Temple Work

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+May 22 2004, 04:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ May 22 2004, 04:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -broadway@May 22 2004, 04:10 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@May 20 2004, 07:13 PM

Theoretically, if I was to do temple work for my non-Mormon parents, isn't the point to get them sealed to me in the Celestial Kingdom?

But according to LDS Doctrine:

Celestial

“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, … that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.” These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessings upon them. (See D&C 76:51-53.) Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1-4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).

Terrestrial

These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73-79.) They will not be part of eternal families; they will live separately and singly forever (see D&C 131:1-4).

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81-86, D&C 76:103-6.)

(That was from "Gospel Principles")

It sounds like if I did Temple Work for my non-Mormon family, they would end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom because they did not recieve the Gospel on earth. If that is true, what is the point of Temple Work?

no, the point in doing Temple work is to give all people the chance to accept or reject the gospel.

What I thought it was was the opportunity for all who had died previous to hearing the gospel to be baptized, etc., in case they accepted the gospel. They will hear the gospel in the prisonhouse prior to resurrection. Of course, IMO, those who accept the gospel in the prisonhouse will come forth with the resurrection of the just, prior to the millenium, and will have the chance during the millenium to be baptized, negating the need for baptism for the dead.

I have a few statements to confirm with those more knowledgable than I: (I'm not putting any one on....I simply want to clarify some assumptions, before going further):

Every LDS I have ever talked to agrees that the CK is a massively great reward. Essentially, it is kingdoms, principalities and rewards that surpass anything imaginable, and that to earn anything less would be settling for something drastically different and inferior, and that one is severely limited for eternity without it. Am I right so far? YES?NO

Now, if one fails to see the logic of the LDS church, OR never gets any feeling or "revelation" telling him in a clear and convincing way to join the LDS church (inspite of sincere efforts at reading and study----and don't bother to tell me that God always gives it to you---I have known plenty of people who were prayerful about it all, and never go any feeling that convinces them to join the LDS) and do all the stuff that LDS say you need to to earn the CK, then one never gets to go to the CK right? (Also, we can infer that even if you accept the LDS culture in the hearafter, being in the hearafter provides no more convincing evidence for the truth of the LDS way than being on earth---since that would give the dead an unfair advantage over us earthbound types in getting to the CK. Nevertheless, there is one group that the LDS believe DO have an advantage----children under 8--they never have to find out whether they would have rejected the LDS way) I'm I still correct?

Lastly, the effort one has to make in obtaining the CK bears almost NO relationship to the magnitude of the reward earned. Am I wrong?

[broadway]

Originally posted by Cal@May 22 2004, 06:58 PM

I have a few statements to confirm with those more knowledgable than I: (I'm not putting any one on....I simply want to clarify some assumptions, before going further):

Every LDS I have ever talked to agrees that the CK is a massively great reward. Essentially, it is kingdoms, principalities and rewards that surpass anything imaginable, and that to earn anything less would be settling for something drastically different and inferior, and that one is severely limited for eternity without it. Am I right so far?  YES?NO

Now, if one fails to see the logic of the LDS church, OR never gets any feeling or "revelation" telling him in a clear and convincing way to join the LDS church (inspite of sincere efforts at reading and study----and don't bother to tell me that God always gives it to you---I have known plenty of people who were prayerful about it all, and never go any feeling that convinces them to join the LDS) and do all the stuff that LDS say you need to to earn the CK, then one never gets to go to the CK right? (Also, we can infer that even if you accept the LDS culture in the hearafter, being in the hearafter provides no more convincing evidence for the truth of the LDS way than being on earth---since that would give the dead an unfair advantage over us earthbound types in getting to the CK. Nevertheless, there is one group that the LDS believe DO have an advantage----children under 8--they never have to find out whether they would have rejected the LDS way) I'm I still correct?

Lastly, the effort one has to make in obtaining the CK bears almost NO relationship to the magnitude of the reward earned. Am I wrong?

1) In anutshell, I would say yes, the CK is all you say it is, and NO anything less would not leave one feeling severly limited for eternity (I re-worded your statement a little to answer the question I think you were really asking)

2)God is the God of thoughts and intentions, not just the actions. He knows if we have truely sought out the Spirit. This goes for those a part of the LDS Church and those not.

It is very possible that those who were never part of the LDS church to be a part of the CK. I do not know much about this. It is something special and not just for everyone....sorry that I cannot remember this. I will ask around and get more info on this (unless someone here knows a little more about what I am referring to)

It is my belief that one dies with the same spirit one lived with. If you were given the oppurtunity while on earth to accept the gospel, and died, you will remain skeptical of the gospel. (The gospel means what you read of in scriptures....the name 'Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' will not be in the gospel at all, neither will the word "Mormons". One is accepting the gospel, not the church, so to speak)

Yes, those who are not at the stage of accountability will not be held accountable. This goes for those below the age of eight and those who are not capable otherwise to understand the gospel.

3) I am not sure I understand your last one, but I think you are trying to point out that since the reward of CK is so unimaginable that the hardship of the road to gaining that reward could not compare to the greatness of the reward, right? Pending that being the question, then I would say yes. This goes for ALL the kingdoms. That is what the atonement is all about....grace and mercy. One cannot 'earn' one's way into heaven. One has to accept the gift that God gave us all....Jesus's atonement. Then and only then can one make it into the CK. But, as the scriptures say "faith without works is dead". If one truely loved God and had faith in Him and accepted His free gift, one would want to follow His commandments.

Likewise, the other two kingdoms are very wonderful as well (as you probably already know). The other two kindgoms do not even require an acceptance of His gift. In fact, the only thing required of us is that we do not blaspheme against the Holy Ghost (that is to say that we do not deny having a special revelation of Him or something as serious). Liars, Murderers, Adulterers will all reside in a very wonderful existance much better than what we live in now. They kept their first estate, therefore get some sort of reward. This reward is not given without some pain, though. These people will know what they have done and could have done and will feel sorrow for it. Once this time period has passed, they too can live out eternity in joy and glory.

What kind of God would be fair? I am glad He isn't. I know that I don't deserve to have the temporal blessings He gives me, not to mention any eternal ones. He set up a system that allows us to be spotless in spite of our sins. This God could never be accused of being fair. This God could only be accused of being merciful, and compassionate.

In conclusion, no...you are not wrong. The hardship of the road to glory does not compare to the greatness of the glory we recieve....regardless of which glory that might be. And thank God that is so.

broadway

[Setheus]

TS, here is what the prophet has said. ...

"1 THE heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the ccelestial kingdom of God, and the glory there of, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;

3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all achildren who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

D&C 137

[Setheus]

Now that seems to make temple work pointless since he knows their hearts and will judge doesn't it? Well, I think that this falls back on OUR obiedience to do the things which the Lord has commanded. We have been instructed to do temple work so then we must do it! This is why I agree with Snow when he said that half the temple works are for our (the living) benefit.

This life is a test....but its open book!

[Cal]

Originally posted by broadway+May 22 2004, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (broadway @ May 22 2004, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@May 22 2004, 06:58 PM

I have a few statements to confirm with those more knowledgable than I: (I'm not putting any one on....I simply want to clarify some assumptions, before going further):

Every LDS I have ever talked to agrees that the CK is a massively great reward. Essentially, it is kingdoms, principalities and rewards that surpass anything imaginable, and that to earn anything less would be settling for something drastically different and inferior, and that one is severely limited for eternity without it. Am I right so far?  YES?NO

Now, if one fails to see the logic of the LDS church, OR never gets any feeling or "revelation" telling him in a clear and convincing way to join the LDS church (inspite of sincere efforts at reading and study----and don't bother to tell me that God always gives it to you---I have known plenty of people who were prayerful about it all, and never go any feeling that convinces them to join the LDS) and do all the stuff that LDS say you need to to earn the CK, then one never gets to go to the CK right? (Also, we can infer that even if you accept the LDS culture in the hearafter, being in the hearafter provides no more convincing evidence for the truth of the LDS way than being on earth---since that would give the dead an unfair advantage over us earthbound types in getting to the CK. Nevertheless, there is one group that the LDS believe DO have an advantage----children under 8--they never have to find out whether they would have rejected the LDS way) I'm I still correct?

Lastly, the effort one has to make in obtaining the CK bears almost NO relationship to the magnitude of the reward earned. Am I wrong?

1) In anutshell, I would say yes, the CK is all you say it is, and NO anything less would not leave one feeling severly limited for eternity (I re-worded your statement a little to answer the question I think you were really asking)

2)God is the God of thoughts and intentions, not just the actions. He knows if we have truely sought out the Spirit. This goes for those a part of the LDS Church and those not.

It is very possible that those who were never part of the LDS church to be a part of the CK. I do not know much about this. It is something special and not just for everyone....sorry that I cannot remember this. I will ask around and get more info on this (unless someone here knows a little more about what I am referring to)

It is my belief that one dies with the same spirit one lived with. If you were given the oppurtunity while on earth to accept the gospel, and died, you will remain skeptical of the gospel. (The gospel means what you read of in scriptures....the name 'Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' will not be in the gospel at all, neither will the word "Mormons". One is accepting the gospel, not the church, so to speak)

Yes, those who are not at the stage of accountability will not be held accountable. This goes for those below the age of eight and those who are not capable otherwise to understand the gospel.

3) I am not sure I understand your last one, but I think you are trying to point out that since the reward of CK is so unimaginable that the hardship of the road to gaining that reward could not compare to the greatness of the reward, right? Pending that being the question, then I would say yes. This goes for ALL the kingdoms. That is what the atonement is all about....grace and mercy. One cannot 'earn' one's way into heaven. One has to accept the gift that God gave us all....Jesus's atonement. Then and only then can one make it into the CK. But, as the scriptures say "faith without works is dead". If one truely loved God and had faith in Him and accepted His free gift, one would want to follow His commandments.

Likewise, the other two kingdoms are very wonderful as well (as you probably already know). The other two kindgoms do not even require an acceptance of His gift. In fact, the only thing required of us is that we do not blaspheme against the Holy Ghost (that is to say that we do not deny having a special revelation of Him or something as serious). Liars, Murderers, Adulterers will all reside in a very wonderful existance much better than what we live in now. They kept their first estate, therefore get some sort of reward. This reward is not given without some pain, though. These people will know what they have done and could have done and will feel sorrow for it. Once this time period has passed, they too can live out eternity in joy and glory.

What kind of God would be fair? I am glad He isn't. I know that I don't deserve to have the temporal blessings He gives me, not to mention any eternal ones. He set up a system that allows us to be spotless in spite of our sins. This God could never be accused of being fair. This God could only be accused of being merciful, and compassionate.

In conclusion, no...you are not wrong. The hardship of the road to glory does not compare to the greatness of the glory we recieve....regardless of which glory that might be. And thank God that is so.

broadway

BROADWAY--thank you for your response. However, inspite of your affirmation that we can't actually "earn" a place in the hereafter in the sense that anything we do would actually MERIT any of that reward, you still seem to be saying that we actually DO have to earn it, because we lose it if we don't behave according to mormon doctrine. What is the difference?

By the way, I don't think what you have said about the Grace of God and his not being "fair" makes much sense if you also believe in LDS doctrine. The LDS definitely believe that you have to earn your way to the CK. You have to refrain from all kinds of things and perform all sorts of acts that, in and of themselves, don't even have much of a LOGICAL connection to accepting Jesus as your savior. (IE--not drinking wine, getting married in a temple). One can accept the GIFT of atonement of Jesus and still not have developed the self discipline to live like the LDS say you have to, AND one can accept Jesus without believing that the LDS have all the answers. So, how does your philosophy relate to LDS doctrine and practice?

Also, I have a great deal of difficulty with your view of God that is he is NOT fair. Especially when the LDS imply that we all have to meet the same standards for entering the CK--you have to be baptized, marry in the temple (which requires a whole subset of required behaviors), and "endure to the end" --which LDS believe means continually attending their church, paying their tithing etc. The "unfair" God theory of yours also contradicts statements in the BoM which say, I paraphrase, "all are alike unto God, male and female.....", and "God is no respecter of persons". IF he plays no favorites, then how can the LDS believe that some people are placed in situations that virtually guarantee that they won't earn the celestial kingdom, and others are virtually given the CK by simply dying before the age of 8.

Also--how can a "fair and just" God, which the LDS believe in, base admission to the CK on accepting the LDS as inspired and from God, when the evidence is strong that much of what LDS prophets have taught, in areas where they CAN be proven wrong, are indeed wrong. Example: JS taught that Native americans of the american frontier were Hebrew and claimed to receive that knowledge from an angel of God.(He can't get out of it by claiming it was just his opinion, unless it was also "just an opinion" that he actually conversed with an angel--in which case he loses ALL credibility, if he hasn't already) Blacks denied priesthood (a contradiction in to every sense of justice imaginable), changing doctrines--polygamy first requried for enterance into CK , and now it is not. JS lying to conceal fact of polygamy. These are all facts that can reasonably put any honest person on notice as to JS's or the LDS's crediblity.

The POINT: We LDS seem to be saying to the rest of the world that unless you accept JS as credible, you can't get into the CK. (That is, unless you accept JS as credible, there is no point in doing all the "earning" stuff the LDS require) Is this what God expects? I have a very difficult time believing that ONLY us LDS are going to inherit the best God has to offer (whether or not they believe JS) , especially, when I have to admit that I can not blame my non-, or former LDS for finding JS less than completely credible. Would a just God condition his blessings on going against our sense of logic and reason, and accepting something that has serious crediblitiy problems. Can one be expected to abandon his sense of truth, in favor of non-credible claims. Can I blame non-LDS for not having a testimony of JS's crediblity when I can see the cracks in his crediblity myself (Native american tribes are of Hebrew origin--said it came from conversations with angel Moroni--can't just claim it was his opinion) Also, denying Priesthood to blacks, changing requirements for CK--first polygamy required, then not. These are just a few of the credibilty problems.

Yes, if these crediblity problems were absent---doctrines consistent, and JS not proven wrong, then one could justify "punishing" people for not bothering to "pray" about it. But to insist that they believe anyway, is unreasonable, and somewhat unjust. It just doesn't make any sense to exclude people from God's blessing for not believing what is not really believeable on its face.) (Saying that God is "testing" us to see if we will believe in the otherwise unbelievable, is not rational--I reduces our existance to "dog obedience school"-- an insulting assertion.

Now if you are a believing LDS, and don't really care whether JS was credible or not, and like your ward, and culture, this stuff probably doesn't matter to you----but it is another matter to insist that OTHER people should be expected to believe it or suffer the consequence of having an inferior status for eternity. That is not in the nature of a God I can believe in.

I have no final answers to these conundrums for us LDS, but I do feel the need to express them if I'm not going to lie to myself. If Jesus gave us any example at all, it was to be true to one's sense of truth and credibility, without that, what are we?

[Ray]

Even if people limit themselves to the scriptures in the Bible, they can find plenty of scriptures teaching that we are all accountable for our actions. Here are 2 of them:

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. – Revelation 20:12

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. – 2 Corinthians 5:10

The grace we receive from God comes through the atonement of Christ, in that Christ paid a debt that we would never have been able to pay ourselves. There was and never will be anything we can do to deserve the atonement that Christ offered for us, and for that, we will be eternally in debt to Christ.

There are things that we do have control over, however, and these “works” include manifesting Faith in Jesus as the Christ and Repenting of our sins. If we don’t do those things, it will be because we chose not to do them, and we will be without excuse once we stand before God to give an account for the way we lived our lives.

Our future is now in our hands, because God has already done and will continue to do everything He can to help us live a productive and meaningful life.