Vanhin

Hey walterkellar, No worries man. I think for the most part, we are interested in helping you in any way that we can, as limited and out of touch that our help is. :) Regards, Vanhin

I think along these lines as well. Christ having been born of the virgin Mary, was the seed of woman. Vanhin

Anytime brother. :) Vanhin

I know DigitalShadow. :) Sincerely, Vanhin

According to the revelation I quoted, the people would have falsified the documents, if it turned out that they were a perfect match after the retranslation. Just like many things having to do with God, physical evidence is not what converts people. The Lord knew their hearts. They clearly were not honorable people, or they would have returned the manuscript to Joseph to begin with. But let me explain something to you that you may not have thought of. The Prophet did produce the same story in "not the exact same words", but it was under the title 1 Nephi and 2 Nephi, and not Lehi, and it was authored by Nephi and not Lehi. That explains, perhaps, why the manuscript was lost for good. The conspirers, whoever they were, did not have a leg to stand on at that point, and their snare was in vain. Joseph clearly did the right thing. God in his wisdom forsaw this incident, and it served many purposes, including a very harsh lesson of obedience for Joseph. Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened. Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun. (D&C 10:1-3) Regards, Vanhin

DS, Faith is the evidence, and the witness you receive from God in return, is the proof. If you are seeking for the proof, before exercising faith, you will not find it until it's too late. You will receive no witness until your faith is tried (Ether 12:6). It's important to understand this, because you might actually be right on the verge of receiving the answers you seek to these questions. I believe the ball is in your court. It would actually be bad advice for me to suggest that you should believe in or act upon everything that ever comes before you in order for you to discern the truth of it. Say, for example, that I come to you and say, "Hey DS! I have discovered that we should worship rocks, but the only way to worship rocks properly is to shoot ourselves in the foot. Then we will mysteriously know that worshipping rocks is the right thing to do." You would probably tell me to go take a hike, because you already can tell that that is not right. But when someone tells you, "Hey DS, I have found that there is a God, and that by living his commandments, I have had greater happiness in my life. I know we cannot see God right now, but He has promised that if we earnestly seek him, by exercising faith in his Son, we can know for ourselves that it is true.", then that is a different story. Moving ahead in faith, in this instance, is not such a bad thing to do. For one, our message is good, and you have all the power within you to discern the difference between good and evil. We all do. For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. (Moroni 7:16) You've got to know that the Church and it's teachings are good, and the teachings lead people to be generally good. There are a lot of things said about the Church, but just based on the content of our message, it is fundementally good! So, in my opinion, that is reason enough to exercise faith, whatever that means in your case, and take that step into the unknown to determine whether it is of God or not. I personally think that the things you have been doing are in the right direction, and they at least demonstrate your desire to have faith. Which thing is prerequisite to actually having faith (see Alma 32:27). The proof is really "in the pudding" in this case. It's as simple as that, even though the trial of our faith may not be. :) Regards, Vanhin

You rock PC.... Sincerely, Vanhin

Absolutely. In the Book of Mormon, Nephi sees in vision the last days, and many of the things that would be revealed to John the revelator in the future. I think you will find this interesting. And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe. And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been. And he shall also write concerning the end of the world. Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men. And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see. But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them. And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel. And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel. (1 Ne. 14:18-27) Thank goodness Nephi stopped where he did... (see Rev. 22:18-19) Regards, Vanhin

DS, I don't see how the clearly instructive style, which is deliberate I might add, should be viewed as fictitious. It is meant to be scripture. The authors wrote the book by prophecy and revelation. The text itself reveals that they kept other records for the purpose of writing the details of their history. I see the Book of Mormon as a factual account because of the style, and the similarities and consistencies with other ancient Hebrew texts. That speaks to it's authenticity. For example, the Hebrew text of the Bible is full of chiasma, which (to quote Wikipedia) is "the figure of speech in which two or more clauses are related to each other through a reversal of structures in order to make a larger point; that is, the clauses display inverted parallelism." (Chiasmus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Here's an example from the Bible: A "Make the heart of this people fat, B and make their ears heavy, C and shut their eyes; C1 lest they see with their eyes, B1 and hear with their ears, A1 and understand with their heart, and convert [return], and be healed." (Bible: Isaiah 6:10) And here's one from the Book of Mormon: A "…but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves B and become as little children, C and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. D For the natural man E is an enemy to God, F and has been from the fall of Adam, F1 and will be, forever and ever, E1 unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, D1 and putteth off the natural man C1 and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, B1 and becometh as a child, A1 submissive, meek, humble…" (Book of Mormon: Mosiah 3:18-19) A complex and beautiful chiasmus in the Book of Mormon is the entire chapter of Alma 36. He could have. But it was wisdom in God that he didn't. I think if you really think about it, you would see that what happened was a plot by Satan to frustrate the work. God forsaw this, and thus prepared through Nephi the solution. Verily, I say unto you, that I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing. For behold, he has put it into their hearts to get thee to tempt the Lord thy God, in asking to translate it over again. And then, behold, they say and think in their hearts—We will see if God has given him power to translate; if so, he will also give him power again; And if God giveth him power again, or if he translates again, or, in other words, if he bringeth forth the same words, behold, we have the same with us, and we have altered them; Therefore they will not agree, and we will say that he has lied in his words, and that he has no gift, and that he has no power; Therefore we will destroy him, and also the work; and we will do this that we may not be ashamed in the end, and that we may get glory of the world. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that Satan has great hold upon their hearts; he stirreth them up to iniquity against that which is good; And their hearts are corrupt, and full of wickedness and abominations; and they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil; therefore they will not ask of me. (D&C 10:14-21) The 116 pages were lost, and have never been recovered. Regards, Vanhin

Thank you Carl. Since the topic is about theological uncertainties, I want to assure you that the knowledge of the nature of God and his relationship with us is not in the realm of uncertainty. Perhaps it is for you, and for others, because you do not accept our message. But it is not uncertain to me. It is as true as sunlight to me, because God himself has made it known to me. But here is the wonderful part - God is no respector of persons, and you can know it too. It is within your reach to make this question certain to your soul as well, if you will exercise the faith necessary to receive it. You don't have to wait until our mortal probation is over. I am a witness to you that God answers prayers, especially prayers of this nature. I invite you to ask God himself if He is the literal Father of your spirit. Ask him in the name of Jesus Christ, and do it in faith, believing that he will answer, and he will. Through the power of his Spirit, speaking to your spirit, He will answer in the affirmative. This I am quite confident about. This is the question He has been waiting so long for you to ask Him, because he wants you to know it without any doubt. To me this doesn't seem like an unreasonable challenge, but it's really up to you. This is how I know. I have asked God directly. No priests, pastors, or elders needed. Just you and God. Sincerely, Vanhin

ceeboo, We don't know all things. But what we do know, even a child can understand. The Bible teaches that we are the children of Heavenly Father. He is Christ's Father and ours too, or Jesus would not have taught us so. So if our spirits are his children, then he is an exalted and glorified Man. Our mortal bodies were created in his image. Thus we are the same species as He is. He is not a mysterious entity, but the Father of spirits. To know the Father, we must know the Son. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:6-9) The object of the Father is to exalt us like he is exalted, so that we might be partakers of his glory; and by his Only Begotten Son, does He accomplish his purposes. It's so simple - we are children of God - and this answers the question of who and what God is... :) Sincerely, Vanhin

Well I can see that. So, as far as scripture goes, in this thing the Book of Mormon is consistent with other volumes of sacred writ. :) But I don't see the storytelling in scripture as just allegory. I think the stories are based on factual events, except for the obvious parables. It's just more useful to tell the story simply in a way that highlights the lessons being taught. If you have ever attended an LDS meeting where a lesson was being taught, you will have noticed that we tend to draw upon real life experiences quite often to illustrate gospel principles. It would be counterproductive to relate all the details of a story, even the ones that have nothing to do with the point, and would take up too much time (or space in the case of the plates of Nephi). Sometimes we do try to tell way too much of the story, in an attempt to be complete, and the point is missed and people fall asleep. In the case of Nephi's writings, it is helpful also to bear in mind that he is writing this after the fact. God had commanded him to essentially duplicate his father's (Lehi's) record for a purpose unknown to him at the time. He was probably already in the Americas when he started writing the books of Nephi, so his accounts of the stories would have probably been simplified accordingly, and perhaps even exaggerated a little in his favor, since he already knew what had happened to his brothers. As it turns out, there was a purpose to Nephi's duplicate account. In 1828, against his better judgement, Joseph Smith allowed Martin Harris to take the 116 pages of what had been translated to his wife (and others to see). During this time the manuscript was lost... The 116 pages that were lost was the book of Lehi. They were never re-translated and instead the Books of Nephi furnish the relevant accounts of the record of his father. Anyway, I am glad you are reading the Book of Mormon. you will notice that eventually the first hand accounts end, when Mormon begins narrating and composing the book from historical and sacred records available to him. Regards, Vanhin

DS, No, thankfully my siblings have not tried to take my life (not that I represent Nephi in my family anyway), but there is enough contrast that I easily see the story as plausible. Dispite the blessings of the Lord in my life, many times over, I still sometimes make wrong choices... knowingly. Not to the extent that Laman and Lemuel did, but it doesn't seem out of place when you look to other scriptures for precedent. Despite any possible exaggerations, I certainly don't believe he exaggerated the actual events. An angel did appear to them, yet Laman and Lemuel continued in their disbelief. This only goes to show, that tangible/physical evidence, such as an angel appearing to someone, is not really the proof that we need about spiritual things. Judas Iscariot was an Apostle of the Lord - one of his Chosen - and walked and talked with Jesus Christ, and was a witness to his power. Yet he betrayed him to his death. Under the direction of Moses, Aaron caused all the water in the land of Egypt to turn to blood, and many other plagues, yet Pharaoh would not let the children of Israel go. Sincerely, Vanhin

DS, Well that's an interesting take on it. I have seen this kind of contrast many times, so seems pretty plausible to me. These forums should be enough evidence that people have different levels of faith, for example. Even within my own family I have seen siblings, who all have been raised the same way, deal differently with challenges in life, or questions of faith. To me the contrast seem to be in harmony with what I have experienced in life. However, the author of those passages was Nephi, and his stated purpose was to include things in the story that were of worth to the reader. And, there is definetly the possibility that he exaggerated or at least told the story in a way that focused on the point of the story more than the details. This was not his personal journal, but a sacred record he was commanded of God to write, and it was for the purpose of persuading men to come unto God. This is evident from what he wrote in 1 Ne. 6: And it mattereth not to me that I am particular to give a full account of all the things of my father, for they cannot be written upon these plates, for I desire the room that I may write of the things of God. For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved. Wherefore, the things which are pleasing unto the world I do not write, but the things which are pleasing unto God and unto those who are not of the world. Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men. (1 Ne. 6) Regards, Vanhin

No problem. Reformed Eqyptian appears to have been in very limited use only among the prophets and historians who kept the sacred record of the Nephites. This conclusion is drawn from the text itself. I think you will find the words of Moroni, the last prophet to write in the plates and the one who delivered them to Joseph Smith, very revealing. Towards the end of the record he wrote: Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words. Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father (Mormon), because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been. And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech. And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record. But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof. (Mormon 9:30-34) It appears that we are more likely to find a form of Hebrew, which appears to be their common tongue, than reformed Egyptian. But even the Hebrew will have been altered. I think if we had the plates and were able to translate them perfectly, the result would be pretty close. As convenient as it seems, it also appears from the text that no other people would know the language. I don't think that is very likely, but I guess it's possible. I believe Joseph Smith translated the record exactly the way God intended for him to translate it, and that the translation was given to him by divine means. He did not become an expert at ancient things or even reformed Egyptian, and he did not need to constantly check and recheck his translation. It was given to him, and he dictated it to whoever was his scribe at any give time. He would correct the scribe with the proper spelling and so forth, as it was received. The following article is great on this topic. LDS.org - Ensign Article - “By the Gift and Power of God†Regards, Vanhin

DS, While folks are answering your questions I wanted to ask what you thought about the messages found in the Book of Mormon. For instance, when Lehi asked his sons to go back to Jerusalem to obtain the brass plates, what did you think about the contrast between the way Laman and Lemuel reacted and the way Nephi reacted to the request? Regards, Vanhin

I think it's quite clear from the text that Laban's sword was of "precious steel" (1 Nephi 4), and that Nephi fashioned swords based on the sword of Laban to prepare for the defence of his people (2 Nephi 5). I think they had metal swords, like what we think of when we think of swords, but I don't think that what was translated as "sword" is necessarily a metal sword in every case. I believe the same character used to write "sword" in reformed Egytian was used to write other similar weapons. The same I think is true for other words like "horse", "elephant", and so forth. I also don't believe that the use of metal swords was widespread among the people beyond the time of Nephi. However, the Anti-Nephi-Lehies did say that their swords (metaphorically) had become "bright", and they wished not to stain them with blood. Which to me lends support to the idea that they had at least a knowledge of metal swords. I think they had metal swords, as well as other swordlike weapons. Vanhin

prisonchaplain, Thank you for the wonderful introduction, and the great question. There are, of course, many things in the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ that give answers to many important questions in life. But it has also created new questions, that we do not have answers to yet. There are great and many things that we are not prepared for yet, but we have hope to receive them, either while here in mortality, or in the eternal life to come. An article of our faith states: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." (AoF 1:9) Our progression, as children of God, is all about increasing our knowledge, until we know all things. This endeavor, is what the plan of salvation is all about. Our excursion into mortality has a two-fold mission. We come to gain a physical body, without the which, further aquisition of knowledge is impossible, and we come to learn by our own experience the difference between good and evil, and to hopefully choose good in the process. Our bodies and these experiences are necessary for us to reach the potential made possible by our Father and his Christ, because without them, we are damned and cannot progress further. It's all about the gaining of that knowledge, which our scriptures call light and truth, or in other words, intelligence. Consider the following passages of modern revelation, they are the words of Jesus Christ. "The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy." (D&C 93:26-34) Our time here on earth, is but a drop in the eternities past and future. Yet, it is a vital time in our existence. This is where we learn to live by faith and obedience through our own experience. But to survive, we need the Redeemer of mankind. It is the atonement of Jesus Christ that makes the resurrection possible, and it is the atonement of Jesus Christ that makes it possible for us to repent, and become clean again of the mistakes made in mortality, that ultimately allows us to continue our progression in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever. So, we are comfortable with the knowledge and uncertainty that God affords us at this time. We know the Father's plan is perfect, and we trust His perfect Son, who is our Master. At the same time, we seek more light and truth and look forward to the day when all things are revealed to us. This light and truth is gained through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, and that is why we cannot be saved in ignorance. Sincerely, Vanhin

Hey OtterPop, Of course I do not believe that physical ailments continue with us at death. I believe that: 1) God is perfectly Just and Merciful. 2) Those who are not accountable for their actions in this life are not condemned. Little children below the age of accountability are certainly not accountable for their actions. Some people with serious mental illness are not accountable, but not everyone with mental illness is in that catergory. My words were for those who are accountable, and I am confident that they know who they are. Regards, Vanhin

walterkellar, Reactive attachment disorder is no doubt a diffcult challenge to just "buck-up" to, and I certainly don't discount your very real pain. I cannot imagine what it is like to not be able to feel being loved. Do you ever recall feeling loved? How do you suppose being loved feels like, or how would you recognize it? Sincerely, Vanhin

Elphaba, my friend. For those of us who are accountable for our actions, suicide will not bring relief to agony, instead it will bring added agony and guilt to our immortal spirits. Death is not the end of us, only the end of our mortal bodies. Our spirits will live on, and will carry all our memories with us. Sincerely, Vanhin

Hey Walterkellar, I am curious about your unfulfilled expectations. What could cause somoeone to feel such bitterness and despair? Is it something you could ellaborate on, or is it too personal for such a public forum? I can assure you that God is no respector of persons, and loves you as much as He loves me or anyone else. His love for us is such, that he provided away for us to escape death and Hell, so that we could survive this mortal test. He has done everything for us that he can, without taking away our freedom to choose for ourselves. Faith in Jesus Christ, and in his atonement, is the relief you seek. The reality is that our spirits are eternal, and your hasty escape from this world, prematurely, will not bring you the relief that you seek for. Instead, you will find yourself in a condition that makes it difficult beyond measure to work out your salvation, because you will no longer have your body. You will still have the regret, bitterness, and despair that you now have, and you will have the added disappointment of your last bad decision in mortality. Please, if you are considering that option, reconsider... All of us who have entered this mortal life will be resurrected at some future time, and we will be judged according to our hearts, thoughts, words, and actions. However, I am not in a position to judge the final state of any who pass from this life to the next. I only know what the scriptures teach us. He who has suffered it all, and has been below, even what you could imagine, will judge us both in justice and mercy. The pain that he suffered for us caused him, "even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—" (D&C 19:18). There truly is a better way. Learn of the Savior, and follow his ways, and don't put off the changes in your life, because that is the way to the relief that you seek. I promise you that. Sincerely, Vanhin

Ceeboo, I lived in Birmingham for a few months with my parents after I came home from serving as a missionary. I was attending the singles ward, where I met my wife. After we were married, we attended a couple of different wards in the same stake, including the Pontiac branch. The Detroit Temple had not yet been built at that time, so we were sealed in the Toronto Temple in Canada. However, before I moved to Colorado, we were able to attend the new temple several times. Look up bishop Kunz, and tell him Esa says hello! :) Regards, Vanhin

The type of killing that is unforgivable, is synonymous with blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. When a member of the Church receives the new and everlasting covenant, and it has been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise - meaning God has accepted it - and then they murder by shedding innocent blood, they have committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:26-27) Murderers who have not entered into the new and everlasting covenant, should turn to the Lord and do everything they can to repent. Ultimately, God will judge them in perfect justice and mercy. The Anti-Nephi-Lehies were an example of people who had murdered and repented of their sins. This is one of the reasons why they made a covenant not to take up arms against their brethren any more, because they feared committing the unpardonable sin at that point. And we know that "they are blessed, for they have gone to dwell with their God." (Alma 24) Sincerely, Vanhin

Ceeboo, The Temple in Michigan is in Bloomfield Hills, right off of Woodward. There is also one of our meeting houses that shares the parking lot with the temple. I used to live there and go to that building (and attend that Temple when it was finally built). Vanhin P.S. I just noticed kathysmike already furnished you with this info... :)