Hill Cumorah

[Behunin]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 10 2004, 07:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 10 2004, 07:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 10 2004, 04:11 PM

I believe what the Mormon leaders have said. I have faith in God and what has been revealed by revelation. I don't have to have physical evidence to make me believe. Faith is to believe without a sure knowledge which is what hard hearted nonbelievers insist on having in order for them to believe.

I believe in Jesus too. I believe the Book of Mormon. I believe there is still time for antishock to repent and come unto Christ and hearken to the Book of Mormon.

Paul O

Why am I being "hard hearted" when asking for some archaeological evidence around the Hill Cumorah area?

Why do you need it? What is your intent?

[Guest antishock82003]

Ok..before we shift the issue to "my intent"...why don't you give the thread a shot? Where are all the remains/weaponry/accoutrements of those who died at the Hill Cumorah?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 11 2004, 07:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 11 2004, 07:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Jan 10 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock said

15:2 illustrates that "nearly two millions " of the Jaredites had their last great battle at the Hill Cumorah.

Then he said,

Since they died only a mere 1500-1600 years a ago (not much time archaeologically speaking) I'm sure their exacavation wouldn't be much a a problem. Why haven't we found any artifacts yet?

He is trying to create a problem by combining 2 events that were thousands od years apart.

Well, wasn't the Hill Cumorah there when the Jaredites fought? Maybe it was in an area of the earth that wasn't affected by the upheavals as described in the BoM.

Nevertheless, since you don't want to suppose that the remains of millions of warriors would be located at the Hill Cumorah...where then are the remains/weapns/accoutrements of hundreds of thousands of Pre-Colombian warriors? Where? WHERE!?!??!

Please address this one issue.

They are turned into rush...or totally back to mother earth...it's called decay. It is caused by elements and time. Where they were had pleanty of both.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 11 2004, 08:32 AM

Regarding upheavals-----read my geologically correct lips---THERE WERE NO UPHEAVALS NEAR THE HEAL CUMORAH DURING THE LAST 5000 YEARS. In fact there haven't been any for at least 10,000 years when the last ice age scoured the area. So much for the Jaredite or Lamanite artifacts.

LOL...you have got to be kidding me...NO? Well, if you are possitive that those fellas know what they are talking about better than a prophet of God...then you have made your choice.

But for me and my house...I believe the history and science books like I believe toilet paper will hold together in water.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 11 2004, 05:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 11 2004, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 11 2004, 07:39 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Jan 10 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock said

15:2 illustrates that "nearly two millions " of the Jaredites had their last great battle at the Hill Cumorah.

Then he said,

Since they died only a mere 1500-1600 years a ago (not much time archaeologically speaking) I'm sure their exacavation wouldn't be much a a problem. Why haven't we found any artifacts yet?

He is trying to create a problem by combining 2 events that were thousands od years apart.

Well, wasn't the Hill Cumorah there when the Jaredites fought? Maybe it was in an area of the earth that wasn't affected by the upheavals as described in the BoM.

Nevertheless, since you don't want to suppose that the remains of millions of warriors would be located at the Hill Cumorah...where then are the remains/weapns/accoutrements of hundreds of thousands of Pre-Colombian warriors? Where? WHERE!?!??!

Please address this one issue.

They are turned into rush...or totally back to mother earth...it's called decay. It is caused by elements and time. Where they were had pleanty of both.

How do you KNOW this? Has the Hill Cumorah been excavated? How about the surrounding fields? Are you aware that metal objects (gold, steel, brass etc...) can last for tens of thousands of years in the ground without decaying? Are you aware that bones can last tens of thousands of years in the ground, and I'm talking wet swampy ground (see: Mammoth, Mississippi google).

Seriously, has there been any major archaeological research done at the Hill Cumorah?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 11 2004, 05:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 11 2004, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 11 2004, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 11 2004, 07:39 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Jan 10 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock said

15:2 illustrates that "nearly two millions " of the Jaredites had their last great battle at the Hill Cumorah.

Then he said,

Since they died only a mere 1500-1600 years a ago (not much time archaeologically speaking) I'm sure their exacavation wouldn't be much a a problem. Why haven't we found any artifacts yet?

He is trying to create a problem by combining 2 events that were thousands od years apart.

Well, wasn't the Hill Cumorah there when the Jaredites fought? Maybe it was in an area of the earth that wasn't affected by the upheavals as described in the BoM.

Nevertheless, since you don't want to suppose that the remains of millions of warriors would be located at the Hill Cumorah...where then are the remains/weapns/accoutrements of hundreds of thousands of Pre-Colombian warriors? Where? WHERE!?!??!

Please address this one issue.

They are turned into rush...or totally back to mother earth...it's called decay. It is caused by elements and time. Where they were had pleanty of both.

How do you KNOW this? Has the Hill Cumorah been excavated? How about the surrounding fields? Are you aware that metal objects (gold, steel, brass etc...) can last for tens of thousands of years in the ground without decaying? Are you aware that bones can last tens of thousands of years in the ground, and I'm talking wet swampy ground (see: Mammoth, Mississippi google).

Seriously, has there been any major archaeological research done at the Hill Cumorah?

Seriously...no.

There is no need. I am sure the Lord will reveal all things in HIS time and HIS way. Until then, He asks for faith because He knows faith is power. Knowing isn't always power.

I mean...look at the argument just a few decades ago when the anti's were arguing the BofM was false because there was no metal plates ever found with writtings on them.

Today there are hundreds of artifacts where metal was used to record history or scripture...the latest being the site of the dead sea scrolls. They found in cave #3 a metal plate with religious writings upon them.

Give it time and all things will be revealled...but remember Doubting Thomas...

John 20: 24

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came....

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 11 2004, 05:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 11 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 11 2004, 08:32 AM

Regarding upheavals-----read my geologically correct lips---THERE WERE NO UPHEAVALS NEAR THE HEAL CUMORAH DURING THE LAST 5000 YEARS. In fact there haven't been any for at least 10,000 years when the last ice age scoured the area. So much for the Jaredite or Lamanite artifacts.

LOL...you have got to be kidding me...NO? Well, if you are possitive that those fellas know what they are talking about better than a prophet of God...then you have made your choice.

But for me and my house...I believe the history and science books like I believe toilet paper will hold together in water.

Yeah, scientists misrepresent themselves and act like they have personally been around for 5,000 plus years studying the earth under a magnifying glass while foolish suckers oohh and aahh over their every little theory as if they were the law of the universe!! Away with the scientists and their false theories! The fact is that today’s scientists are less than 100 years old and they act like they have been around and know what happened 10,000 years ago. They act like their tools and measuring instruments know what happened too. C-14; what a joke!

So I ask; who is the more foolish; the fool or the fool who follows a fool?

--------------------------

I'm sticking with the scriptures and faith.

Paul O

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 11 2004, 03:36 PM

Ok..before we shift the issue to "my intent"...why don't you give the thread a shot? Where are all the remains/weaponry/accoutrements of those who died at the Hill Cumorah?

It's obvious. Coriantumr was just really conscientious about policing the battlefield. He cleaned everything up.

If I were interested in playing apologist, I'd just say that the letter from the Church leadership stating that the general authorities thought the Hill Cumorah was the place of the battles described in the Book of Mormon got it wrong. Heaven knows the GAs have been wrong about enough things. Better that they should accept a little scriptural-interpretation egg on their faces, then create such a huge stumbling-block for those who want to believe as the lack of evidence of a great pre-Columbian battle in upstate New York creates.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 11 2004, 05:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 11 2004, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 11 2004, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 11 2004, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 11 2004, 07:39 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Jan 10 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock said

15:2 illustrates that "nearly two millions " of the Jaredites had their last great battle at the Hill Cumorah.

Then he said,

Since they died only a mere 1500-1600 years a ago (not much time archaeologically speaking) I'm sure their exacavation wouldn't be much a a problem. Why haven't we found any artifacts yet?

He is trying to create a problem by combining 2 events that were thousands od years apart.

Well, wasn't the Hill Cumorah there when the Jaredites fought? Maybe it was in an area of the earth that wasn't affected by the upheavals as described in the BoM.

Nevertheless, since you don't want to suppose that the remains of millions of warriors would be located at the Hill Cumorah...where then are the remains/weapns/accoutrements of hundreds of thousands of Pre-Colombian warriors? Where? WHERE!?!??!

Please address this one issue.

They are turned into rush...or totally back to mother earth...it's called decay. It is caused by elements and time. Where they were had pleanty of both.

How do you KNOW this? Has the Hill Cumorah been excavated? How about the surrounding fields? Are you aware that metal objects (gold, steel, brass etc...) can last for tens of thousands of years in the ground without decaying? Are you aware that bones can last tens of thousands of years in the ground, and I'm talking wet swampy ground (see: Mammoth, Mississippi google).

Seriously, has there been any major archaeological research done at the Hill Cumorah?

Seriously...no.

There is no need. I am sure the Lord will reveal all things in HIS time and HIS way. Until then, He asks for faith because He knows faith is power. Knowing isn't always power.

I mean...look at the argument just a few decades ago when the anti's were arguing the BofM was false because there was no metal plates ever found with writtings on them.

Today there are hundreds of artifacts where metal was used to record history or scripture...the latest being the site of the dead sea scrolls. They found in cave #3 a metal plate with religious writings upon them.

Give it time and all things will be revealled...but remember Doubting Thomas...

John 20: 24

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came....

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Why don't you think any excavations have been done at what would be one of the most important archaeological events/site in the modern era?

[Guest Starsky]

I thought I covered that already. In the Lord's own way and time.

[Guest antishock82003]

Well, that's rather convenient. I'm getting the feeling that is a standard answer when any kind of evidence or proof to bolster the BoM's claims is lacking:

1) It'll be revealed in the "Lord's own time" (whatever that means...a thousand years?).

2) You have to let the "Spirit" teach you.

a) You have to WANT TO KNOW that the BoM is True.

B) If you feel good while reading the BoM it is True.

c) If you feel bad while reading the BoM repeat 'a' until 'b' happens. Maybe deprive yourself of food while you're at it.

Have you ever considered that the reason why there is no bones/armor/weaponry of 100,000's of pre-columbian warriors at the Hill Cumorah is because it doesn't exist? Because the story contained in the BoM is a fabrication?

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 12 2004, 04:40 AM

Have you ever considered that the reason why there is no bones/armor/weaponry of 100,000's of pre-columbian warriors at the Hill Cumorah is because it doesn't exist? Because the story contained in the BoM is a fabrication?

I don't see how that could be construed as a possibility. I've got Dan Peterson of the Funny FARMS working on inventing a plausible explanation even as we speak. I think it has something to do with the hill being moved from New York to Mexico. Still no word on the artifacts though.

[Behunin]

Well, get a shovel and a permit and start digging

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Jan 11 2004, 06:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Jan 11 2004, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 11 2004, 03:36 PM

Ok..before we shift the issue to "my intent"...why don't you give the thread a shot?  Where are all the remains/weaponry/accoutrements of those who died at the Hill Cumorah?

It's obvious. Coriantumr was just really conscientious about policing the battlefield. He cleaned everything up.

If I were interested in playing apologist, I'd just say that the letter from the Church leadership stating that the general authorities thought the Hill Cumorah was the place of the battles described in the Book of Mormon got it wrong. Heaven knows the GAs have been wrong about enough things. Better that they should accept a little scriptural-interpretation egg on their faces, then create such a huge stumbling-block for those who want to believe as the lack of evidence of a great pre-Columbian battle in upstate New York creates.

Even those who have had great evidences such as Laman and Lemuel have fallen...so evidence or the lack of it isn't the stmbling block....a hardened heart will be.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 12 2004, 04:40 AM

Well, that's rather convenient. I'm getting the feeling that is a standard answer when any kind of evidence or proof to bolster the BoM's claims is lacking:

1) It'll be revealed in the "Lord's own time" (whatever that means...a thousand years?).

2) You have to let the "Spirit" teach you.

a) You have to WANT TO KNOW that the BoM is True.

B) If you feel good while reading the BoM it is True.

c) If you feel bad while reading the BoM repeat 'a' until 'b' happens. Maybe deprive yourself of food while you're at it.

Have you ever considered that the reason why there is no bones/armor/weaponry of 100,000's of pre-columbian warriors at the Hill Cumorah is because it doesn't exist? Because the story contained in the BoM is a fabrication?

You know, if a surgeon had your attitude going into a 'life' threatening surgery, you will be dead....I'm sure.

You have to know your attitude is your stumbling block.

You act like perseverance is a wrong thing. How many times does it take for a kid to learn something at school, (unless he is a genius)....

OR someone learning to play a piano? It have to require perseverance...everything worth while does.

[Guest Starsky]

you will be dead....

Gosh I hate not being able to correct my stuff with editing!

[Paul Osborne]

I honestly don't think the Lord wants the evidence uncovered because the BofM must be received by faith and not tangible evidence. We don't need masses of faithless people joining the Church just because they find out it's true due to the evidence because they would no sooner fall away and explain the evidence away and perhaps fight against the Church.

The wicked Jews explained away Christ after all the evidence he laid at their feet! Many walked away from him even after they first accepted his miracles too. And with that; how do we even know there really was a Christ? Where are the nails that pieced him? I don't know where they are and even if they suddenly were found it wouldn't make any difference because Christ was crucified and a war was fought at Cumorah because God said so.

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 12 2004, 10:27 AM

I honestly don't think the Lord wants the evidence uncovered because the BofM must be received by faith and not tangible evidence. We don't need masses of faithless people joining the Church just because they find out it's true due to the evidence because they would no sooner fall away and explain the evidence away and perhaps fight against the Church.

The wicked Jews explained away Christ after all the evidence he laid at their feet! Many walked away from him even after they first accepted his miracles too. And with that; how do we even know there really was a Christ? Where are the nails that pieced him? I don't know where they are and even if they suddenly were found it wouldn't make any difference because Christ was crucified and a war was fought at Cumorah because God said so.

Paul O

Good points! Evidence, very seldom, creates true believers...

[Paul Osborne]

I've enjoyed your points too, Peace. It's good to know there are faithful people on this LDS message board. Hold to the iron rod!

Paul O

[srm]

Originally posted by srm@Jan 10 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock said

15:2 illustrates that "nearly two millions " of the Jaredites had their last great battle at the Hill Cumorah.

Then he said,

Since they died only a mere 1500-1600 years a ago (not much time archaeologically speaking) I'm sure their exacavation wouldn't be much a a problem. Why haven't we found any artifacts yet?

He is trying to create a problem by combining 2 events that were thousands od years apart.

Well, wasn't the Hill Cumorah there when the Jaredites fought?

In you statement you said they (referring to the Jaredites) died only a mere 1500-1600 years ago. This is incorrect and you should admit that you were wrong or being desceptive.

Nevertheless, since you don't want to suppose that the remains of millions of warriors would be located at the Hill Cumorah...where then are the remains/weapns/accoutrements of hundreds of thousands of Pre-Colombian warriors?  Where?  WHERE!?!??!

I didn't say what I did or didn't not want to supose. I was pointing out a major flaw in your post.

Please address this one issue.

OK, but first please address the other bombs you'ver dropped...for instance the red hering of James Moholland.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 12 2004, 10:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 12 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Jan 11 2004, 06:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 11 2004, 03:36 PM

Ok..before we shift the issue to "my intent"...why don't you give the thread a shot?  Where are all the remains/weaponry/accoutrements of those who died at the Hill Cumorah?

It's obvious. Coriantumr was just really conscientious about policing the battlefield. He cleaned everything up.

If I were interested in playing apologist, I'd just say that the letter from the Church leadership stating that the general authorities thought the Hill Cumorah was the place of the battles described in the Book of Mormon got it wrong. Heaven knows the GAs have been wrong about enough things. Better that they should accept a little scriptural-interpretation egg on their faces, then create such a huge stumbling-block for those who want to believe as the lack of evidence of a great pre-Columbian battle in upstate New York creates.

Even those who have had great evidences such as Laman and Lemuel have fallen...so evidence or the lack of it isn't the stmbling block....a hardened heart will be.

Yes, but the Book of Mormon, according to its title page, was written "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST." The Book of Mormon is trying to persuade us of something. If all we had to do was to have faith, we could have faith directly in Christ, without needing to be "convinced" by the Book of Mormon.

Church leaders routinely appeal to logic and reason as arguments for the Church's truth and authority -- pointing to the health benefits of the Word of Wisdom, supposedly unknown at the time the revelation was given, as evidence that it must have come by inspiration, or borrowing from apologists' arguments about the structure of the Book of Mormon to argue that Joseph Smith couldn't possibly have written the Book of Mormon itself.

You can't have it both ways: either the Book of Mormon is to be established by "faith" alone, or it can be established by evidence. It's not fair to use logic to support a point, and then forbid counterarguments based on logic.

I put "faith" in quotes, because I believe faith is a means of acquiring knowledge that only should be applied where diligent, honest study is incapable, by its very nature, of providing evidence one way or the other. Unless one has had a personal vision of God, his existence has to be taken on faith, for example. A person's statement that he received a divine revelation, without more, would also probably have to be taken on faith -- although circumstances (like the presence of witnesses or an inconsistent account of the revelation) could provide evidence for or against.

Faith comes into the equation where you conclude there's insufficient evidence for an informed decision, and yet you believe that a decision is necessary. In the Mormon understanding, after a person exercises faith to make a decision, and the decision is correct, there come spiritual confirmations of its truth.

Things get trickier in a situation when a person has made a decision based on faith (having originally had too little evidence to make an informed decision on a question that demanded an immediate choice), and has felt the Spirit, or what he understands to be the Spirit, confirming the decision -- and then obtains further information that contradicts the decision, and in fact would ordinarily have been enough to convince him. The person's choice is then to (1) take the position compelled by the new evidence, concluding that he was mistaken to conclude that the Spirit was confirming what he thought it was, or (2) put the new evidence in abeyance, waiting for still further information.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 12 2004, 04:40 AM

Well, that's rather convenient. I'm getting the feeling that is a standard answer when any kind of evidence or proof to bolster the BoM's claims is lacking:

1) It'll be revealed in the "Lord's own time" (whatever that means...a thousand years?).

2) You have to let the "Spirit" teach you.

a) You have to WANT TO KNOW that the BoM is True.

B) If you feel good while reading the BoM it is True.

c) If you feel bad while reading the BoM repeat 'a' until 'b' happens. Maybe deprive yourself of food while you're at it.

Have you ever considered that the reason why there is no bones/armor/weaponry of 100,000's of pre-columbian warriors at the Hill Cumorah is because it doesn't exist? Because the story contained in the BoM is a fabrication?

Which moderator inserted the little smiley face and accompanying statement in my thread? I think that was unethical and dishonest.

[Guest antishock82003]

PD,

1) Please don't respond to this post.

2) Your last post was, yet once again, a perfect example of why I respect you and your reasons for staying in the faith you've chosen. I've never really seen you shy away from the stickier aspects of your faith, and the things that really can't be reconciled. You also for let the absurdities be what they are all the while trying to balance the obvious with the subtle things that keep you in your faith. You practice a rational theology that would make John A. Widstoe enviable.

3) Thank you for not getting petty. You set an example for us all.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Jan 12 2004, 02:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Jan 12 2004, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 12 2004, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by -TheProudDuck@Jan 11 2004, 06:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 11 2004, 03:36 PM

Ok..before we shift the issue to "my intent"...why don't you give the thread a shot?  Where are all the remains/weaponry/accoutrements of those who died at the Hill Cumorah?

It's obvious. Coriantumr was just really conscientious about policing the battlefield. He cleaned everything up.

If I were interested in playing apologist, I'd just say that the letter from the Church leadership stating that the general authorities thought the Hill Cumorah was the place of the battles described in the Book of Mormon got it wrong. Heaven knows the GAs have been wrong about enough things. Better that they should accept a little scriptural-interpretation egg on their faces, then create such a huge stumbling-block for those who want to believe as the lack of evidence of a great pre-Columbian battle in upstate New York creates.

Even those who have had great evidences such as Laman and Lemuel have fallen...so evidence or the lack of it isn't the stmbling block....a hardened heart will be.

Yes, but the Book of Mormon, according to its title page, was written "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST." The Book of Mormon is trying to persuade us of something. If all we had to do was to have faith, we could have faith directly in Christ, without needing to be "convinced" by the Book of Mormon.

Church leaders routinely appeal to logic and reason as arguments for the Church's truth and authority -- pointing to the health benefits of the Word of Wisdom, supposedly unknown at the time the revelation was given, as evidence that it must have come by inspiration, or borrowing from apologists' arguments about the structure of the Book of Mormon to argue that Joseph Smith couldn't possibly have written the Book of Mormon itself.

You can't have it both ways: either the Book of Mormon is to be established by "faith" alone, or it can be established by evidence. It's not fair to use logic to support a point, and then forbid counterarguments based on logic.

I put "faith" in quotes, because I believe faith is a means of acquiring knowledge that only should be applied where diligent, honest study is incapable, by its very nature, of providing evidence one way or the other. Unless one has had a personal vision of God, his existence has to be taken on faith, for example. A person's statement that he received a divine revelation, without more, would also probably have to be taken on faith -- although circumstances (like the presence of witnesses or an inconsistent account of the revelation) could provide evidence for or against.

Faith comes into the equation where you conclude there's insufficient evidence for an informed decision, and yet you believe that a decision is necessary. In the Mormon understanding, after a person exercises faith to make a decision, and the decision is correct, there come spiritual confirmations of its truth.

Things get trickier in a situation when a person has made a decision based on faith (having originally had too little evidence to make an informed decision on a question that demanded an immediate choice), and has felt the Spirit, or what he understands to be the Spirit, confirming the decision -- and then obtains further information that contradicts the decision, and in fact would ordinarily have been enough to convince him. The person's choice is then to (1) take the position compelled by the new evidence, concluding that he was mistaken to conclude that the Spirit was confirming what he thought it was, or (2) put the new evidence in abeyance, waiting for still further information.

Exactly...you can't have it both ways....

You must learn that there are spiritual confirmations and then there are physical ones. Both have been established on this thread and those you don't want to accept those that are...because they want what isn't...isn't going to get anything from this discussion.

There are plates which show this type of historical record keeping was done...JS did his translation and story before these physical evidences were available.

That alone should give you pause. But no...you want this or that...like we are your parents at a super market and you want to fill the basket full of your 'childlike' things.

Get real will you. Most of the Saints who went through hell didn't even have this physical evidence...they received the spiritual confirmations and that was what gave them strength.

There will be new discoveries more and more...until all is revealed, but they aren't going to be dished out on demand. God has never operated on that level and He never will.

So why should we here at this forum?

[Guest Starsky]

Also PD,

What you are trying to say is that what the 'today' leaders have taught are being proven to not be completely honest and many have based their faith 'erringly' upon their words and what they thought was the spiritual confirmation of truth.

This is where the difference between 'emotional' swelling, and 'spiritual' power cause people who don't know the difference a big problem.

The emotional feelings can and do mislead. It is absolutely necessary that members and non-members alike understand the difference.

I guess this is why I consider myself very fortunate. I had very little emotional experiences....because I was treated like crap most of my days in the church areana. So what I have had to depend upon was God and His Spiritual strength and guidance.

I have never leaned upon the arm of flesh...and never will. Men can and do and have let us down. But God...will always do what is best for us.