Why does God allow so many to be misled in His name?

[Guest tomk]

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I don't really care what they believe or follow either, billions of people sharing a belief could still be wrong, but it does suggest it could at least be worth looking into. I'm merely looking for explainations for what I observe in this world. You're telling me the answers go against what I observed so I am waiting for God to weigh in on the subject.

Forgiven. I am a very patient and also stubborn person, I seem to inspire exasperation in many people (including my wife sometimes) :)

Thanks for forgiving me.

That is exactly what I am saying (the part that your wrote which I chose to bold above).

The way God works often does NOT make sense to us.

But it is not irrational, it is extra-rational. Can we agree that "if" God exists - and is responsible for our being here - that He both has a plan to get us back home and isn't it also likely that He is a lot smarter and more experienced than we are?

He often works with us beyond the scope of the 5 senses. Beyond everyday logic. It is to our feelings that God speaks. We "feel" that something is right, or we "feel" that something is "wrong." That is how He guides us.

I get the sense that you feel feelings, but you don't trust them. Why? Not based upon other people's experiences -- why don't YOU trust them? Answering that for yourself may help you "break lose" of the situation you are in.

[DigitalShadow]

Thanks for forgiving me.

Any time :)

But it is not irrational, it is extra-rational.

I understand the meaning of "irrational" but I'm not clear on "extra-rational" and what differentiates the two. Is "extra-rational" just a word meaning the same as irrational but only when applied to religious beliefs to avoid the negative connotations of the word "irrational"?

Can we agree that "if" God exists - and is responsible for our being here - that He both has a plan to get us back home and isn't it also likely that He is a lot smarter and more experienced than we are?

Yes, I would agree that both of those are probable "if" God exists.

He often works with us beyond the scope of the 5 senses. Beyond everyday logic. It is to our feelings that God speaks. We "feel" that something is right, or we "feel" that something is "wrong." That is how He guides us.

I will agree with you there, but I'm still left with the concern that feelings are often wrong and misleading and even assuming God does work through feelings it seems impossible to differentiate Him from our own thoughts and desires and indeed if you look around in the world, many people make that mistake.

I get the sense that you feel feelings, but you don't trust them. Why? Not based upon other people's experiences -- why don't YOU trust them? Answering that for yourself may help you "break lose" of the situation you are in.

My feelings have always told me that God does not exist. I don't trust my feelings because they have proven themselves to be wrong before, so I am giving religion the benifet of the doubt and investigating.

[Misshalfway]

My feelings have always told me that God does not exist. I don't trust my feelings because they have proven themselves to be wrong before, so I am giving religion the benifet of the doubt and investigating.

I do believe this may just be faith! :)

[DigitalShadow]

My feelings have always told me that God does not exist. I don't trust my feelings because they have proven themselves to be wrong before, so I am giving religion the benifet of the doubt and investigating.

I do believe this may just be faith! :)

Open mindedness is not quite the same as faith, unless I missed something major

[Misshalfway]

Alma 32:27

But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

[Misshalfway]

Hey DS, you gonna watch conference this weekend?

[MormonMama]

I do follow my conscience and I do think I will be okay, but many religious people seem to disagree.

Honestly, I think that if you are doing the best you can with the information you have, then you are on the right track.

You can't force yourself to believe anything (nor can anyone else force you, no matter how much they may try). That would be false belief, which in my opinion is worse than no belief at all.

I say just keep doing what you're doing (as long as you want to do it, anyway). Perhaps the answers will never come to you in this life (or not all of them anyway), but you will still learn something valuable just in seeking the knowledge, even if you only learn something about your fellow man.

[DigitalShadow]

Hey DS, you gonna watch conference this weekend?

Yes, I even pay more attention to it than my wife who is usually on her laptop the whole time too.

[Misshalfway]

Yes, I even pay more attention to it than my wife who is usually on her laptop the whole time too.

Sweet! We'll have to talk afterwards. How's the reading? Any thing touch your soul?

[Guest tomk]

Any time :)

I understand the meaning of "irrational" but I'm not clear on "extra-rational" and what differentiates the two. Is "extra-rational" just a word meaning the same as irrational but only when applied to religious beliefs to avoid the negative connotations of the word "irrational"?

My layman explanation is:

irrational - making no sense, at all, to the 5 senses we possess

extra-rational - appealing to something other than the 5 senses. Detectable but not measurable by instruemnts.

Yes, I would agree that both of those are probable "if" God exists.

Take away the "if", and we understand each other now. :)

I will agree with you there, but I'm still left with the concern that feelings are often wrong and misleading and even assuming God does work through feelings it seems impossible to differentiate Him from our own thoughts and desires and indeed if you look around in the world, many people make that mistake.

Yes, feelings are sometimes wrong and misleading.

So I ask you:

Is there another side to feelings?

Can your feelings also be RIGHT and LEAD YOU CORRECTLY?

My feelings have always told me that God does not exist. I don't trust my feelings because they have proven themselves to be wrong before, so I am giving religion the benifet of the doubt and investigating.

Unfortunately, our words have nothing to offer you by way of "proving" your feelings are correct or incorrect.

If it is the existence of God which you doubt, then, to God you must go.

How exactly are our words helping you?

Are our words "convincing" you of anything?

Are these discussions important to you? How much do you have invested "spiritually" and "emotionally" in these discussions, or are they just an interesting intellectual game for you?

That sounded harsh. I don't mean it to be.

I am just trying to figure-out how much you are really, deep down, hungering and thirsting for these answers -- to know that God exists and to know how He speaks to you and to know it is Him and not someone trying to decieve you.

If you don't care either way -- why expect such from God?

[Misshalfway]

Tom.... relax.

[Hemidakota]

Alma 32:27

But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

It worked for me!

[Misshalfway]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Bridging the Gap between Uncertainty and Certainty

I found this old talk. Thought I would pass it along to you.

[DigitalShadow]

Unfortunately, our words have nothing to offer you by way of "proving" your feelings are correct or incorrect.

My point is that feelings can't be "proven" correct or incorrect period. I believe that is where faith comes in.

If it is the existence of God which you doubt, then, to God you must go.

Yes, I agree, which is why I went to Him.

How exactly are our words helping you?

Are our words "convincing" you of anything?

I believe that my interractions here have lead to new ways of thinking for me and that I have learned a lot here so far. I didn't come here to be "convinced", I came here to learn and that is what I'm doing.

Are these discussions important to you? How much do you have invested "spiritually" and "emotionally" in these discussions, or are they just an interesting intellectual game for you?

If these discussions weren't important to me, I assure you that I would not persist in them. XBox 360 has a wide array of games that dwarf the entertainment value of this discussion in comparison.

That sounded harsh. I don't mean it to be.

No offense taken, it was a valid question.

I am just trying to figure-out how much you are really, deep down, hungering and thirsting for these answers -- to know that God exists and to know how He speaks to you and to know it is Him and not someone trying to decieve you.

I assure you that I am hungering and thirsting for these answers far more than the vast majority of people I've met.

If you don't care either way -- why expect such from God?

I think you may be mistaking my agnosticism for apathy. I am willing to accept either possibility of God existing or not existing, but I still very much want to know the truth of the matter.

[Guest tomk]

Tom.... relax.

:::: inhale ::::::

:::: exhale ::::::

I feel much better now!

Thank you.

[Misshalfway]

:::: inhale ::::::

:::: exhale ::::::

I feel much better now!

Thank you.

LOL!

[Guest tomk]

My point is that feelings can't be "proven" correct or incorrect period. I believe that is where faith comes in.

Yes, I agree, which is why I went to Him.

I believe that my interractions here have lead to new ways of thinking for me and that I have learned a lot here so far. I didn't come here to be "convinced", I came here to learn and that is what I'm doing.

If these discussions weren't important to me, I assure you that I would not persist in them. XBox 360 has a wide array of games that dwarf the entertainment value of this discussion in comparison.

No offense taken, it was a valid question.

I assure you that I am hungering and thirsting for these answers far more than the vast majority of people I've met.

I think you may be mistaking my agnosticism for apathy. I am willing to accept either possibility of God existing or not existing, but I still very much want to know the truth of the matter.

DS:

I genuinely like you. I would like to call you my friend. I hope you feel the same.

Listen, I am not sure if you can tell by my posts, because I keep wavering between intense frustration and and intense desire to help you learn what you have come here to learn.

Maybe if I just keep trying I'll stumble upon something that will help. :)

I am intrigued by your confession that God has not spoken to you. I don't understand how that could be, for my experience with God has been very very different. For the first time in my life I feel BAD that you are not enjoying the same relationship with God that I feel....I feel BAD that you don't seem to feel any relationship with God AT ALL .... that you wonder if He even exists!!

From my experience with God, I feel the total opposite. I know He loves me. I know He has helped me become a better person. I know that He cares about what happens in my life. As I come to know God more and more I feel like there are fewer coincidences and more "design" in the things that happen in my life. Part of how God blesses us is in our willingness to come to Him with the stuff that is seemingly "not His doing" and ask Him to be a part of it, anyways.

I am excited for you to come to know the God I believe in. There is a saying that if your current God is not working for you, then fire your current God and get a new one!! That is not an invitation to idolatry, but rather an invitation to look at how you are viewing God and perhaps some misconception you might have about who He is and why He deals with us in the ways He does.

I am excited for the day when your doubt turns to belief. When you begin to have those experiences that remove doubt (they are to be had)

Maybe removing DOUBT in ALL areas does not happen in this life for most -- but in the really important "foundational" areas -- it is possible not to doubt, for I no longer doubt God lives and loves me. I don't know a lot of things, but I do know that much.

Faith is a living thing. It can get stronger by being nourished. It can get weaker through neglect.

Faith is all about the unknown. It is about taking that step and trusting God is there. It is scary, to be sure -- but the rewards are worth it. And it is hard to understand until you pass through the experience. Then you are like, "NOW I UNDERSTAND."

Is there anything more you can share with us that will "help us help you help us" ??? Our advice is only as good as our information. :)

[rameumptom]

I was thinking about this thread when a scripture was mentioned during Conference today. It was on Alma stating that he had "fasted and prayed many days" before receiving his witness. The speaker, Elder Oaks (IIRC) stated that testimony is a process. It starts with a desire to believe, but can't end there.

Have we paid the price to receive or develop a testimony? It is one thing to desire or talk about it. It is another thing to get our lives in order, fast, pray, and do whatever else is necessary to gain one.

[darrel]

I too have been thinking about this topic and would like to add my thoughts.

DS has some definate opinions, beliefs, conceptions or whatever you call them. I don't think that anything anyone says will change his mind. Only he or perhaps God, as in the case of Saul, will redirect his thinking.:)

I feel the topic of this thread does not allow for the fundimental gospel principle of agency. God will allow individuals to choose. He will not make them believe. We understand that was one of the main causes of the premortal war in heaven between Satan and his 1/3 and the Hosts of God.

Satans plan was to force everyone to believe and be saved. Gods plan presented by Christ was to give agency to men to choose and develop faith on him, which principle is vital to Gods plan of redemption.

Two main reasons for this earth life is A. Gain a physical body and B. Develop Faith in the God. One is automatic when we are born. The other we must work on by the trials we endure and choices we make.

Our progress and learning must be ongoing. We grow in faith, in obedience and in understanding. Each individual will reach a level of development in our earthly schooling. Our final grade will be the reward we receive at the final judgment.

Good luck in your quest for answers DS. Your answers must come from within.:)