Guest Taoist_Saint Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 So I am confused about the LDS opinion of Capital Punishment... Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 The unforgivable sin is to deny the Holy Ghost. Murder is unforgivable under certain circumstances....there must be a blood atonement....therefore they must spill their own blood/be killed to atone for the murder they committed. Adultry is close to murder...I wonder how one would atone for that.... Quote
Jenda Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 I don't read into that that capital punishment is OK. I read into that spiritual death, no salvation. It says in Section 76 that those who deny the Holy Ghost shall receive as their reward (punishment?) eternity in outer darkness. There is more than one way to deny the Holy Ghost, and murder is one of them. Murdering someone is the act of denying the presence of the Holy Ghost in another, and therefore unforgiveable. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 3 2004, 06:44 PM I don't read into that that capital punishment is OK. I read into that spiritual death, no salvation. It says in Section 76 that those who deny the Holy Ghost shall receive as their reward (punishment?) eternity in outer darkness. There is more than one way to deny the Holy Ghost, and murder is one of them. Murdering someone is the act of denying the presence of the Holy Ghost in another, and therefore unforgiveable. Interesting Jenda. I never thought of it that way. Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 What if an LDS person goes to jail for life? Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 I don't know. I guess that is one the Lord will work out...maybe it will be like when...if you have the desire...it will be the same as if it happened.... We will be judged by our hearts...I think if someone who committed murder wasn't able to die for his sin, but he truly would die if given the change in order to pay for his sin....then it will be as if he did.... Quote
Jenda Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Jun 3 2004, 07:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Jun 3 2004, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Jun 3 2004, 06:43 PM The unforgivable sin is to deny the Holy Ghost.Murder is unforgivable under certain circumstances....there must be a blood atonement....therefore they must spill their own blood/be killed to atone for the murder they committed.Adultry is close to murder...I wonder how one would atone for that.... Oh, I thought blood atonement was just something stupid that Brigham Young made up, which could only be found in some obscure source like the Journal of Discourses.So we do believe in Blood Atonement?What about an LDS person who lives in a country with no death penalty...or one who is put in prison for life and spared the death penalty...how is he forgiven for murder? Does someone have to kill him? We (or at least I (since I am not LDS)) believe in blood atonement in the basest sense of the phrase in that Christ's blood atoned for our sins. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 Well, it hasn't been that long since Arthur Gary Bishop asked to be put to death (maybe a dozen or so years ago) because he was told (being LDS) that it was the only way he could possibly help his eternal condition... It was discussed on the tv news at the time....I don't know if I can find any current or semi-current references on this subject...from GAs....but I'll check. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 Here is what I found: GS Capital Punishment Whoso sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, Gen. 9: 6 (JST, Gen. 9: 12-13). The murderer shall surely be put to death, Num. 35: 16. Murderers who deliberately kill shall die, 2 Ne. 9: 35. Thou art condemned to die according to the law, Alma 1: 13-14. He that murdered was punished unto death, Alma 1: 18. The law requires the life of him who has murdered, Alma 34: 12. He that kills shall die, D&C 42: 19. Quote
Jenda Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Jun 3 2004, 09:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Jun 3 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 3 2004, 07:22 PM We (or at least I (since I am not LDS)) believe in blood atonement in the basest sense of the phrase in that Christ's blood atoned for our sins. But do the LDS believe in Blood Atonement in the sense of Capital Punishment? From the rumors I hear about Brigham Young, he preached Blood Atonement in the same way that Starsky just described it:Murder is unforgivable under certain circumstances....there must be a blood atonement....therefore they must spill their own blood/be killed to atone for the murder they committed.Is that doctrine? The reason I ask is because I was under the impression that that sort of Blood Atonement was just Journal of Discourses stuff equivelant to the " Adam/God theory" and the "People who dress like Quakers who live on the Moon". Blood atonement was practiced historically in the church from the Nauvoo period forward for quite a few years (I would guess 20-30).In Nauvoo (and maybe earlier) there were such groups in the church called the Whistling Whittling Brigade and the Danites which initially sprang into being as sort-of bodyguards for the elite of the church, but they quickly became otherwise engaged, and after the saints got to Utah, there was the Avenging Angels. Same thing. And one didn't have to do anything as heinous as murder to be eligible for their vengeance. Blood atonement was the end all for lots of sins, including wanting to move back east after the trek west, and for lesser sins such as not fully supporting the leadership.However, I don't believe it was ever an official doctrine. Quote
Tr2 Posted June 4, 2004 Report Posted June 4, 2004 This is an issue that I don't think we will ever know for certain. In the OT God said that it is wrong to kill ,yet shortly after God commands His people to kill. Myabe he is referring to us killing people by our own initiative or something along those lines. Both arguments are valid, yet cancel each other out. Quote
Guest jackvance88 Posted June 7, 2004 Report Posted June 7, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 3 2004, 07:44 PM I don't read into that that capital punishment is OK. I read into that spiritual death, no salvation. It says in Section 76 that those who deny the Holy Ghost shall receive as their reward (punishment?) eternity in outer darkness. There is more than one way to deny the Holy Ghost, and murder is one of them. Murdering someone is the act of denying the presence of the Holy Ghost in another, and therefore unforgiveable. one thing about god and christ stands out first and foremost to me. it's not their compassion or the atonement or repentance or love etc, it's that they are both all powerful and pretty scary. when i think of them, i feel a sense of dread and fear thinking about all the terrifying punishments they will dish out at the last day.but then again, maybe i'm not thinking about them - how they really are, but how you portray them Quote
Guest lt Posted June 7, 2004 Report Posted June 7, 2004 I personaly believe that we are not to judge, yet let the lord do his work in his own time. I do belive in prison because it keeps those who are bad from harming others. Laureltree Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted June 7, 2004 Report Posted June 7, 2004 Interesting. I wonder who told him that he had to die? Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 7, 2004 Report Posted June 7, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Jun 7 2004, 04:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Jun 7 2004, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Jun 3 2004, 11:26 PM Well, it hasn't been that long since Arthur Gary Bishop asked to be put to death (maybe a dozen or so years ago) because he was told (being LDS) that it was the only way he could possibly help his eternal condition...It was discussed on the tv news at the time....I don't know if I can find any current or semi-current references on this subject...from GAs....but I'll check. Interesting. I wonder who told him that he had to die? I can't remember...but is was discussed. Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted June 7, 2004 Report Posted June 7, 2004 Thanks for the answers everyone... Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted June 7, 2004 Report Posted June 7, 2004 Maybe that prisoner read D&C? Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 7, 2004 Report Posted June 7, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Jun 7 2004, 04:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Jun 7 2004, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Jun 7 2004, 04:28 PM I can't remember...but is was discussed. Maybe he just read the D&C? You know that is a good possibility....but I remember something happening around that time which also exposed this doctrine...it was when the Lafferty brothers started killing people whom they deemed unworthy of living....due to their misinterpretting this doctrine...The Lafferties, Ron and his brother were in a church which was pretty much created and run by their mother....it was a brake off from the LDS church...they thought themselves to be prophets and alll...Anyway...he might have gotten the idea from those guys and their story which was very much exposed through the media. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 7, 2004 Report Posted June 7, 2004 I really can't tell you that...maybe they didn't watch TV, or maybe they thought anything to do with apostates was forboden....ya know? Of course me and my hubby listened because that Lafferty guy was our Elder's quorum president just a few years before.. Quote
Guest lt Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Jack, Sometime when you talk about the church I just wanna up CHUCK! Quote
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