2004, 05:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 14 2004, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Spencer@Jan 14 2004, 11:07 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 14 2004, 12:54 PM

Antishock,

We don’t know where the swords, helmets, and all the rest of the evidence is pertaining to the battle of Cumorah and thereabouts. Our religion is based on faith not facts. Leave us alone and go pick on someone else. You’re just plain mean or in the words of elder Mark E. Peterson-- you are a faith killer!

You have been warned well enough.

Paul O

Agreed.

Believe what you want to believe, why do you care what we believe? i dont get it.

Spencer

Because I feel you are deceived. It's very apparent that very FEW of the posters on this board are aware of the most BASIC of tenets within Mormonism...which in the end your ignorance of your own Church may be the very thing that keeps you within something that I consider to be founded and built upon precept upon precept of falsities.

This Hill Cumorah thread is a very good example of that. You have direct statements from Church leaders that specifically point out where the Hill Cumorah is located. The lies about its whereabouts are promulgated its members, and by its apologists (FARMS). The reason? Because the Truth about the Hll Cumorah is that there are no archaeological remains at that site to verify the BoM's claims of what would amount to some of history's greatest single (times 2) battles...if we're counting sheer numbers and logistics.

I want members on this board to be acutely aware that 1) the Hill Cumorah according to Church leaders is where it is, and 2) that there is nothing there. I want the members on this board to be aware that the claims of the BoM don't hold up to scrutiny. If they choose to go on faith after that...then so be it...but it's faith based on desire...not evidence.

Aren't you being just a bit too concerned about us in your own blinded state of being? LOL

There may be differences of teachings on such things...but if they served those men to make them closer to the Lord...then it served it's purpose.

Consider the difference between 'laws and principles' where applications can cause the shallow thinker to believe there has been a lost doctrine....

On this same premis, but working with 'useless' understandings...as far as salvation goes....some will gain one positive confirmation about the 'hill' and it's location and another will receive a confirmation on a different location because it works for them.

Does this make them both wrong? No...consider their prayers or desires which would work for God's purpose and work for them....Remember Moses 1: 39

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and deternal life of man.

What builds faith...works for God's desired end result for man. If what they believe makes them better and stronger spiritually fueled men...that is what God will employ.

When you discuss non-essential knowledge...in the sense of is it absolute...can it be proven physically, you are talking about a level that isn't necessary for building faith.

Yet is you truly want all of this knowledge you claim to want...are you willing to do what it takes to get it?

D&C 121:

28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.

29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

30 And also, if there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars—

31 All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—

32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints....

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of dlove toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let bvirtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy cconfidence wax strong in the dpresence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant acompanion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Also....D&C 93:

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is aSpirit, even the Spirit of truth;

24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

27 And no man receiveth a afulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

And...D&C 128: 14

14 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as are the records on the earth in relation to your dead, which are truly made out, so also are the records in heaven. This, therefore, is the sealing and binding power, and, in one sense of the word, the keys of the kingdom, which consist in the key of knowledge.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 14 2004, 10:54 AM

Antishock,

We don’t know where the swords, helmets, and all the rest of the evidence is pertaining to the battle of Cumorah and thereabouts. Our religion is based on faith not facts. Leave us alone and go pick on someone else. You’re just plain mean or in the words of elder Mark E. Peterson-- you are a faith killer!

You have been warned well enough.

Paul O

I think antishock is just mean. He does not really care about LDS people and how we are being so called "deceived".

The LDS church is not going away. Antishock, if you care about people, go help the homeless. The LDS people do not need your help. If you are concerned about enlightening deceived people, then go after politicians.