Interesting Reason For Killing

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jul 4 2004, 09:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jul 4 2004, 09:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Nina@Jul 2 2004, 11:16 AM

Nephi killed Laban because the Lord told him to and because we would need the records ... I am not sure there was a bigger grander scheme between the lines although I would concede that the Lord probably has a miriad of reasons for everything He does given his omniscience.

As to why the brothers didn't go back to Jerusalem I think it was because they knew the truth. They just couldn't handle it. They were willing to fight and complain and murmur but they were not willing to just walk away. I have seen many people, member of a church, leave the church and then cling to their ties to it. They are afraid to stray too far, either because they know it is true but just can't live up to the effort, or because they feel they have to prove that they are right (in not believing or in believing something else). I have seen others just walk away and never look back. I think Laban and Lemuel were more likely the first. They seemed to be bound not only by their familial relationships but by their uncertainty(or fear?) ... 

I think of all of them I probably admire the ones who walk away and don't look back. They choose what side of the fence they belong on and go forth with conviction. It's not MY side of the fence but at least they are not standing ON the fence waiting to jump(or Fall) on me.

How could any of the Nephites (or Lamanites for that matter) be members of THE CHURCH? They all left the Middle East BEFORE Jesus was even born! AFTER Jesus died and came to visit (IF you buy that story) then they could be, but PRIOR to that?

I thought Jesus did not found his church until he was alive. It was then supposedly taken from the earth due to humanities evilness. Joe Smith was the instrument for it's "restoration". So how could any of the descendants of Nephi, et al, be members of THE CHURCH?

Also, if THE CHURCH was brought over to the descendants of Nephi,etc. but the TRUE CHURCH authority was stripped from all those back in the "old world", was it also taken from all those over here who ahd been baptized or converted when Jesus came over to visit after his death?

Questions questions questions

The Church...just as God....has always existed...it is covenants....and knowledge of God....not just an organization...

Organization changes....as needs and circumstances dictate....but God and His workings with His children has always existed.....

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Starsky+Jul 4 2004, 09:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starsky @ Jul 4 2004, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bizabra@Jul 4 2004, 09:33 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Jul 3 2004, 11:35 AM

I don't admire anyone who walks away from anything and doesn't look back....though I understand your point....

It is difficult to deal with people who are struggling with things ... in such a way that it draws from us a greater amount of charity, and conviction to allow them their struggle....

But....that is actually the place where we must be our best selves....so I am thankful for their needs....so that I can be of service....

Even if the thing they walked away from was abuse or poverty or a former life of crime or whatever? Wouldn't it be a good thing o "walk away and not look back" at a previous life that was deleterious to the person walking away?

I would say that a person who walks away from a life of alcoholism and who never looks back is admirable.

I would say that a person who tears themselves away from an abusive parent or spouse and goes on to live a good decent life and who never looks badk is admirable.

I would say that a person who leaves a life of crime and never looks back is admirable.

I don't believe you can be a whole person and not admit....as alcholics do....that they were an alcholic....or were abused or whatever...

You idea just doesn't hold water.....

No one leaves an abusive home....and not look back and try and put their lives together from....that past....they don't just pretend it doesn't exist....or live in deniel....with any success....

Theyhave to look back and deal with it.....work through it.....but always....looking back and seeing what they don't want to continue in.....and why...

I think you are mistaking....walking away....and walking away without looking back....at what they left....

But once a person does the examining and the deciding and all, then why "look back"?

I left an ugly abusive husband behind me long ago. I don't care about him anymore, he has no effect on my life. I rarely think of him and when I do I dismiss those thoughts ASAP. I see no usefulness in "looking back" at all. I did the thinking, I went through the process, I came out the other end whole again. No need to disect it anymore, just go on and live life without regrets.

I did learn a lot about myself in the whole process, but feel no need whatsoever to dwell upon it or him or even to think of it anymore. Except now I have, but only as an example. The life I lived with him is gone, the person I was is transformed into the me I am now.

Let it go, all the pain and humiliation and anger. It's gone like the wind and about as substantial. Nothing to be gained at all in looking back at it. I don't need to remember the specifics, the lessons learned have all been integrated and absorbed.

Move on. . . . .

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jul 4 2004, 09:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jul 4 2004, 09:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Starsky@Jul 4 2004, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by -bizabra@Jul 4 2004, 09:33 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Jul 3 2004, 11:35 AM

I don't admire anyone who walks away from anything and doesn't look back....though I understand your point....

It is difficult to deal with people who are struggling with things ... in such a way that it draws from us a greater amount of charity, and conviction to allow them their struggle....

But....that is actually the place where we must be our best selves....so I am thankful for their needs....so that I can be of service....

Even if the thing they walked away from was abuse or poverty or a former life of crime or whatever? Wouldn't it be a good thing o "walk away and not look back" at a previous life that was deleterious to the person walking away?

I would say that a person who walks away from a life of alcoholism and who never looks back is admirable.

I would say that a person who tears themselves away from an abusive parent or spouse and goes on to live a good decent life and who never looks badk is admirable.

I would say that a person who leaves a life of crime and never looks back is admirable.

I don't believe you can be a whole person and not admit....as alcholics do....that they were an alcholic....or were abused or whatever...

You idea just doesn't hold water.....

No one leaves an abusive home....and not look back and try and put their lives together from....that past....they don't just pretend it doesn't exist....or live in deniel....with any success....

Theyhave to look back and deal with it.....work through it.....but always....looking back and seeing what they don't want to continue in.....and why...

I think you are mistaking....walking away....and walking away without looking back....at what they left....

But once a person does the examining and the deciding and all, then why "look back"?

I left an ugly abusive husband behind me long ago. I don't care about him anymore, he has no effect on my life. I rarely think of him and when I do I dismiss those thoughts ASAP. I see no usefulness in "looking back" at all. I did the thinking, I went through the process, I came out the other end whole again. No need to disect it anymore, just go on and live life without regrets.

I did learn a lot about myself in the whole process, but feel no need whatsoever to dwell upon it or him or even to think of it anymore. Except now I have, but only as an example. The life I lived with him is gone, the person I was is transformed into the me I am now.

Let it go, all the pain and humiliation and anger. It's gone like the wind and about as substantial. Nothing to be gained at all in looking back at it. I don't need to remember the specifics, the lessons learned have all been integrated and absorbed.

Move on. . . . .

And that is my point...you didn't just walk away.....you had to work through it....first by looking back....and examining and evaluating what you wanted, what you didn't want, what was your fault, what was his...etc....

You didn't just walk away....

You had to make a journey.....and during that journey you were looking back....you now have arrived at a different place....where you no longer dwell or look back....hardly at all....but you always will have that experience as a reference point...and a thing you learned from......

Those who are in total deniel....who have burried those memories deep and don't look back......will never really move forward.....that is why I don't respect them....

[Setheus]

I dissagree. I think that you can "just walk away" from things.

I have taken lives and I never went through a "journey" or any of that to "get on with life".

My rifle and sidearms and myself are "fire and forget" weapons. I'll never go need to go to a shrink and I'll never feel the need to repent for the killings.

So how about that?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jul 4 2004, 02:51 PM

I dissagree. I think that you can "just walk away" from things.

I have taken lives and I never went through a "journey" or any of that to "get on with life".

My rifle and sidearms and myself are "fire and forget" weapons. I'll never go need to go to a shrink and I'll never feel the need to repent for the killings.

So how about that?

Interesting take on this Setheus....

Maybe it is because you have pre-dealt with it.....

IOW you dealt with it before you did it...or do it....

[Setheus]

That could be it. Its just part of a days work now.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 30 2004, 10:20 AM

Not only did Laban need to be killed to prevent him from killing Lehi and his family, but he need to be killed to keep Laman and Lemuel from being able to go back to Jerusalem....

If they had returned...they would have been put to death for the death of Laban....it was very wise of the Lord to have Laban killed.... :)

In general we need to understand scripture is a record of covenants made between man and G-d.

In general covenant blessing (result of covenant obedience) is protection from enemies, promised land, and life or enduring posterity.

In general covenant curse (result of breaking covenants) is being at the mercy of ones enemies, driven from covenant land and cut off from life and one’s posterity.

This is the standard law of kingdoms in ancient times. The spiritual parallel is obvious. Covenanting with G-d gives protection from our enemy, Satan. A promised land (a place in heaven). And life or resurrection and salvation.

As for Laban. We know something of his covenant with G-d because he was given stewardship of the brass plates and was a direct decedent of Ephraim. This would indicate that the Brass plates were part of the “stick of Ephraim”. There are a number of indications that Laban defied his covenants with G-d. It is not outside of ancient covenant that the replacement for a covenant breaker defeat the covenant breaker (execute according to law) to become the rightful care taker of the covenant. G-d could have given Nephi the Brass Plates by several means but the method employed in scripture indicates that G-d established his covenant with Nephi. Remember that it was understood anciently that a covenant breaker should be put to death under the law.

The Traveler

[Nina]

For the record ... what I meant when I wrote my post was that when someone makes a choice to leave the church (the LDS Church for example) and then puts others down for being a part of it, spends oodles of time justifying why they left, subscribes to member sites etc ... it seems to me that their desire to leave may be less than sincere that they are playing both sides of the team. I believe that Laman and Lemuel were among this type. They didn't want to obey but at the same time they didn't want to leave entirely ... I mean they could have just snuck off in the night if they really thought it was all a bunch of malarky (sp?).

When I said that I admired people who left (who made decisions) and didn't look back I guess what I was trying to say was that once you make a choice live it. Move forward. Rightly so ... examine, ponder, evaluate, search your soul if need be but then just move forward. Maybe you will revisit your choice and search some more at a later date but if you don't let go then you live between two things and that is not (usually) healthy.

[Jason]

Nina,

Have you ever left the mormon church?

Let me help you understand something....some scars take a long time to heal. Sometimes you must face your demons before you have the courage to move on. Many ex-mormons need time to lash out at those things that hurt them, just to be able to heal. It happened to me, and it will continue to happen to others who leave. There is a difference between those who are anti-mormons and those who are anti-mormonism. Im in the latter category, while a few, very few, profit from the former. Don't lump us all in together. That's a kin to saying that all believers in Joseph Smith are the same (including Community of Christ, Temple Loters, Varioius Polygamist groups, and so on).

Thanks for reading.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 5 2004, 04:13 PM

Nina,

Have you ever left the mormon church?

Let me help you understand something....some scars take a long time to heal. Sometimes you must face your demons before you have the courage to move on. Many ex-mormons need time to lash out at those things that hurt them, just to be able to heal. It happened to me, and it will continue to happen to others who leave. There is a difference between those who are anti-mormons and those who are anti-mormonism. Im in the latter category, while a few, very few, profit from the former. Don't lump us all in together. That's a kin to saying that all believers in Joseph Smith are the same (including Community of Christ, Temple Loters, Varioius Polygamist groups, and so on).

Thanks for reading.

Please forgive me if this seems harsh but Jesus never suggested that one can be healed by lashing out at anything - even if your were hurt by pure evil. The process of forgiveness is not moving on but having a change of heart. True forgiveness only comes by the loving G-d and his greatest creation - man. Not being able to forgive is just a loss of faith in the atonement of Christ.

The Traveler

[Jason]

"Please forgive me if this seems harsh but Jesus never suggested that one can be healed by lashing out at anything - even if your were hurt by pure evil."

Nothing to forgive. I would just admonish you to read the Scriptures before you make any more comments. For you see, even the Lord sometimes advocated what we may call violence:

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. (Luke 22:36-38)

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. (John 2: 14-16)

I suppose he lost faith in himself then?

[Traveler]

This explains a lot - I do not agree but I understand.

The Traveler

[Nina]

Ex-Mormon Jason< No, I have never left the Mormon church but I have left another church. Does that count? I have also left behind some very painful episodes in my life that have left very deep scars ... I understand that wounds have to heal and that sometimes that means confronting the demons that left the scars. I only meant that to hang on for an extended period of time to that very thing that caused the wound is not exactly healthy ... and indicates that the break or conviction might not be totally sincere ... and to clarify ...I was only using that as an example of how I feel Laman and Lemuel were behaving. They could have left in the middle of the night ... they didn't ... If they had a real conviction of the falseness of the Lords commands I think they would have perished in Jerusalem and not made it all the way to the Americas.

"Many ex-mormons need time to lash out at those things that hurt them, just to be able to heal."

I would agree that people who leave the mormon church might have the need to "lash out" for a time (just as many people do in other circumstances who feel wronged or deceived) but I guess my issue is for how long? and at whom? I think that if someone has a problem with the consistency of the LDS church history and leaves because of that then to lash out at its members is probably not appropriate to their healing. Likewise if someone has offended a member or deceived a member and that person chooses to leave the church as a result perhaps they should confront that person and not an entire congregation.

I am NOT insinuating that either of these is your own personal case I am just sighting them as examples. You are obviously a well liked and respected member of this board and I hope I did not offend you. I did not intend on "lumping" anyone. I tend to judge people individually. I find, however, since I moved to Utah that MANY of my neighbors who are not members of the LDS church or, indeed, former members, tend to judge ME sight unseen just because I am a member of the LDS church.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Nina@Jul 6 2004, 08:43 PM

Ex-Mormon Jason< No, I have never left the Mormon church but I have left another church. Does that count? I have also left behind some very painful episodes in my life that have left very deep scars ... I understand that wounds have to heal and that sometimes that means confronting the demons that left the scars. I only meant that to hang on for an extended period of time to that very thing that caused the wound is not exactly healthy ... and indicates that the break or conviction might not be totally sincere ... and to clarify ...I was only using that as an example of how I feel Laman and Lemuel were behaving. They could have left in the middle of the night ... they didn't ... If they had a real conviction of the falseness of the Lords commands I think they would have perished in Jerusalem and not made it all the way to the Americas.

"Many ex-mormons need time to lash out at those things that hurt them, just to be able to heal."

I would agree that people who leave the mormon church might have the need to "lash out" for a time (just as many people do in other circumstances who feel wronged or deceived) but I guess my issue is for how long? and at whom? I think that if someone has a problem with the consistency of the LDS church history and leaves because of that then to lash out at its members is probably not appropriate to their healing. Likewise if someone has offended a member or deceived a member and that person chooses to leave the church as a result perhaps they should confront that person and not an entire congregation.

I am NOT insinuating that either of these is your own personal case I am just sighting them as examples. You are obviously a well liked and respected member of this board and I hope I did not offend you. I did not intend on "lumping" anyone. I tend to judge people individually. I find, however, since I moved to Utah that MANY of my neighbors who are not members of the LDS church or, indeed, former members,  tend to judge ME sight unseen just because I am a member of the LDS church.

Maybe they just didn't want to leave their families, their aging parents, and remain alone back in Jerusalem with nothing, considering that Lehi packed it all up and left.

Would you stay behind, even if you had misgivings about the whole project?

I don't think a true conviction was required for them to go along with the plan. They could even completely disbelieve and still go along and not stay behind. It doesn't mean they had some tiny little seed kernal of belief inside them in the "truthfulness" of what their father was saying just because they went along.

I agree with you on moving on with your life and not looking back.

[Guest Starsky]

...I was only using that as an example of how I feel Laman and Lemuel were behaving. They could have left in the middle of the night ... they didn't ... If they had a real conviction of the falseness of the Lords commands I think they would have perished in Jerusalem and not made it all the way to the Americas.

Very good point Nina! :)

[Nina]

bizabra <"Maybe they just didn't want to leave their families, their aging parents, and remain alone back in Jerusalem with nothing, considering that Lehi packed it all up and left.

Maybe they just didn't want to leave their families, their aging parents, and remain alone back in Jerusalem with nothing, considering that Lehi packed it all up and left.

Would you stay behind, even if you had misgivings about the whole project?

I don't think a true conviction was required for them to go along with the plan. They could even completely disbelieve and still go along and not stay behind. It doesn't mean they had some tiny little seed kernal of belief inside them in the "truthfulness" of what their father was saying just because they went along."

You do make an interesting point :) ... but I should point out that Lehi DID NOT take everything. In fact later in the record you may recall that Nephi and his brothers return to Jerusalem to get the wealth they left behind so that they might obtain the records. Certainly if they(Laman and Lemuel) had returned they would have been quite comfortable and in the company of friends.

When I take into account the disposition of Laman and Lemuel as recorded in the Book of Mormon I can only conclude that if they had had absolute convictionthat the whole thing was a bunch of whooey that they would not have hesitated to return to Jerusalem.

As for whether or not I would stay behind and let my family go on if I had total disbelief and misgivings as to their journey (spiritual and temporal) I cannot say of a certainty. I know when I joined the LDS church they left me behind (or did I leave them? hmmmm.). They would not follow me if the prophet (let alone God himself) told me to go and do something in a far off land. I know THAT for a certainty! They would give me a hug and kiss, pack me a lunch, and send their love but they would not follow! Would I follow them thousands of miles to do something I totally do not believe in? I don't think so. I would miss them, I would love them, I would mourn, I would send my love unceasingly but I do not think I would go I would have to stay and follow what I believed was right, my own path.

[Jason]

Nina,

"Ex-Mormon Jason< No, I have never left the Mormon church but I have left another church. Does that count?"

I think so. Though it may depend on the level of activity you had with your former faith. If you weren't very involved, it may not have been a difficult break. If you were very involved, I would say it counts.

"I have also left behind some very painful episodes in my life that have left very deep scars ... I understand that wounds have to heal and that sometimes that means confronting the demons that left the scars. I only meant that to hang on for an extended period of time to that very thing that caused the wound is not exactly healthy..."

Agreed. In which case some professional therapy may be in order.

" ... and indicates that the break or conviction might not be totally sincere ... "

Well...I may disagree with this. It might mean that the simply don't know how to make the break. But it's likely tied in with the psychological makeup of the individual.

"and to clarify ...I was only using that as an example of how I feel Laman and Lemuel were behaving. They could have left in the middle of the night ... they didn't ... If they had a real conviction of the falseness of the Lords commands I think they would have perished in Jerusalem and not made it all the way to the Americas."

While I believe the BoM is only a fictional story, I can see your point.

"I would agree that people who leave the mormon church might have the need to "lash out" for a time (just as many people do in other circumstances who feel wronged or deceived) but I guess my issue is for how long? and at whom? I think that if someone has a problem with the consistency of the LDS church history and leaves because of that then to lash out at its members is probably not appropriate to their healing."

Unfortunately, the LDS Church doesn't have a complaint department. And since for most LDS, the Church is the Local Ward, that's the most logical place to voice your feelings.

"Likewise if someone has offended a member or deceived a member and that person chooses to leave the church as a result perhaps they should confront that person and not an entire congregation."

Im all for personal confrontation. Unless it's ward gossip. Then it's appropriate to stand up in testimony meeting, and chew out the entire ward! (IMHO)

"I am NOT insinuating that either of these is your own personal case I am just sighting them as examples."

I know. Since there seems to be no other way to "let it all out," message boards like this seem to be the sole outlet for the disenchanted.

"You are obviously a well liked and respected member of this board and I hope I did not offend you."

No offense taken.

"I did not intend on "lumping" anyone. I tend to judge people individually. I find, however, since I moved to Utah that MANY of my neighbors who are not members of the LDS church or, indeed, former members, tend to judge ME sight unseen just because I am a member of the LDS church."

That's true. I just left Utah (a.k.a. "the zion curtain"), and for the most part, feel more at ease here. Though about half of my hometown is LDS, the other half balances them out quite nicely.

As for your neighbors, they're probably suspicious when a new mormon moves into the neighborhood. They may be afraid that you'll try and convert them. I'd recommend avoiding all talk of religion, and just trying to be a good neighbor. They should warm up.

[Nina]

Ex Mormon Jason<"As for your neighbors, they're probably suspicious when a new mormon moves into the neighborhood. They may be afraid that you'll try and convert them. I'd recommend avoiding all talk of religion, and just trying to be a good neighbor. They should warm up"

Despite the fact that my church believes in proselyting I do not talk religion, for the most part, with my non-member friends and family specifically for that very reason...everyone thinks we are trying to convert them. Though I would love for everyone I know to embrace this gospel I do not want to push it on anyone... I didn't want it pushed on me. (I converted to this church in my mid-twenties).

I do talk about the LDS Church when they bring it up or when they make a disparaging comment or site some silly notion that they have about Mormons (usually false) that I feel should be put right but really all those instances are few and far between. I LIVE my religion and hope that that is good enough in the proselyting department.

I have lived in my neighborhood for six years and have been a fairly good neighbor and yet still I am judged because of my religion. So while I really appreciate your advice in my case I am not sure it will work because I have been doing that very thing and getting little positive result. In fact the nicer I am the more they dislike me. I think we will move out of state soon. I have never seen such a pre-conceived negative notion of Mormons as I have here in Utah.

Anyway, sorry for getting so far off track on this thread.

[Guest Peace]

Originally posted by Nina@Jul 7 2004, 05:20 PM

Ex Mormon Jason<"As for your neighbors, they're probably suspicious when a new mormon moves into the neighborhood. They may be afraid that you'll try and convert them. I'd recommend avoiding all talk of religion, and just trying to be a good neighbor. They should warm up"

Despite the fact that my church believes in proselyting I do not talk religion, for the most part, with my non-member friends and family specifically for that very reason...everyone thinks we are trying to convert them. Though I would love for everyone I know to embrace this gospel I do not want to push it on anyone... I didn't want it pushed on me. (I converted to this church in my mid-twenties).

I do talk about the LDS Church when they bring it up or when they make a disparaging comment or site some silly notion that they have about Mormons (usually false) that I feel should be put right but really all those instances are few and far between. I LIVE my religion and hope that that is good enough in the proselyting department.

I have lived in my neighborhood for six years and have been a fairly good neighbor and yet still I am judged because of my religion. So while I really appreciate your advice in my case I am not sure it will work because I have been doing that very thing and getting little positive result. In fact the nicer I am the more they dislike me. I think we will move out of state soon. I have never seen such a pre-conceived negative notion of Mormons as I have here in Utah.

Anyway, sorry for getting so far off track on this thread.

Where do you live in Utah that isn't mostly Mormons?

[Nina]

Well ... I live in a community in Davis County and I don't recall saying that my neighborhood wasn't mostly Mormon but , in fact, it is about fifty/ fifty. Actually if I count the neighbors within a few blocks it is more like 70/30 non-LDS/LDS.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 5 2004, 07:15 PM

"Please forgive me if this seems harsh but Jesus never suggested that one can be healed by lashing out at anything - even if your were hurt by pure evil."

Nothing to forgive. I would just admonish you to read the Scriptures before you make any more comments. For you see, even the Lord sometimes advocated what we may call violence:

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. (Luke 22:36-38)

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. (John 2: 14-16)

I suppose he lost faith in himself then?

I agree with Jason on this, there are times when action must be taken, but only when council from the Lord advocates it(in Nephi's case).

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Nina@Jul 9 2004, 12:04 PM

Well ... I live in a community in Davis County and I don't recall saying that my neighborhood wasn't mostly Mormon but , in fact, it is about fifty/ fifty. Actually if I count the neighbors within a few blocks it is more like 70/30 non-LDS/LDS.

It's because of Strawman Pro's like the Tanners, and the disgruntled that were still mixed in with the believers that came to the Valley with Brigham.

Even at the heart of Mormonism, Satan still has the opportunity to lead astray the hearts of men. With their itchy ears lending trust to Gainsayers, and the foundation of their faith built by the arm of men instead of the Word by which righteous are endowed the mysteries of the Kingdom.

[7layerdip]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Jul 13 2004, 08:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Jul 13 2004, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Nina@Jul 9 2004, 12:04 PM

Well ... I live in a  community in Davis County and I don't recall saying that my neighborhood wasn't mostly Mormon but , in fact, it is about fifty/ fifty. Actually if I count the neighbors within a few blocks it is more like 70/30 non-LDS/LDS.

It's because of Strawman Pro's like the Tanners, and the disgruntled that were still mixed in with the believers that came to the Valley with Brigham.

.

Can you provide a list of pioneers that came to Deseret with Brigham Young, that were disgruntled, or are you just making things up?

Also, what do you mean by "strawman pros"? Are you saying that the Tanners made up every argument that they have ever made? Feel free to explain. Please know that I am familiar enough with the Tanners' material that if you start spouting BS, which it seems your are prone to do, I'm going to call you on it.

Fire away, bucko.

[porterrockwell]

You want to be an antagonistic, sophmoric, mentally incoherent poster and then expect people to give you a red cent. Ok,......or not. If there is one thing that respectable, intelligent "Orthodox Christians" know, is that 1. Ed Decker is a complete sensationalist and 2. the Tanners are Strawman Pro's(The tanners are better than Ed though, at least they want nothing to do with that psycho). This is how bad the reasoning is in the camp of the anti these days. One of "astute" followers of Anti-Mormon propaganda(that I came in contact with)...said, and I quote,"Even IF Joseph Smith was a prophet of GOd, and the Book of Mormon is true, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints isn't true, it's just a colt following!"

Are you kidding me, after that, I stopped even talking to Anti's. Now, don't get me wrong, it doesn't bother me if you don't agree with Mormonism, that's your choice, that's what we are on this earth for. But when you attack and have to use "half-truths" and sensationalistic principles to fight the church(when it really doesn't fight back), then you are officially off the map when it comes to reason and reality.

[porterrockwell]

Oh and I don't have "pioneer lists", but I have very prominent heritage, and journals from some members of that time. And it definately was a time of faith when some didn't have it. And if you must have "proof" of my heritage as well, it's Joseph Smith, Parly P. Pratt, and George Benjamin Wallace(dedicated Northwest cornerstone of SLC Temple, had 6 apostles ordained in his house, his house was the meeting place for a great deal of meetings, campaigned for Joseph while he was running for Pres....I could go on but I think that is enough).