Law of Chastity

[Mahonri]

Having been there, done that and got the T-shirt, Bishop's love the members.

But we must remember one of their most important duties.

"The bishop (or stake president) is to be a judge in Israel, to do the business of the church, to sit in judgment upon transgressors upon testimony as it shall be laid before him according to the laws, by the assistance of his counselors, whom he has chosen or will choose among the elders of the church.

"This is the duty of a bishop....

"Thus shall he be a judge, even a common judge among the inhabitants of Zion" (D&C 107:72-74).

I'd say it's mighty difficult in some circumstances to separate the sin from the sinner but in most instances it's possible.

Discipline is given to members, not to the sin, but as has been stated, it is given in love.

Pres. James E. Faust once taugt me that there is only One True Advocate that each of us has and that is Jesus Christ. Bishops and Stake President's must meet out righteous judgment.

[Guest Breezy]

I was going to reply to this with details but I can see it turning into something that will evolve into a squabble as each person defends their position. I dont want to do that. My experience was an ugly one and I have no wish to spread that ugliness here. Suffice it to say there are good and not so good people of all kinds in all positions who make mistakes and harm others . I can not believe all people are evil any more than I can believe all people are perfect.What I can believe is that everyone is flawed and that most people are mostly good. I would like to believe that sins can be forgiven and that sinners can be too

[USNationalist]

...Maybe I will have to put this another way to get you people to understand. All Flesh is evil. We are all creatures of the flesh, and our spirit contends against it. Sinful acts are what comes natural to all man. That is why sin must be resisted. By nature all men are evil (not good).

This people are inherently good rhetoric is ridiculous liberal hippy garbage. Nothing has ever been farther from the truth. We are a condemned people from birth- that is why Christ had to die- to save us from the condemnation that comes from our own nature.

Also- it is obvious that several of you are on the defensive over having your flawed conceptions (regarding the nature of man) attacked, and are going over board with that defense. You are trying link my arguments to other arguments that I have not made and trying to lump them together. I have not said a word on how church discipline should be handled, I only stated the reason and target for it. Nothing I have said implies any lack of compassion or otherwise "loving intent" when church discipline must be exercised effectively.

[WillowTheWhisp]

All flesh is evil? Is that Biblical? I know the Catholic church talks about 'original sin' and that we are all born in sin due to the fall of Adam and Eve. There seems to be some sort of implication that sexual intercourse in order to produce offspring is an evil act of sin but how can that be when it was God who commanded them to go forth and multiply and replenish the earth?

I know Paul said all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God but I don't recall even him going so far as saying all people are evil.

We all sin to some degree or other yes, because we are far from perfect but most of us know when we have done wrong because we get that pang of conscience. How could that be if we were evil? Surely if we were evil we would have no conscience.

Jesus did not condemn the sinner. He condemned the sin. A person can be forgiven for that sin if they repent. If we were evil then how could we be forgiven? Where would be the purpose of repentance? Would we even feel a desire to repent if we were evil?

[USNationalist]

The sinner is condemned because of the sin.

Christianity is not in the business of dishing out punishment per sin (unless you are catholic). Punishing someone for sin is a ridiculous notion. Church punishment is strictly for use against unrepentant individuals. It is their heart being judged, their refusal to humble themselves and submit to Gods authority is why they are punished. Not the act of the sin.

Of course all flesh is evil. Works are the manifestations of the core. The Works of the flesh (see Pauls writings in galations) are bad. Our Spirit is in constant contention with our flesh.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Church punishment? I've always been led to believe that 'punishment' as such was not on the agenda but that evenexcommunication was regarded as a means of encouraging repentance and return to full fellowship and rrelationship with Heavenly Father. Isn't that what repentance is all about?

[ztodd]

The sinner is condemned because of the sin.

Christianity is not in the business of dishing out punishment per sin (unless you are catholic). Punishing someone for sin is a ridiculous notion. Church punishment is strictly for use against unrepentant individuals. It is their heart being judged, their refusal to humble themselves and submit to Gods authority is why they are punished. Not the act of the sin.

Of course all flesh is evil. Works are the manifestations of the core. The Works of the flesh (see Pauls writings in galations) are bad. Our Spirit is in constant contention with our flesh.

In other words,

the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Do you agree with this? Is it saying the same thing?

[the_jason]

I have to say that recently I have run into other LDS including a Bishop who feel this same way. The harsh judgements( such as all people are evil) pronounced in regards to people who have sinned made me seriously reconsidor the reasons I have been looking into the LDS. In fact I was going to close my accounts at this site and another LDS forum for that very reason. One of the moderators here was kind enough to talk to me about it a little bit and she convinced me to stay. All people ARE NOT evil but condemning them all is in my opinion. I would like to believe that all people have value in God's eyes even those who struggle with sin and have fallen. If they are all just evil then what is the point to God and to faith?

It's important to seperate the Church from the people in the Church. People are human, and sometimes say and do dumb things. In most cases it's unintentional. Some people just aren't born with the ability to be tactful. That doesn't make the Church any less true. It only means the members are human and make mistakes.

Don't let what members say affect your testimony. If you join for the members or the missionaries or the bishop then you'd be joining for the wrong reasons. Join the church because you believe that Jesus atoned for your sins, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that the priesthood has been restored to the earth. Everything else is irrelevant.

[USNationalist]

In other words,

the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Do you agree with this? Is it saying the same thing?

Essentially. Except you can never change your natural inclination. The Flesh and spirit will be in constant conflict until one is left in the grave. All that can change is which one has the greatest level of dominance over the other.

[USNationalist]

Church punishment? I've always been led to believe that 'punishment' as such was not on the agenda but that evenexcommunication was regarded as a means of encouraging repentance and return to full fellowship and rrelationship with Heavenly Father. Isn't that what repentance is all about?

Obviously if Church Punishment is not used with the explicit intent of encouraging repentance then it is worthless. The Church has no authority to harm or imprison anyone, so punishment for punishments sake alone is impotent. Church Discipline addresses two areas. One: By separating individuals, who fail to live up to the standards of the faith, from the church it washes its hands of their actions. Due to the failure of most all churches to exercise this discipline, the image of the church is sullied. Which is harmful to the cause of the great commission- making it among the worst wrongs that can be committed. Two: Because people who are Christians by title only still receive acceptance in the church, they will have little to no inclination to legitimize their faith. By failing to act, the church essentially gives the impression that their current lifestyle is acceptable and sufficient for their salvation. Which can lead to the condemnation of an individual due, in part, to the churches inaction- which is another very serious wrong.

[WillowTheWhisp]

By separating individuals, who fail to live up to the standards of the faith, from the church it washes its hands of their actions.

But in my experience the Church has not seperated those individuals, even those who have been excommunicated. They are not able to partake of Sacrament or participate in lessons or hold callings but they are encouraged to attend church and to fully repent and change their ways so that they can be rebaptised and receive their blessings once more.

I have seen the sinners themselves react differently to this. One person I know accepted the discipline, kept coming to church and is now fully active and temple worthy once more. Another person took the 'ump and has only ever set foot in church once since being excommunicated then was never seen again.

The Church has never washed its hands of people in my experience but has condemned the sin whilst still continuing to show love for the sinner.

[USNationalist]

But in my experience the Church has not seperated those individuals, even those who have been excommunicated.

-"Due to the failure of most all churches to exercise this discipline, the image of the church is sullied."

There is no point in condemning sin and not the sinner. The sinner is the one who willingly chooses to sin. Sin has no control over anything- the problem is with the person, not the act. The sinner is condemned because he sins. Sin is not some creature that controls our actions.

The bible addresses the issue (Paul does), it isn't just a straight to "dont come to church anymore". There is progression in church discipline, and only when all avenues fail should a person be cut off from the church until such time as they have made sufficient change- and the church should welcome them back.

1Cor 5:9ish-13ish (the first part of that chunk of verse I think) talks about putting away the immoral "brother".

[checkerboy]

US are you even a member of the church. Cause your statements aren't very in line with the teachings of the church regarding excommunication and repentance, let alone the nature of man.

[aranyborju]

It is my experience that the church is more worried about covering up sin, than the sin itself. We will all sin from time to time, but how we react to our mistakes shows our true character. Generally when someone (or two people) have made a mistake, and immediately tell their bishop and show real remorse, the "punishment" can be as small as a priesthood blessing and regular interviews to check progress.

However, if the bishop finds out that a transgression has occured, and has to confront the transgressor himself, then this is a sign that a sincere desire to repent has not yet been attained, and disfellowshipment, or other restrictions may be necessary.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yes of course the sinner is responsible for having committed the sin but that same sinner may very well have done many other good and praiseworthy things. It is not the whole person (including all the good things in their life) which is the problem. The problem is the one sin which they have committed.

It's similar to people posting on a message board. Someone may have one point of view on one subject which I disagree with but to ignore everything else that person said, even things that I agree with, without taking each on it's own merit would be foolish and naive.

[USNationalist]

US are you even a member of the church. Cause your statements aren't very in line with the teachings of the church regarding excommunication and repentance, let alone the nature of man.

I am not a mormon. My statements regarding the nature of man however are completely accurate. Both logically and Biblically. My statements regarding church discipline are also biblically accurate.

[USNationalist]

Yes of course the sinner is responsible for having committed the sin but that same sinner may very well have done many other good and praiseworthy things. It is not the whole person (including all the good things in their life) which is the problem. The problem is the one sin which they have committed.

It's similar to people posting on a message board. Someone may have one point of view on one subject which I disagree with but to ignore everything else that person said, even things that I agree with, without taking each on it's own merit would be foolish and naive.

What Good or bad things you do- have zero bearing on the status of your salvation. At least no as far as tallying up good and bad and seeing which you have more of. Actions mean nothing. You dont get points for doing good, you dont get negative points for doing bad. Works are merely the outward manifestation of what is inside us. So you cant dismiss 1 bad deed because someone had 10 good deeds.

If I do a million good things- and only 1 bad thing, but I refuse to repent for that bad thing- my salvation is forfeit. Likewise If i do 10 good things and 6 bad things- but am repenting an actively trying to improve myself and create change in my life- then The Grace of God covers those sin.

Punishment is ONLY for people who refuse to turn away from what they are doing wrong. If someone repents- there is no punishment, regardless of the sin. If someone is repentant, then it is the Churches job to provide what assistance it can to the individual to help them keep from making those same errors.

[momofmany12]

wow..all I ment to say is it is all done with love and compation. The Bishops role is to bring back into the fold. I am sorry I started a whole debate and uproar. That was not my intention. All I wanted to so was suport the OP.

[momofmany12]

What Good or bad things you do- have zero bearing on the status of your salvation. At least no as far as tallying up good and bad and seeing which you have more of. Actions mean nothing. You dont get points for doing good, you dont get negative points for doing bad. Works are merely the outward manifestation of what is inside us. So you cant dismiss 1 bad deed because someone had 10 good deeds.

If I do a million good things- and only 1 bad thing, but I refuse to repent for that bad thing- my salvation is forfeit. Likewise If i do 10 good things and 6 bad things- but am repenting an actively trying to improve myself and create change in my life- then The Grace of God covers those sin.

Punishment is ONLY for people who refuse to turn away from what they are doing wrong. If someone repents- there is no punishment, regardless of the sin. If someone is repentant, then it is the Churches job to provide what assistance it can to the individual to help them keep from making those same errors.

I disagree with you because in the scriptures we are taught if we bring one soul to the Gospel it will Hide multiple sins. Right now I don't have the time to reference my response but I will if I need to later. Have you read "The Miracle of Forgiveness" If not you should because it is a wonderful book.

[WillowTheWhisp]

What Good or bad things you do- have zero bearing on the status of your salvation. At least no as far as tallying up good and bad and seeing which you have more of. Actions mean nothing. You dont get points for doing good, you dont get negative points for doing bad. Works are merely the outward manifestation of what is inside us. So you cant dismiss 1 bad deed because someone had 10 good deeds.

If I do a million good things- and only 1 bad thing, but I refuse to repent for that bad thing- my salvation is forfeit. Likewise If i do 10 good things and 6 bad things- but am repenting an actively trying to improve myself and create change in my life- then The Grace of God covers those sin.

Punishment is ONLY for people who refuse to turn away from what they are doing wrong. If someone repents- there is no punishment, regardless of the sin. If someone is repentant, then it is the Churches job to provide what assistance it can to the individual to help them keep from making those same errors.

I think we actually agree with each other but don't explain it the same way. Yes doing one bad thing that you don't repent of does cut you off from Heavenly Father. But doing one bad thing doesn't make the whole person bad. For a Biblical example of what I'm trying to say look at King David. He committed a sin when he lusted after Bathsheba but that didn't make him wicked by which I mean it didn't negate his past. The acts which he did in order to have what he wanted were wicked, but the good things he did ( the Goliath stuff for one example) were not dismissed because of that. He was not evil. The thing he did was evil and he was able to repent and move away from that. If a sin made the person themselves evil then there would be no purpose in repentance.

[Guest AutumnBreez]

Take the necessary steps and don't get bitter at any parts you don't like in the process. Sometimes in the remedy the medicine may seem yuk (difficult) in your opinion, but it's healing properties are amazing!!!

I have been through the process. I waited too long to get back because I would not take the medicine correctly, then I found myself searching in exhaustion, I finally broke down- I went through the process, and it has healed me, wished I had not been so hard headed all that time I could have had joy all that time, as I do now.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ made a plan, we were part of that plan- don't forget that. You can get back on the right path with hard work. It was meant for you to obtain. Take care, AutumnBreez