The Age of Apostasy

[Listener]

My warmest greetings to you all.

In examining some LDS beliefs, I have found myself struggling with the Age of Apostasy. If I understand it correctly, it would be that after the generation of the Apostles, the true teachings of Jesus had become increasingly distorted. It was not until the revelations to Joseph Smith that this was corrected.

I struggle with this, if one must discount the centuries of wonderful and faithful Christian lives, and discount the mountains and valleys of 1800 years of theology (at times truly heavenly, and alas, at times truly awful).

Is there a possibility open to affirm the revelation to Joseph Smith, but also to value what is good and right in all the traditions who affirm the gospel of Jesus?

[Brother Dorsey]

My warmest greetings to you all.

In examining some LDS beliefs, I have found myself struggling with the Age of Apostasy. If I understand it correctly, it would be that after the generation of the Apostles, the true teachings of Jesus had become increasingly distorted. It was not until the revelations to Joseph Smith that this was corrected.

I struggle with this, if one must discount the centuries of wonderful and faithful Christian lives, and discount the mountains and valleys of 1800 years of theology (at times truly heavenly, and alas, at times truly awful).

Is there a possibility open to affirm the revelation to Joseph Smith, but also to value what is good and right in all the traditions who affirm the gospel of Jesus?

Absolutely! The Lord's church never left the Earth as He promised...but the authority to act in His name did....thus the apostasy. When the authority of the Priesthood of God was removed from the Earth it left man without revelation from God to guide man in matters of the Lords church. When this happened the true teachings of Christ throughout both the OT and NT were distorted and in some cases removed by man. In the 4th century, a couple hundred years following the apostasy it was man who formally organized the Lords church and choose it's canon out of ancient writings and stories. The church then split and split and split many times over so then there were many churches professing the truth and in those churches were good, honest God fearing and God loving Christians who worked with what they had. Each of those churches had parts of the truth but none had all.....until.....the restoration as promised in the Bible.

As LDS we do not discount the centuries of wonderful and faithful Christians who worshiped with the only truths they had...we don't discount them and neither does God.

[Teancum18]

Much good came from this time period known as the Great Apostasy. For starters, the Bible was preserved. We it not for the Orthodox Church (not yet known as Catholicism), we wouldn't have the Bible. Throughout history, men like Martin Luther, King James, John Calvin, and many others came advocating religious freedom. Up until those times, religion was mandated and one creed was determined for everyone. These men advocating religious freedom paved the way for Christ's church to be restored.

Many have wondered if Christopher Columbus was inspired to find the Americas.

While the apostasy was still just beginning, the people of the Book of Mormon were still strong and writing about their religious experiences from God. It would be very contradictory of us to say that nothing spiritual was happening during this apostasy and then turn around and claim otherwise about the people in the Book of Mormon.

Many scientific discoveries and inventions could be considered inspiration from God. There were some great advancements during the apostasy. Nothing like what we've seen since the church was restored, but you get what I mean.

Many believe the founding father of the United States of America were very much inspired by God during the writing of the Declaration of Independence and the forming of our Constitution. They, themselves believed the same thing.

The list goes on. Many wonderful things happened during the apostasy. It was just very difficult for people to worship how they wanted to and to find correct truth.

Hope that helps.

[Listener]

Thanks to both of you for the thoughtful comments.

The Catholic position is that authority rested in the direct transmission of authority through the laying on of hands/invocation of the Holy Spirit from one generation of bishops to the next. The unbroken lineage was understood to be the channel of God's authority and revelation. I must admit that the elevation of the Bishop of Rome to a position of uniqueness is more a function of the accidents of history, than the will of God. (Just ask anyone from the Orthodox faith).

The Protestant view is that all believers share in the priesthood of Jesus. Each individual, through faith, may access the revelation of God. No wonder there have been a thousand splits.

What would your views be on the above?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I struggle with this, if one must discount the centuries of wonderful and faithful Christian lives, and discount the mountains and valleys of 1800 years of theology (at times truly heavenly, and alas, at times truly awful).

Is there a possibility open to affirm the revelation to Joseph Smith, but also to value what is good and right in all the traditions who affirm the gospel of Jesus?

This is exactly the LDS viewpoint. There have indeed been mountains and valleys. The truly awful is the stuff we believe was of man and not of God. The truly heavenly we accept as divinely inspired. There have been some wonderful things written by non-LDS authors which when seen from an LDS point of view actually contain great LDS doctrine.

Consider this by William Wordsworth:

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:

The soul that rises with us, our life’s star,

Hath had elsewhere its setting,

And cometh from afar.

Not in entire forgetfulness,

And not in utter nakedness,

But trailing clouds of glory, do we come

From God, who is our home:

Heaven lies about us in our infancy.

The restoration brought the priesthood authority and the restoration of all that is from God, excluding the man-made troughs.

I would hope that we can all value what is good and right in all those who believe and trust in the Saviour.

[lilered]

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor, in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed. They were subsequently published in Church periodicals. They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

1 We abelieve in bGod, the Eternal Father, and in His cSon, Jesus Christ, and in the dHoly Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be apunished for their bown sins, and not for Adam’s ctransgression.

3 We believe that through the aAtonement of Christ, all bmankind may be csaved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and aordinances of the Gospel are: first, bFaith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, cRepentance; third, dBaptism by eimmersion for the fremission of sins; fourth, Laying on of ghands for the hgift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be acalled of God, by bprophecy, and by the laying on of chands by those who are in dauthority, to epreach the Gospel and administer in the fordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same aorganization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, bprophets, cpastors, dteachers, eevangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the agift of btongues, cprophecy, drevelation, evisions, fhealing, ginterpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the aBible to be the bword of God as far as it is translated ccorrectly; we also believe the dBook of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has arevealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet breveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal agathering of Israel and in the restoration of the bTen Tribes; that cZion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will dreign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be erenewed and receive its fparadisiacal gglory.

11 We claim the aprivilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the bdictates of our own cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them dworship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being asubject to bkings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in cobeying, honoring, and sustaining the dlaw.

13 aWe believe in being bhonest, true, cchaste, dbenevolent, virtuous, and in doing egood to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we fhope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to gendure all things. If there is anything hvirtuous, ilovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Of interest concerning your specific question(s) is Article 8 & 13

& 5, 6, respetively.

[Teancum18]

Thanks to both of you for the thoughtful comments.

The Catholic position is that authority rested in the direct transmission of authority through the laying on of hands/invocation of the Holy Spirit from one generation of bishops to the next. The unbroken lineage was understood to be the channel of God's authority and revelation. I must admit that the elevation of the Bishop of Rome to a position of uniqueness is more a function of the accidents of history, than the will of God. (Just ask anyone from the Orthodox faith).

The Protestant view is that all believers share in the priesthood of Jesus. Each individual, through faith, may access the revelation of God. No wonder there have been a thousand splits.

What would your views be on the above?

Hey, buddy! You're welcome. Let me see if I can add to this a little further. First things first:

1) the unbroken lineage is a tricky one. Yes, there is a documented lineage of the priesthood authority being handed down in the Catholic Church. Where it becomes an issue for debate is hierarchy. Two bishops within the Catholic Church (Orthodox at the time) ordained another person a Bishop. According to the stand point of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a bishop cannot ordain another bishop. Only someone in higher authority, like an apostle for example, can ordain another Bishop. This is where our church believes the Orthodox church lost their authority.

2) The Protestant view is half correct. Faith in Christ and prayer is all an individual needs to receive personal guidance from Heavenly Father. And of course, the Holy Ghost. However, for one person to receive revelation for others, or a church as a whole, the Priesthood Authority is definitely needed, without question. Hebrews 5:4 eludes to this when making reference to Aaron.

3) So, while a person only needs faith and prayer and the spirit to receive revelation, much more is needed for a person to receive this authority. The laying on of hands, by one who is in authority, is absolutely required. Prayer and faith alone do not suffice, though they are absolutely needed once a person has this authority. The example of Christ ordaining His apostles by the laying on of hands is just one of many evidences of this.

Just as a side note, I never could understand how so many Christian faiths claim that the heavens are sealed and no more will be sent, but then they turn around and claim that anyone can be sent this authority through faith and prayer?? Oh well... Hope I have helped you!

[Listener]

Thanks again for the helpful replies.

To Lilared: The list of beliefs was helpful. What was striking about it was that my pentecostal friends would be entirely in agreement (barring 8d and 10). Although the articles of faith are likely to be a new thread, they have helped me.

To WillowTheWisp: Loved the poetry. You helped me clarify the difference between godly inspiration and heavenly authority.

To Teancum18: I understand your point about transmission of authority. The Anglican Church uses the same transmission argument that the Catholic church does...and all of the Orthodox Churches would also trace their lineage back to the apostles as well. I've never been a big fan of all of this...authority rests with God, and He gives it to whom He chooses.

Regarding the Protestant problem--the Protestant view of the whole church has always been reduced to a metaphor. The Church would be the entire Body of Christ. And, as is apparent, a great deal of Christ's Church is not in the mood to talk to one another. (The eye really doesn't like the hand after all.)

As for the sealing of the heavens...I think that this has more to do with seeking to explain the lack of spiritual gifts exercised among the faithful. It also links to the perceived cessation of miracles after the age of the apostles. None of this has Scriptural foundations. Discouragement is often the source of questionable theology.

Does the LDS view the gifts of the early church (prophecy, discernment, etc.) as available to all those who have received the Holy Spirit?

[Teancum18]

Does the LDS view the gifts of the early church (prophecy, discernment, etc.) as available to all those who have received the Holy Spirit?

I am not entirely sure I know the precise meaning of your question. So I will answer as best I can, and then you can just ask more questions.

Overall, the answer is yes. We still believe in the same gifts of the spirit that have always existed. The main reason for this is because we believe that Heavenly Father is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Secondly, our beliefs that the Heavens are still open include the girts of the spirit. Galatians 5:22-23 talks about the "fruits of the spirit," and we very much agree with those.

Now, regarding your response about the authority and laying on of hands. This is a very difficult subject for many people. I totally agree with you that God gives it to who He wants. Having said that, I do believe that God, Himself was speaking with purpose when He said that "many are called, but few are chosen." Just like a judge in a court of law needs authority to act in behalf of the law and constitution, a man of God must have authority from Him to act in His behalf. Finally, as to who has that authority, LDS, Catholics, Protestants; the truth is, everyone really needs to study it out for themselves and then inquire of God to receive that answer.

That's all I have for now.

[lilered]

Does the LDS view the gifts of the early church (prophecy, discernment, etc.) as available to all those who have received the Holy Spirit?

We believe that all who are worthy may receive prophecy, discernment etc. for themselves and/or family. The Church Prophet and Seerer is entitled to personal and to receive prophecies, see the future, and dsicernment. The Church Leadership may also receive prophecy and discernment, etc. for the church, however they do not see the church future.

We also believe that those worthy holding the Priesthood of God, may act in his name as the spirit dictates as far as giving blessings, healing the sick, etc.

[Listener]

Thanks again for your responses.

I am grateful for your input. The clarity of your explanations (all of you) has helped with this topic tremendously.

Hope to catch up with you all again in a different thread!