Answering the "free choice" question from a teen.

[a-train]

I think this all comes full circle back to Kona. I don't know what was said, or what happened. But it's a dangerous thing to control what people say. Is that not limiting freedom?

Isn't it ironic that the obstruction of free speech was executed in a thread about agency?

sj, I can't agree with you more. It is LDS doctrine, it is a commandment of the LORD, that we are not to engage in the satanic endeavor to compel others to do right. We are strongly cautioned about the dangers of unrighteous dominion. Ostracization within the LDS Church is forbidden PERIOD. There is no exception to this rule.

Whether a member or not, whether worthy of a temple recommend or not, there is no case wherein ostracization is acceptable.

-a-train

[USNationalist]

Im trying desperately to pick the right words here to try to explain my position. Bringing the topic back round to how it was originally opened regarding the questionning of free agency. Again Im not a Mormon (though am considering).

Im not too well versed on the subject myself, but we see the lack of freedom in society in general with a certain expectation to behave or to look a certain way. Have you ever been picked up at work for not shaving and having a days worth of stubble?

I guess the same question applies to religion. If the OP's son chooses to deny the religion and choose another path, will he be ostracised for his opinion? Is there an expectation for him to be a Mormon?

I've seen statements by many ex-mormons who have heard the usual talk. If they've been questionning, then they have the spirit of contention which is of the devil. They feel guilty about it. If they choose not to accept the faith, then, they're following the wrong path.

I personally believe the real choices, isn't when you're expected to follow a path, when you have an invisible rope around your neck pulling you in a direction. I don't believe the real choice is when you're made to feel guilty, or bad about your actions should you not choose the right path.

I don't want to hear opinions of how Im a closet alcoholic and being led astray by the devil and there's something inherently wrong with me NOT to follow someones opinion. I want to hear how great the church is, what it does for people, how it would make me feel. I think the real choice is when you have no rope around your neck, when you're given the information you seek and you follow your own heart. Not someone elses.

I think this all comes full circle back to Kona. I don't know what was said, or what happened. But it's a dangerous thing to control what people say. Is that not limiting freedom?

Sounds like you want to pick a faith that works for you. Not humble yourself and serve a God.

And Following your heart- is the worst idea anyone has ever come up with. And I hate how it is the all popular solution for lives problems. It is a ridiculous notion- and no good comes from it.

[sjdean]

Sounds like you want to pick a faith that works for you. Not humble yourself and serve a God.

And Following your heart- is the worst idea anyone has ever come up with. And I hate how it is the all popular solution for lives problems. It is a ridiculous notion- and no good comes from it.

Total massive objection there to anything I have to say there. Almost like the "questionning is the worst thing you can do, that's the spirit of contention from the devil that is".

I presume you're LDS and you personally believe anything outside of LDS is wrong how can anyone possibly be contemplated? Do you struggle with the concept that other faiths have perhaps just as much courage and strength in their faith?

If following your heart is a bad idea, why do the LDS talk about the burning of the bosom and things feeling good? Is that therefore a bad thing that no good can come from it?

And why not pick a faith that works for me? I was never born into the church, so I cannot blindly follow its precepts. I wasn't aware of it for 20 odd years of my life. Do you think I shouldn't read the bible, study the religions and follow the path that I believe God is guiding me in?

If God told me to join the Church of XYZ, even if I didn't fully agree with it, I would follow its precepts completely.

But as it is, I havent.

But as I contemplated on another thread, perhaps all the religions that lead to God are correct. But God has given us different gifts in life and as such, we need different religions to get the most out of us. Perhaps we're given what we need as we need it.

Im not about to second guess what Gods plan is for me. Perhaps for me, Quakerism is the path I must choose, and Mormonism introduced me to him. Or perhaps Mormonism is the path i will choose but there will be religions along the way to "train me" so to speak. Who knows.

[a-train]

sjdean,

Let me appologize in behalf of those who for what ever reason sound as though they stand for everything opposite to the truth. Indeed the scriptures teach us to follow personal revelation from God with faith.

USNationalist,

Are you serious? Following your heart- is the worst idea anyone has ever come up with? This is sarcasm right?

'Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.' (D&C 8:2)

It is the testimony of all prophets from the beginning that man must come unto Christ with all humility and learn of Him directly by personal revelation. The scriptures are replete with the notion.

-a-train

[sjdean]

Isn't it ironic that the obstruction of free speech was executed in a thread about agency?

sj, I can't agree with you more. It is LDS doctrine, it is a commandment of the LORD, that we are not to engage in the satanic endeavor to compel others to do right.

Should there be a comma after endeavor? :-)

We are strongly cautioned about the dangers of unrighteous dominion. Ostracization within the LDS Church is forbidden PERIOD. There is no exception to this rule.

Whether a member or not, whether worthy of a temple recommend or not, there is no case wherein ostracization is acceptable.

-a-train

Perhaps ostracization was a word too harshly used by me. I think all Im trying to say is that I've heard stories of people who have fallen away from the church for whatever reason, and in so doing, have lost their friends and their colleagues.

I've heard stories of people questionning why in the temple, the event order of creationism was changed and I think the way the story went, her belief, commitment, conduct, studies, understanding etc was thrown into question. Basically sounding like a "my way or the highway" kind of thing.

I have no idea if its true, but it sounds kind of troubling to me.

[sjdean]

sjdean,

Let me appologize in behalf of those who for what ever reason sound as though they stand for everything opposite to the truth. Indeed the scriptures teach us to follow personal revelation from God with faith.

USNationalist,

Are you serious? Following your heart- is the worst idea anyone has ever come up with? This is sarcasm right?

'Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.' (D&C 8:2)

It is the testimony of all prophets from the beginning that man must come unto Christ with all humility and learn of Him directly by personal revelation. The scriptures are replete with the notion.

-a-train

No apology necessary a-train, but thank you none the less. It's to be expected from time to time, disagreements every now and again. Whether its a language barrier, or badly written words (usually on my behalf) :-)

Personally I welcome it, because it opens up a huge great bit dialogue, if constructively written. Certainly I've had a few questions, and the great people here have really helped with my questions and its caused me to look at things very differently.

It's fascinating, and also quite scary at times, to see the different faces and different interpretation people place upon their religions. Which one's telling the truth?

[USNationalist]

Total massive objection there to anything I have to say there. Almost like the "questionning is the worst thing you can do, that's the spirit of contention from the devil that is".

I presume you're LDS and you personally believe anything outside of LDS is wrong how can anyone possibly be contemplated? Do you struggle with the concept that other faiths have perhaps just as much courage and strength in their faith?

If following your heart is a bad idea, why do the LDS talk about the burning of the bosom and things feeling good? Is that therefore a bad thing that no good can come from it?

And why not pick a faith that works for me? I was never born into the church, so I cannot blindly follow its precepts. I wasn't aware of it for 20 odd years of my life. Do you think I shouldn't read the bible, study the religions and follow the path that I believe God is guiding me in?

If God told me to join the Church of XYZ, even if I didn't fully agree with it, I would follow its precepts completely.

But as it is, I havent.

But as I contemplated on another thread, perhaps all the religions that lead to God are correct. But God has given us different gifts in life and as such, we need different religions to get the most out of us. Perhaps we're given what we need as we need it.

Im not about to second guess what Gods plan is for me. Perhaps for me, Quakerism is the path I must choose, and Mormonism introduced me to him. Or perhaps Mormonism is the path i will choose but there will be religions along the way to "train me" so to speak. Who knows.

No, I am not LDS.

LDS claims for burning of the bousums have nothing to do with the heart. It is a claim of the working of the holy spirit. Too many people confuse them for each other and slap gods approval onto things that he is against.

Picking a religion is not a hobby. Or a shoe store and you're trying to find one that fits for you. It is about taking up a cross- and changing who you are.

[USNationalist]

sjdean,

Let me appologize in behalf of those who for what ever reason sound as though they stand for everything opposite to the truth. Indeed the scriptures teach us to follow personal revelation from God with faith.

USNationalist,

Are you serious? Following your heart- is the worst idea anyone has ever come up with? This is sarcasm right?

'Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.' (D&C 8:2)

It is the testimony of all prophets from the beginning that man must come unto Christ with all humility and learn of Him directly by personal revelation. The scriptures are replete with the notion.

-a-train

not even a little bit sarcastic. This listen to your heart nonsense is why we have rainbow churches now. And why every other person out there with a Christian name tag is able to excuse their actions- because in their heart they think they love God, and that they are a good person.

" The heart is deceitful above all things,

And desperately wicked;

Who can know it? -Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is the driving force of the flesh. Our own flesh is evil- and the heart pushes its will upon us. The heart wants what it wants- not what is good or right.

[sjdean]

Picking a religion is not a hobby. Or a shoe store and you're trying to find one that fits for you. It is about taking up a cross- and changing who you are.

Not LDS. Which religion are you then?

By who's interpretation should I pick up a cross?

Catholic? Protestant? Anglican? Church of England? Methodist? Baptist? Plymouth Brethren? Open or Exclusive? Quaker? LDS? RLDS? Yours?

You may not be LDS, but I presume you have a similar viewpoint in that your religion is ultimately correct, and anyone who chooses different is wrong?

You are correct. Picking a religion is not a hobby. Im not quite sure how you came to infer that Im trying on religions like shoes. I was never baptised. But I am at a point in my life where I am exploring my faith and trying to study the Bible.

I hope by these teachings, I will find my path. I will continue to ask and pray to God for guidance.

[Rebky]

. I think the real choice is when you have no rope around your neck, when you're given the information you seek and you follow your own heart. Not someone elses.

Amen.

[Rebky]

But as I contemplated on another thread, perhaps all the religions that lead to God are correct. But God has given us different gifts in life and as such, we need different religions to get the most out of us. Perhaps we're given what we need as we need it.

This is exactly the case. It is correct to reach for God wherever you happen to be standing. When you sincerely align yourself with God, Truth follows. It really is that simple. You are entitled to your agency. Use it! God is Truth, and He'll direct you where your sincerity allows him to. When you are aligned with Him, your soul will connect with that which is true and you will be confident and peaceful about it. We learn line upon line, and God gives us no commandment that he isn't sure we can follow through with. You just need to relax and listen... to quiet communications with your soul. It's not wrong to question.. it's wrong not to listen to Him answer you. (Very hard to overcome ourselves in doing this... ) but it is the key.

[Rebky]

You may not be LDS, but I presume you have a similar viewpoint in that your religion is ultimately correct, and anyone who chooses different is wrong?

Not that anyone else is WRONG.. it's not about that. It's just about finding TRUTH. If one doesn't feel their Church is TRUE or it isn't answering their questions...they should keep on searching!

[a-train]

USNationalist,

OK. I see that you are saying something different than I thought. Apologies.

-a-train

[Guest Malcolm]

I just started coming to this site. I think it has been a month or so and I am feeling quite disappointed and frustrated at times. I was expecting an intelligent, honest or, to say the least, well intended inquiry from those who are not from the LDS faith. Encountering people just waiting to "pick a fight", of sorts, is just plain disappointing.

I hope that all that come would do so in the spirit of friendship, good will and camaraderie that should prevail whenever there are people of faith.

I am mystified by people that plain and simple reject the facts because they already made up their minds. But they still come. Why?

[Elphaba]

You just need to relax and listen... to quiet communications with your soul. It's not wrong to question.. it's wrong not to listen to Him answer you. (Very hard to overcome ourselves in doing this... ) but it is the key.

I believe what you describe happens for you.

But it has never happened for me.

Elphaba

[USNationalist]

Not LDS. Which religion are you then?

By who's interpretation should I pick up a cross?

Catholic? Protestant? Anglican? Church of England? Methodist? Baptist? Plymouth Brethren? Open or Exclusive? Quaker? LDS? RLDS? Yours?

You may not be LDS, but I presume you have a similar viewpoint in that your religion is ultimately correct, and anyone who chooses different is wrong?

You are correct. Picking a religion is not a hobby. Im not quite sure how you came to infer that Im trying on religions like shoes. I was never baptised. But I am at a point in my life where I am exploring my faith and trying to study the Bible.

I hope by these teachings, I will find my path. I will continue to ask and pray to God for guidance.

My view point is indeed the correct view point. If I did not think it was- I would not believe it. heh.

It really doesnt matter what christian church you affiliate with. Memberships do not mean salvation. If you believe Christ was the son of God, who died on the cross for our sins, rose again in 3 days, and your life bears the fruit of the spirit, then you are fine. All this back biting between different factions of the church is stupid.

The idea of finding a religion that works for you though can lead you down a very bad path. Because it makes our perception of truth relevant to what we want to believe.

[USNationalist]

USNationalist,

OK. I see that you are saying something different than I thought. Apologies.

-a-train

Good times. No need to apologize for anything. Disagreement and miscommunication is all apart of discourse. heh.

[Elphaba]

This has been an interesting thread.

Of course, I know my belief system is the right one, as I am an atheist.

Just making sure you knew.

Elphaba

[sjdean]

My view point is indeed the correct view point. If I did not think it was- I would not believe it. heh.

Good answer!

It just seems to me that a lot of people have the opinion that their religion is right for them, but everybody else should follow that religion too, right to the point that it's argued that people who don't follow such are being foolish, or they're not listening to the truth.

Could it not be contemplated that God is the only truth but we need different ways of getting to him because he has created us uniquely with different gifts?

For example, Im here on an LDS board, just because God isn't pointing me towards LDS at the moment, doesn't invalidate the religion - it just means its not right for me at the moment. It may never be right for me.

I think religion is a very personal thing, Im sure we're all directed differently by God. So it is a bug bear for me to hear "you're wrong".

It really doesnt matter what christian church you affiliate with.

If it does not matter, why does it matter to you?

It seems you've come to your own interpretation and are following God and Christ in the way that you think relevent. In essence, you have started your own church. I respect that you're finding God through your own path. But you seem to reject that others have their own interpretation and have their own paths to reach God.

Memberships do not mean salvation. If you believe Christ was the son of God, who died on the cross for our sins, rose again in 3 days, and your life bears the fruit of the spirit, then you are fine. All this back biting between different factions of the church is stupid.

I quite agree. There should be no need for it. Im still reading the Bible coming to an understanding of it, and it might be that I come to a different understanding to you and may believe that salvation requires something else. Despite different paths, we're still arriving at the same truth. So I tend to believe (at the moment) that there is a place in the world for all religions.

The idea of finding a religion that works for you though can lead you down a very bad path. Because it makes our perception of truth relevant to what we want to believe.

But isn't that what you've done? You've found your own religion that works for you, based on your interpretation and belief of the Bible.

How is that different to what Im trying to do?

Of course, I know my belief system is the right one, as I am an atheist.

For now. :-)

[USNationalist]

sjd- i have a really bad headache, So i'll try to respond a little later. Suffice to say I think you are misunderstanding some of what I have said.

[Elphaba]

For now. :-)

Darlin', you speak the truth, yet you do not know it.

That is because everything is "For now."

Elphie

[kona0197]

It really doesnt matter what christian church you affiliate with. Memberships do not mean salvation. If you believe Christ was the son of God, who died on the cross for our sins, rose again in 3 days, and your life bears the fruit of the spirit, then you are fine. All this back biting between different factions of the church is stupid.

Actually it does matter what Church you go to. There is the true Church then the all the rest. Membership does mean salvation.

[a-train]

'Perhaps the Lord needs such men on the outside of His Church to help it along. They are among its auxiliaries, and can do more good for the cause where the Lord has placed them, than anywhere else. … Hence, some are drawn into the fold and receive a testimony of the truth; while others remain unconverted … the beauties and glories of the gospel being veiled temporarily from their view, for a wise purpose. The Lord will open their eyes in His own due time. God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of His great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous for any one people. … We have no quarrel with the Gentiles. They are our partners in a certain sense.' - Orson F. Whitney 1928

'The Jew believes that the whole world that rejects his faith and are not circumcised, are Gentile dogs, and will be damned. The heathen is equally as tenacious about his principles, and the Christian consigns all to perdition who cannot bow to his creed, and submit to his ipse dixit.

But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes "His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."' - Joseph Smith Jr.

-a-train

[Guest TheLutheran]

Wow . . . has this thread gone all over the place or what!?! Back to the original topic which was adressing an adolescent's declaration of church membership. In the Lutheran tradition, infants are baptized and, after an extensive course of study (which doesn't take place in a building across the street from the public school nor during the regular school day), youth reaffirm their baptism and become confirmed as full members of the congregation. I found that the curriculum very thoroughly explained the beliefs and positions of the Lutheran church but was silent on other denominations and/or religions. As has been the case from time and time in public school, when a subject requires further inquiry, that's what we do as a family. So, in our house, before our daughters were confirmed, we, as a family, embarked on a open-minded study of the tenants of other faiths. That way the girls felt their instruction had not just been one-sided. And . . . they all chose to be confirmed as members of the congregation.

Is a sincere exploration of other faiths part of the seminary curriculum? Visiting other congregations is also an excellent suggestion . . . but not with the strings attached as one poster described -- to feel the lack of the Holy Spirit and then watch the reaction after announcing LDS affiliation.

We're asking our young people to make a very important decision and, accordingly, we owe them the courtesy and respect to provide as much information as possible to aid in that decision.

~~TheLutheran

[Fiannan]

Wow . . . has this thread gone all over the place or what!?! Back to the original topic which was adressing an adolescent's declaration of church membership. In the Lutheran tradition, infants are baptized and, after an extensive course of study (which doesn't take place in a building across the street from the public school nor during the regular school day), youth reaffirm their baptism and become confirmed as full members of the congregation. I found that the curriculum very thoroughly explained the beliefs and positions of the Lutheran church but was silent on other denominations and/or religions. As has been the case from time and time in public school, when a subject requires further inquiry, that's what we do as a family. So, in our house, before our daughters were confirmed, we, as a family, embarked on a open-minded study of the tenants of other faiths. That way the girls felt their instruction had not just been one-sided. And . . . they all chose to be confirmed as members of the congregation.

Is a sincere exploration of other faiths part of the seminary curriculum? Visiting other congregations is also an excellent suggestion . . . but not with the strings attached as one poster described -- to feel the lack of the Holy Spirit and then watch the reaction after announcing LDS affiliation.

We're asking our young people to make a very important decision and, accordingly, we owe them the courtesy and respect to provide as much information as possible to aid in that decision.

~~TheLutheran

I don't think the average LDS person is scared of taking their kids to another church for visits. I'll admit the only ones I taken any of my kids to for visits are Russian Orthodox and a Buddhist temple in Ping Youh but don't think that is the issue I originally brought up.

My issue is that people might take note of just how deep social control exists in western society and that much of what we consider balanced or open is in fact propaganda. Psychological techniques at social control run deep in America and Europe and people need to be aware in order to take the right PATH. My personal view is that if everyone is aware of the efforts to manipulate us (buesiness for money, government for power) then when their church leaders urge us to live a certain way (which is based on the desire for us to be happy and come closer to Christ) they will be far less likely to accuse those with a spiritual goal as being controlling or trying to brainwash.

Check the series out at video google and type in "The Century of the Self".