For Hemi - Three knocks

[Guest tomk]

Hemi and I are continuing a discussion in here that we began in another thread. To avoid any more hijacking of that thread, we decided to post in here.

This thread is a discussion of the following verses as illustrations of "knocking at the veil" 3 times, as discussed on page 175 of this book:

Conversing with the Lord through the Veil

On page 175, Brother Snuffer indicates "THREE KNOCKS AT THE VEIL" and then goes on to list them as thus:

First knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19:20-23

Second knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19: 28-29

Third knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19:32

Hemi, do you have any commentary?

[Hemidakota]

Do you remember in BOM, that the Nephites/Lamanites [righteous ones] there heard a voice from heaven THREE TIMES after the THIRD DAY by GOD? :) A day later, Now it becomes a three fold petition from the Savior to the GOD. Same thing is done in temple. This is a Temple ordinance being done on a grand scale vice a single person being presented to GOD.

Most of us would never had caught this if we did not have our endowments done.

In the BOM, the 12 were in a circle, while the Savior was in the midst of them. Sounds familiar? [3Neph 19:24] All of the prayers are being done in unison. This was a preparatory for receiving the FATHER. Now, they need the proper garment as told many times throughout the standard works before meeting the 'bridegroom'. More like a wedding dress. Being unspotted and pure white. Sounds familiar? So, looking at those versus:

To summarize:

1 - Washed

2 - Annointed

3 - Clothed

It is then that the veil is parted for those individuals to received the greater light and truth, that is not uttered. [3Nephi 19:32-34]

Am I still on the same path? What is not doctrine for the masses become doctrine for the few.

[Guest tomk]

Very neat. I had not looked at it in quite that way.

There are so many layers, Hemi. Layers within layers. Hidden layers yet to be dreamt of in our wildest imaginings!

The 3 knocks:

FIRST KNOCK:

20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

SECOND KNOCK:

28 Father, I thank thee that thou hast purified those whom I have chosen, because of their faith, and I pray for them, and also for them who shall believe on their words, that they may be purified in me, through faith on their words, even as they are purified in me.

29 Father, I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me out of the world, because of their faith, that they may be purified in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one, that I may be glorified in them.

THIRD KNOCK:

32 And tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be written by man the words which he prayed.

[Guest tomk]

Father....

Father....

Father....

[Guest tomk]

Father, I thank thee

Father, I pray thee

Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost

--------

Father, I thank thee that thou has purified...

Father, I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me out of the world

---------

UNSPEAKABLE

[Hemidakota]

Those versus are helping a individual to conform to heavenly patterns. As the temple does for us today.

Did you ever count the amount wounds on the Savior? Or as Denver pointed out, the amount ruffles on the garment robe? Each one has a meaning for it.

I see the BOM in bringing us to the that very "VEIL'. It has the correct tools in aiding us to reached that desire we hoped for.

[Hemidakota]

Father, I thank thee

Father, I pray thee

Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost

--------

Father, I thank thee that thou has purified...

Father, I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me out of the world

---------

UNSPEAKABLE

The key here, this is not for everyone as stated by the Savior: 'but for those whom thou has given me out of the world.'

[Guest tomk]

FIRST KNOCK:

20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

[Hemidakota]

Nice capture within the versus. It is quite clear that there is a Chiasm formed here. Dot 1 connects to dot 2 and so forth. and says it reverse.

You can find the same in 3 Nephi chapter 17

[WillowTheWhisp]

Did you ever count the amount wounds on the Savior? Or as Denver pointed out, the amount ruffles on the garment robe? Each one has a meaning for it.

There was/is a pattern in the Nauvoo Temple but some have misunderstood it. Nevertheless when rebuilt it was not altered.

[Guest tomk]

The key here, this is not for everyone as stated by the Savior: 'but for those whom thou has given me out of the world.'

Concur.

We "choose ourselves":

The Tender Mercies of the Lord

To be or to become chosen is not an exclusive status conferred upon us. Rather, you and I ultimately determine if we are chosen. Please now note the use of the word chosen in the following verses from the Doctrine and Covenants:

"Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

"Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men" (D&C 121:34–35; emphasis added).

I believe the implication of these verses is quite straightforward. God does not have a list of favorites to which we must hope our names will someday be added. He does not limit "the chosen" to a restricted few. Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God's chosen.

Enoch was instructed by the Lord on this very point of doctrine. Please note the use of the word choose in these verses: "Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

"And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father" (Moses 7:32–33; emphasis added).

[Guest tomk]

Those versus are helping a individual to conform to heavenly patterns. As the temple does for us today.

Did you ever count the amount wounds on the Savior? Or as Denver pointed out, the amount ruffles on the garment robe? Each one has a meaning for it.

I see the BOM in bringing us to the that very "VEIL'. It has the correct tools in aiding us to reached that desire we hoped for.

Concur, and yes I have.

[Hemidakota]

NAUVOO TEMPLE EXTERIOR SYMBOLISM By Lisle Brown [1999] is a great article about that.

[Hemidakota]

Seven wounds total - means perfection

[Hemidakota]

You know Tom, Elder Olsen Pratt stated this before the Twelve:

"Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, you sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you." [DHC 2:195-196]

[Guest tomk]

You know Tom, Elder Olsen Pratt stated this before the Twelve:

"Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, you sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you." [DHC 2:195-196]

....is why I sent you those PDFs!!!! Did you get them?

D&C 36: 5, 7

That as many as shall come before my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun., embracing this calling and commandment, shall be ordained and sent forth to preach the everlasting gospel among the nations—

7 And this commandment shall be given unto the elders of my church, that every man which will embrace it with singleness of heart may be ordained and sent forth, even as I have spoken.

D&C 50: 17, 26

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth, the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.

Alma 49: 30 Yea, and there was continual peace among them, and exceedingly great prosperity in the church because of their heed and diligence which they gave unto the word of God, which was declared unto them by Helaman, and Shiblon, and Corianton, and Ammon and his brethren, yea, and by all those who had been ordained by the holy order of God, being baptized unto repentance, and sent forth to preach among the people.

Think ordained by God's hands personally not by proxy.

Then these verses make more sense in that context.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Seven wounds total - means perfection

Many do not understand because they do not know that there were seven. Others see the symbolism of five as (mis)representing the wounds and believe there should be more. Do they choose to count every piercing of the crown of thorns? Of that we can never count.

[Hemidakota]

Willow, there were two nails marks, both wists, ankle, and pierce side.

[Guest tomk]

You know Tom, Elder Olsen Pratt stated this before the Twelve:

"Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, you sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you." [DHC 2:195-196]

AFTER GOD HAS LAID HIS HANDS, PERSONALLY, UPON YOU:

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

OF WHAT USE ARE THESE VERSES AFTER WE ARE DEAD?

The scriptures were written for MORTAL MAN so he can become AMORTAL MAN. :)

[Hemidakota]

....is why I sent you those PDFs!!!! Did you get them?

D&C 36: 5, 7

That as many as shall come before my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun., embracing this calling and commandment, shall be ordained and sent forth to preach the everlasting gospel among the nations—

7 And this commandment shall be given unto the elders of my church, that every man which will embrace it with singleness of heart may be ordained and sent forth, even as I have spoken.

D&C 50: 17, 26

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?

26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth, the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.

Alma 49: 30 Yea, and there was continual peace among them, and exceedingly great prosperity in the church because of their heed and diligence which they gave unto the word of God, which was declared unto them by Helaman, and Shiblon, and Corianton, and Ammon and his brethren, yea, and by all those who had been ordained by the holy order of God, being baptized unto repentance, and sent forth to preach among the people.

Think ordained by God's hands personally not by proxy.

Then these verses make more sense in that context.

Proxy?

Which PDFs? I'm having a senior moment here Tom.

[Guest tomk]

Willow, there were two nails marks, both wists, ankle, and pierce side.

Many think it was his feet.

left hand, left wrist

right hand, right wrist

left ankle

right ankle

pierced his side

That's seven marks.

[Hemidakota]

LOL..it was. I don't know what made think ankles.

[Guest tomk]

LOL..it was. I don't know what made think ankles.

I was not correcting you, brother. You spoke accurately.

I have heard it was his ankles not his feet.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Willow, there were two nails marks, both wists, ankle, and pierce side.

I'm not sure if we are on the same wave length. Maybe you mean the same thing I mean.

There was one nail which went through both ankles, thus making two wounds.

There was one spear thrust into his side which totals now 3.

There was one nail in each hand which totals 5.

Here some think this was all and that there were only five. Much has been (mistakenly) made about the symbolism of five. Silly things like the sand dollar being used to repressent the wounds.

There was also one nail in each wrist - total now 7.

But he was also wounded by the crown of thorns which was pressed down into his head, piercing deeply and drawing blood. It was more than just a pretty imitation crown made to mock his divine Kingship.

Also there were the wounds on his back from the scourging which cut deep into his back. To read a detailed account of a scourging makes me shudder before we ever get to the cross itself.

So there were many more wounds. Sometimes we can get lost in such things.

[Guest tomk]

I'm not sure if we are on the same wave length. Maybe you mean the same thing I mean.

There was one nail which went through both ankles, thus making two wounds.

There was one spear thrust into his side which totals now 3.

There was one nail in each hand which totals 5.

Here some think this was all and that there were only five. Much has been (mistakenly) made about the symbolism of five. Silly things like the sand dollar being used to repressent the wounds.

There was also one nail in each wrist - total now 7.

But he was also wounded by the crown of thorns which was pressed down into his head, piercing deeply and drawing blood. It was more than just a pretty imitation crown made to mock his divine Kingship.

Also there were the wounds on his back from the scourging which cut deep into his back. To read a detailed account of a scourging makes me shudder before we ever get to the cross itself.

So there were many more wounds. Sometimes we can get lost in such things.

Do you present this as opinion or fact?

What are your sources?