Vanhin

When I was preparing to serve a mission, I had a desire to find out for myself about the truthfulness of our message. I had been a member my whole life, and I believed everything to be true, but I had never actually asked God to tell me personally. Like HiJolly I had had spritiual experiences in my life, even some miraculous experiences, and I counted them as witnesses of truth. Those experiences formed the basis for my fledgeling testimony. But, I want to ask, and receive. So, one night I knelt at my bedside and prayed. I asked God to let me know for myself if the Book of Mormon was true. I was already studying it everyday, and had pondered the message in my mind and in my heart. All that was left was to ask. So, I did. After the prayer I waited a while, listening, but I neither heard nor felt anything different. I then went to sleep. The next morning I woke up and began my daily Book of Mormon study, and the moment I opened the pages and started to read, I was overwhelmed with the Spirit. I was reminded of all the times when I had felt the Spirit before, and I remember thinking to myself "You know it is true. You already know." It wasn't an emotional feeling, though, I became emotional and wept, but it was an intelligent feeling. I felt a desire to serve God and to become more like Jesus Christ. I cannot explain the way I felt any better than that, but I know just as surely as I know that I am typing this now, that the Book of Mormon is true. I'm so grateful for that knowledge. I feel that because of that personal witness, when I testify to others about the Book of Mormon, that the power of the Spirit is present. Sincerely, Vanhin

This is from a statement made by the First Presidency of the Church in 1909 concerning evolution: "It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was “the first man of all men” (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. It was shown to the brother of Jared that all men were created in the beginning after the image of God; whether we take this to mean the spirit or the body, or both, it commits us to the same conclusion: Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father. True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man." Here's the whole article, it's interesting reading -> LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Origin of Man We are taught that God placed plants and animals on the earth and commanded them to multiply and replentish the earth, each after it's kind. It is the official doctrine of the Church that Adam was the first man on this earth. I would ask the question, if God created man through a process of evolution, then what species was the parents of Adam's body, if not man? What species could give birth to a human? The way humans are created of the dust of this earth is quite simple, actually. There's no mystery there, and we don't need a revelation to know it. My wife and I have participated in this miraculous process four times already. Check out my children -> Vanhin’s Profile » LDS Mormon Network. It's not any more complicated than that. Regards, Vanhin

It will be with Christ just like it is with the Father. Speaking of Christ, I will never view the Creator of worlds without number and the Redeemer of mankind, as anything less than my Lord and my God. He is more than our Brother, or a great prophet, or our Most High Priest. When the veil is lifted, I think for the first time in the eternities, we will truly understand what Christ has done for us, and what the Father has done for us in sending his Son. But hopefully before that time, we will understand who Christ truly is. Those who are faithful to their testimonies of Christ will be heirs to the Kingdom of God, and will dwell in the presence of God the Father and his Christ forever. Not only is Christ completely submissive to the will of the Father, he is endowed with His power and authority, and he even looks like Him. Christ taught that if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father also. There's so much truth in the following scriptures: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:6-9) The Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery saw the Lord in the Kirtland Temple: The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened. We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber. His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying: I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father. (D&C 110:1-4) I long for the day, however, when Jesus will call me his friend. And again I say unto you, my friends, for from henceforth I shall call you friends, it is expedient that I give unto you this commandment, that ye become even as my friends in days when I was with them, traveling to preach the gospel in my power; (D&C 84:77) So, it is reasonable to believe that we are commanded to become friends with the Father as well. We will learn that God truly is our Father, the perfectly loving and kind Father that we strive to be to our children. One more scripture: That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:3) Sincerely, Vanhin

Thanks. I guess I'm not in a position to judge one way or another about whether the missionaries lied to you or not. Having been a missionary, I guess I would go along with what FlaviusHambonius said. It's more likely that they really had no clue and really believed that some of that stuff must not be true. But it's hard to say. My companion and I actually had a Pentecostal and a Baptist (who were street contacting together???) greet us once and bring the Adam-God theory up and they challenged us for an answer. I guess I had heard about it, but I really didn't know anything about it, but I answered them like this, "If Brigham Young said that and it went through the proper process and became official doctrine of the Church, then it must be true." They really didn't know what to say to that. My companion had never heard about it. Next we bore testimony that we knew of ourselves, by the Holy Ghost, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and so was Brigham Young!! I have personally never really known anyone to flat out lie about things like that. I have known plenty of people who were simply not informed or who were in denial. My mother, bless her heart, was convinced that polygamy was just a lie that anti-mormons made up about us. She had a testimony of the Church and rather than let accusations like that affect her, she simply refrained from even entertaining the possibility that there was truth to it... That was until one day my brother and I had her read D&C 132... That was a hard for her to accept, but it was important, because I believe we need to be prepared for things like that. We have nothing to be ashamed of. In the Missionary Training Center, we are not trained on how to answer things like that. We prepare spiritually to teach the basic and simple truths of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. We are also trained on how to ask questions and listen to others and to try to really care about what others think and feel. You know things 19 year old boys should learn before attempting to teach others. We also learn how to listen to and teach by the Spirit, and how to help others learn by the Spirit. I think I would have been like the other missionaries who tried to find the answers for you. Anyway, I'm glad those questions don't bother you anymore. Sincerely, Vanhin

NormalMormon, Good news! Also check out Ether 3 Sincerely, Vanhin

ktfords, Well, by now I hope you are thinking twice about listening to the advice of your friend. I hope that you have at least read the posts presented to you by the Latter-day Saints on these forums. They represent our faith, which is in Jesus Christ. We seek with all that we have to follow his teachings. We confess with our lips, our hearts, and our deeds, that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. As far as arguing with your friend goes, I'll let the Master answer that: And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away. (3 Ne. 11:29) Regards, Vanhin

Hey Rachelle, I totally agree with telling the truth part. When I was a missionary, if someone would ask me about "polygamy" for example, I saw no reason to say anything except the truth; it was commanded of God back then, and is still a doctrine of this Church (see D&C 132). We are simply not authorized to practice it any more. Those who were obedient to this principle showed great faith, and the Lord blessed them for it. I would then explain that beyond that we, as representatives of the Church, had nothing else much to say about it and would rather talk about the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ, and about how mankind can be redeemed from the effects of sin because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The missionaries are there to preach the gospel and to prepare people for the ordinances of baptism and confirmation. I'm curious. What did the missionaries lie to you about? I bet I'm not the only one wondering about that. Regards, Vanhin

I was really touched by your post bytor2112. Thank you so much for sharing it. This is the scripture that came to mind while reading it: And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. (Ether 12:6) Sincerely, Vanhin

I'm a little lost on what you two are talking about. Just one quick point, just in case it is needed... It is beyond speculation that "I AM" is one of the titles of Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ who appeared to Moses in much the same manner that he did to the brother of Jared at an earlier time. Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins; (D&C 29:1) (see also Guide to the Scriptures: I Am) And this quote from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: To Moses, Jehovah identified himself by the title "I AM THAT I AM"-a variation on the verbal root of YHWH (Ex. 3:14) (Jehovah, Jesus Christ - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism) It is beyond dispute that Jesus Christ is the Holy One of Israel, and in almost every case where the Father is identified as the one speaking in scripture, it is, in fact, Jehovah who is speaking as the Father. He is completely authorized to do so. :) In 1916 the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following doctrinal statement on the relationship between the Father and the Son: "Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; …and since that period in His resurrected state" (MFP 5:31-32). The Book of Mormon, like no other book, establishes the divinity of Christ beyond any doubt. My last quote of the post: The Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men... (Mosiah 3:5) I don't know how else to say it. The scriptures are before us. Jesus Christ is not just our Elder Brother, and he's not just a councilor in the Presidency of Heaven, He is the "Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity", and the God of all the prophets from Adam to Thomas S. Monson. In him is the Father and the Son, and only through him can we return to the Father and be exalted with our families. Sincerely, Vanhin

Of course God the Father, is the source of all truth and light, which truth and light proceeds from Him through Christ, and fills the immensity of space (D&C 88:3-13). But the way we gain knowledge is by the power of the Holy Ghost. The Father sends the Holy Ghost, and He speaks Spirit to spirit in such a way that once He has testified of something to us, we know that thing. That's why blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is so serious. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26) A more correct statement, in my humble opinion, would have probably been that the source of truth and light is God, and that through the power of the Holy Ghost, we can know the truth of all things. Regards, Vanhin

ktfords, I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me? Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us? I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine. I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is. Consider the words of the Savior: Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 17:16-17) It is in living the commandments that true understanding or knowledge is obtained. This is at the heart of our mortal experience, and this seems to be the principle that eludes you in this discussion. Let me enlighten you on a couple of key factors when trying to understand Mormon doctrine. 1) We really, and I mean for real, do believe that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Eternal Father. This is not just a metaphor to us, it is a reality. He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and is all powerful, all loving, and present everywhere through his Spirit. He also has a glorified, perfect, and tangible body of flesh and bone. 2) As children of God, we have the potential to "grow up" and be like Him. This earthly experience is part of our Heavenly Father's plan for us to reach that end. A fundamental part of this plan is our agency to choose for ourselves. 3) We come to earth to gain bodies for ourselves, and to progress spiritually by having opportunities to choose for ourselves between good and evil. As both a blessing and a protection, we are to complete this experience without a remembrance of our former lives in the premortal world, and thus we are to live by faith. 4) Because of our condition in mortality, we sometimes make wrong choices and sin. Sin makes us unworthy to return to the presence of Father. We must become clean of our sins, but we lack the power or the grace to satisfy the demands of perfect justice. In other words, we cannot become clean on our own merits alone. 5) Also, because the bodies we now have are mortal, we will lose them at death, and would not be able to achieve one of the purposes that we came here for. 6) A loving, all powerful, all knowing God, knew this would happen. So, he provided a Savior to Atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who under the direction of the Father created the heavens and the earth, was appointed to be the Savior. God himself atoned for the sins of the world. 7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father. 8) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become clean of our sins before that day of judgement. The Atonement enables us the ability to repent. Without the atonement, no amount of pleading, restitution, confession, or forsaking would save us from our fallen state. The fact that we can repent at all is made possible because of the merits of Christ. This last point is what is relevant to this discussion. The ultimate meaning of us becoming perfect, like our Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ is perfect, is arrived at after the resurrection, when we enter the presence of our God, with our immortal glorified bodies, having been made clean by the blood of the Lamb. It is at the point of our judgement that the question of whether we have done everything we could do must be answered. Because this life is a learning experience, we will not be deprived of our chance to learn. That fundamental agency that I mentioned above, is respected by God. He allows us to choose damnation or eternal life. By following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and because of his Atonement, we can escape the awful condition we have brought upon ourselves through transgression, but we must choose it ourselves. We must, as Paul taught, "work out" our "salvation with fear and trembling" before the Lord (Philip. 2:12). We must qualify for exaltation by making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord, starting with baptism. We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ through repentance and obedience for the remainder of our lives after our baptism. God is not going to do it for us. He has done everything for us already without taking away our agency. We are learning vital lessons that can only be learned in this condition, and we are learning to become like our Father. It's just like parenthood in this life. There comes a time when we must let our children choose for themselves, or they will never truly learn or come to know anything on their own. But none of this would be possible without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So, we owe it all to him. We are happy to work, and are happy to progress. It brings us great joy to have this opportunity, and we have our Father and his Christ to thank for it. Sincerely, Vanhin

Well it happens so rarely, in my experience, that I don't associate it with the rote repetition of insincere prayer. I guess repetious prayers of any kind are to be avoided, but as far as praying for God to forgive us our debts, in a public setting, I see nothing inherently wrong with that since Christ himself taught us to pray using that kind of language. Sure, his prayer is a "template", and we don't repeat his prayer verbatim, but it is safe to assume than the points of his prayer are all good things to include in our own prayers. Praying for forgiveness, in any case, is not the same as repentance. It's merely a part of the process. What is also required is a broken heart, contrite spirit, restitution, confession, and the forsaking of sin. When Christ prayed to the Father to forgive those who nailed him to the cross (Luke 23:34), that did not automatically remit their sins; if they received forgiveness, it was through complete repentance. There is no forgiveness without it, but it certainly didn't hurt for the Savior to plead their case witht he Father. Likewise, I don't see any harm in praying for God to forgive us of our debts as we forgive others. The way I see it, it can only help! Anyway, I guess I am real leery about being too critical about the heartfelt prayers of others to their Heavenly Father, unless they start doing something really weird. When we pray for a group or congregation, we should listen to what the Spirit whispers to our hearts, and seek to know by it what we should pray for. In that light, I wouldn't put it past the Spirit to inspire someone to plead in faith for God to forgive those who are present of their sins. Regards, Vanhin

I have no issues with that. The Lord himself used similar wording when he said. "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. " (Matt. 6:9). Of course, it would be inappropriate in a public setting to say, "Father forgive Jason for viewing pornography, and forgive Emily for...". Whenever I hear someone pray for forgiveness for the people in attendance, in general terms that is, I feel grateful. Forgiveness of sin is certainly among the "needs and concerns of the group" in my opinion. At least if others are anything like me, a sinner. But maybe it's just me... Sincerely, Vanhin

My take on this is the following: In the Bible, Jesus commanded his disciples, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48), and he taught the Nephites after his resurrection, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." (3 Ne. 12:48). It is clear that God expects us to be perfect, like He is perfect. This is doctrine found in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon; so, I'm not making this up, nor is it unique to the teachings of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. That's a tall order, I will concede that. However, we should not despair. From the scriptures we have the assurance that even this seemingly impossible thing, is possible. Nephi taught that "...the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." (1 Ne. 3:7). First, the question is, do we believe the scriptures? I do. I believe the scriptures. I believe that God commands us to be perfect, and that He cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance" (D&C 1:31), and I also believe that he has prepared a way for us to accomplish this commandment. So, the second question is, what is this way that He has prepared? I trust that we all agree on the way. Jesus taught: ...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6) The way is the teachings and Atonement of Christ. In order for us to be cleansed of our sins in preparation to return to the presence of the Father, we must 1) have faith in Jesus Christ and in his Atonement, 2) repent of our sins, 3) be baptized by immersion for the remission of our sins, 4) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and 5) endure to the end by relying wholly upon the merits of Christ. It is the last step that I want to expound upon; the part about enduring to the end. When we repent of our sins, and are baptized by water and fire (gift of the Holy Ghost), we receive a remission of our sins. We become new creatures, born again of the Spirit, and sinless like new born babes. The slate is wiped clean and all our former sins are wiped away, or remitted. God expects us to keep it that way, and He has sent the Holy Ghost to help us and sanctify us along the way. However, He is an all wise and all knowing God, and knew before hand that we, as imperfect mortals, would sin again. Our tendencies and weaknesses are not wiped away at baptism, and many things continue to challenge us until we have, through Christ, overcome them. Thank God for the ordinance of the Sacrament. It allows us weekly to retain a remission of our sins. After faith and complete repentance, it allows us to be "baptized again". Repentance is not complete, nor are our sins remitted without baptism. Partaking of the sacrament allows us to retain that remission of sins and to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, so that our repentance can be completed. Some sins are quickly repented of, and we learn our lessons, never to commit them again. In other cases our sins require a little work, and may take years to overcome. We may go through periods of failure and victory, until we have truly forsaken our sins. The Lord revealed that: By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them. (D&C 58:43) In this way, step by step, and precept upon precept, we put away the natural man and become truly converted, and perfected in Christ. When we partake of the Sacrament worthily, and receive all the saving ordinances, we are eventually sanctified and sealed unto God by the Holy Spirit of promise. This is what the scriptures mean by making our garments (or robes) white by the blood of the Lamb (1 Nephi 12, Revelation 7). It's a process, and it is one of the reasons our lives have been prolonged; that we might have time to repent (2 Ne. 2:21). I end with the final words of the Book of Mormon, which were written by the prophet Moroni: Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:32-33) Sincerely, Vanhin

Justice, That's right. It is the Father who commands us by saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear him!". And the Son teaches us to pray to the Father, and to worship him. And the Holy Ghost testifies of both the Father and the Son. Our worship is centered in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which is central to the Plan of Salvation. Thanks for your thoughts. I want to expound upon that a little. I think it is important for us to acknowledge the godhood of Jesus Christ. Many in the Christian world use statements like the one by Bruce R. McConkie, that was quoted earlier, as evidence that we do not worship Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is Jehovah, the Lord of the Universe, and the God of the whole earth (Isa. 54:5). He is the Holy One of Israel! There are two ways that we are children of God. The first way is that we are begotten spirit children of Heavenly Father. Nothing can really change that. But in order for us to become heirs to his kingdoms and to his glory, we must become spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Christ. King Benjamin taught this: And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. (Mosiah 5:7) It is only through Christ and his Atonement that we can become begotten sons and daughters unto God in that sense; meaning heirs to the kingdom of God (4 Ne. 1:17). Indeed the entire Plan of Salvation is enabled because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and it is by, through, and of Jesus Christ that all things exists and our progression made possible. For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:23-24) Our declaration of Christ's divinity is "unequivical and without compromise". It's no wonder that Nephi taught his people to worship the Father in the name of Christ, and to worship Jesus Christ. And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Ne. 15:16,29) Those are unmistakeable words. I love how the Book of Mormon testifies of the divinity of Christ. The Christian world should embrace this new volume of scripture; it truly is Another Testament of Jesus Christ. It is the faithful testimony of Jesus Christ that qualifies us for membership in the Church of the First Born and heirs to exaltation. Check this out: They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things— They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God— Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. And they shall overcome all things. Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet. These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. (D&C 71:51-62) Sincerely, Vanhin

bytor2112, Thanks, the scriptures don't confuse me. You are welcome to believe as you will, but I cannot compromise on this. This Latter-day Saint worships God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ, and I do it in Spirit and truth, as the prophets and apostles have before me, and as our modern prophets and apostles do today. "I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod. I’ll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan’s grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above." Sincerely, Vanhin

I believe in true biblical Christianity. Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, and that its teaching is the final authority (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Hey krfords, Christians believe all kinds of things. For example, Latter-day Saints, who are followers of Jesus Christ, believe in Christianity as practiced anciently in the New Testament as well. So, from that stand point you are in good company. However, based on the scriptures from the Bible you provided, it cannot be established that the Bible is "the final authority". In fact, the scriptures you cited prove the opposite. Let's start with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim. 3:16-17) This verse is certainly not describing the Bible as the final authority. What this verse is saying, is that All scripture is given by inspiration of God. We call that revelation, and it further states that the scriptures are profitable for our salvation. Besides, the New Testament, as we have it now, did not exist at this point. So, if Paul is talking about the established scripture of their day, he is talking about the writings of the Old Testament. By your logic then, the New Testament becomes an addition to the "final authority" years later when the Christian Bible is canonized. Let's look at the other scripture next. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21) These verses are a beautiful illustration of the need for living prophets to interpret scripture. Peter, who himself was the chosen mouthpiece of the Lord in the ancient Church, is explaining that we receive scripture by way of holy men of God, who speak as they are moved by the Spirit of prophecy, which is the Holy Ghost. He further highlights the fact that they must be interpreted by that same Spirit. Both of these scriptures are in perfect harmony with Latter-day Saint teachings, and in no way indicate that the Christian Bible is the final authority. It indicates that God himself is the final authority. We do not worship scripture, we worship the living God, and his living Son, and we believe that the way he reveals his will to us today is through living prophets, just like he did anciently. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (Articles of Faith 1) Regards, Vanhin

The Atonement of Jesus Christ was in fulfilment of the law of Moses along with many of it's rituals and observances. The law of Moses was given to point towards and to prepare for the coming of the Messiah (2 Ne. 25:24-30). But another thing that was done away with by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, was sacrifice by the shedding of blood, Christ being the great and last sacrifice; the Lamb of God (Alma 34:10-14). Though these ritualistic sacrifices were performed under the law of Moses, the law of sacrifice was instituted during the days of Adam (Moses 5:5-7). Under the law of Moses, the offerings and sacrifices were administered by the Aaronic priesthood under the direction of the Aaronic High Priest, who was a firstborn male descendant of Aaron. The priests and the levites each carried out their duties in preparing the sacrifices and offerings brought by the people to the tabernacle (and temple later). After the Atonement and the institution of the Sacrament, the Aaronic priesthood continued to officiate over the offerings and sacrifices of the people under the direction of the Bishop of a congregation; who stands in the office of the Aaronic High Priest. The priests and levites (teachers and deacons) administer the Sacrament. They perform in the exact same role as they did during the law of Moses, except instead of animal sacrifices and offerings, the Saints bring to the altar an offering of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. This ordinance is done in rememberance of the Lamb of God, and his Atonement, and it renews the covenants we make at baptism. (2 Ne. 9:20) The Sacrament covers a lot of ground actually, and is a most sacred ordinance of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. The Aaronic priesthood has been restored, and so has the Melchizedek priesthood. A literal male descendant of Aaron has a right to the office of bishop, if he is called and worthy, but a high priest after the order of Melchizedek can hold this office as well (D&C 106:16-17). Which is the case in most if not all congregations to date (as far as I know). Regards, Vanhin

Joseph Smith learned later, that both God the Father and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost does not have a body, but is a personage of Spirit only. (D&C 130:22) Our physical bodies look like our spirits, in that they have arms, legs, head, eyes, etc... Through modern revelation we learn that spirit is matter: There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7) If we could see the Holy Ghost right now, we would see that he is a Man without a physical body. When the brother of Jared saw the finger of the Lord, God showed himself to the brother of Jared: And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak? And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie. And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:11-16) Regards, Vanhin

I highly respect Bruce R. McConkie, and he is one of my favorites. However, I don't think he would completely agree with his own statement in last part of his life. It is also notable that the above quote is not found at lds.org, and is not in harmony with many teachings of the prophets and apostles both ancient and modern who worshipped God the Father as the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and His Only Begotten Son, as the Christ; and who had personal relationships with the Son of God. He was an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, and bore powerful testimony of Him. In his final conference talk, McConkie testified (emphasis added): "And now, as pertaining to this perfect atonement, wrought by the shedding of the blood of God—I testify that it took place in Gethsemane and at Golgotha, and as pertaining to Jesus Christ, I testify that he is the Son of the Living God and was crucified for the sins of the world. He is our Lord, our God, and our King. This I know of myself independent of any other person." (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Purifying Power of Gethsemane) And as I also pointed our in another thread, the Hymn "I Believe in Christ" reveals a different message about the divinity of Christ. It's worth posting here as well: 3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod. I’ll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan’s grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above. 4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme! From him I’ll gain my fondest dream; And while I strive through grief and pain, His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.” I believe in Christ; so come what may, With him I’ll stand in that great day When on this earth he comes again To rule among the sons of men. 31243, Hymns, I Believe in Christ, no. 134 Text: Bruce R. McConkie, 1915–1985. You might also ask the Brother of Jared about gaining a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or Nephi, or Alma the younger. I submit that in order for us to worship the Father, we must also worship his Son, and in order for us to truly know the Father, we must know the Son. They are one. To the Brother of Jared, the pre-mortal Christ said: Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. (Ether 3:14) The prophet Abinadi taught that God himself would redeem his people: And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. (Mosiah 15:1-4) I love the Book of Mormon. It stands as an undisputable witness of the divinity of Christ. In it's title page we learn that the Book was for the purpose of "convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God" (Title Page). In the Book of Ether we learn about the blessings bestowed upon those who serve God. Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written. (Ether 2:12) And during the final period of time recorded in the Book of Mormon, the true Christians were described as worshipers of Jesus Christ: Therefore the true believers in Christ, and the true worshipers of Christ, (among whom were the three disciples of Jesus who should tarry) were called Nephites, and Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites. (4 Ne. 1:37) So, I think I'm going to follow suit with the prophets of old and modern prophets like Pres. Hinckley (and even Elder McConkie), and worship God the Eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ, in Spirit and truth. Ultimately gaining a testimony of Jesus Christ, and of his Divinity, is a personal matter. But it is necessary for our salvation. Others will have to come to terms with this understanding on their own. But for me, I witness that there is a God in Heaven and he is the Father of our spirits, and the Great Architect of the Universe, and there is another "like unto God" (Abr. 3:24), who is the Creator, the Christ, and our Judge. They are one God and they deserve our adoration, reverence, and worship. And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Ne. 25:29) I'm pretty sure Nephi is talking about true worship beyond merely being in "awe and being reverentially grateful". Sincerely, Vanhin

I worship Jesus Christ just like I do the Father, who is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. They are one God. What interesting about the Apostle Bruce R McConckie, is how his understanding of the divinity of Christ grew along with his testimony of him. Consider a quote from one of the beautiful Hymns of the Church penned by Elder McConckie: 3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God! My feet he plants on gospel sod. I’ll worship him with all my might; He is the source of truth and light. I believe in Christ; he ransoms me. From Satan’s grasp he sets me free, And I shall live with joy and love In his eternal courts above. 4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme! From him I’ll gain my fondest dream; And while I strive through grief and pain, His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.” I believe in Christ; so come what may, With him I’ll stand in that great day When on this earth he comes again To rule among the sons of men. 31243, Hymns, I Believe in Christ, no. 134 Text: Bruce R. McConkie, 1915–1985. © 1972 IRI Sincerely, Vanhin

He was a spirit person and did not have a body at that point. Yet he was fully God, and under the direction of the Father, he created the heavens and the earth. I guess I can't speak for everyone else, but I worship Jesus Christ, just like I do the Father, in spirit and truth. True, I only pray to the Father because Jesus taught me to pray to the Father in his name, but prayer is not the only form of worship. The name of our Church bears the name of Jesus Christ, and when we are baptized, we take upon us his name. The priesthood we bear, is the Holy Priesthood after the order of the Son of God. It is He who directs the affairs of his kingdom to his chosen oracles, the prophets. Every Sunday, we partake of the Sacrament in remembrance of his sacrifice, and it is He that we strive to emulate. It is faith in Jesus Christ and in his atonement that qualifies us for salvation in the highest kingdom of glory. Rarely has the voice of the Father been heard, and in almost every case, he introduces his Son, and Jehovah speaks to his creation. So, if we are not worshipers of Jesus Christ, then I don't know who is. Jesus Christ was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Moses, Nephi, Enos, The Brother of Jared, Peter, Moroni, and Joseph Smith. He is my God as well, and I say it without any compromise. Consider the words of the late prophet Gordon B. Hinckley: None so great has ever walked the earth. None other has made a comparable sacrifice or granted a comparable blessing. He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I declare His divinity without equivocation or compromise. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me. (LDS.org - Liahona Article - In These Three I Believe) If we are to reach our fullest potential, and really know the Father, we must know his Son, by becoming like him. That is eternal life. They are one in every possible way, except substance. Read the account of the Brother of Jared on the pre-mortal Jesus Christ, it is excellent: Ether 3 Sincerely, Vanhin

These sites might then be helpful. Joseph Smith - Home LDS Church History - Joseph Smith claimed that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in answer to his prayer. They called him as a prophet, like Noah or Moses, and since then there have been prophets and apostles on the earth again like in ancient times. Here is an quote from the Joseph Smith site above about what we call The First Vision. "On a spring day in 1820 14-year-old Joseph Smith sought solitude in a grove of trees and prayed to know which church was true. God the Father and Jesus Christ, "two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description," appeared and spoke with him.1 Wondering which of the many churches to join, Joseph had followed the counsel in the Bible's book of James: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God." The Lord told Joseph "that all the religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines" and that he was to await further instructions from on high.2 "In a state of calmness and peace indescribable," Joseph left that sacred grove knowing the reality of our Father in Heaven and His resurrected Son, Jesus Christ.3 Joseph Smith's first vision stands today as the greatest event in world history since the birth, ministry, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. After centuries of darkness, the Lord opened the heavens to reveal His word and restore His Church through His chosen prophet." (Joseph Smith - The First Vision) And here is a video depicting his story. It is really well made. Mormon.org - The Restoration of Truth video Regards, Vanhin

Super good questions Traveler. There is truth and light that proceeds from God through Christ. Included are eternal principles of righteousness and good that are unchanging and eternal as God himself. The plan of salvation is designed to allow us to increase in this truth and light until we receive all truth and all light, like our Heavenly Father. This truth and light, is the light of truth, or the light of Christ. It is what gives "life and light to all things" and it is "the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth" (Guide to the Scriptures: Light, Light of Christ). The ability to know the difference between good and evil is inherent in us as children of God. This is one of the manifestations of the light of Christ in us. To really be able to appreciate, or to really know good for ourselves, requires that we be placed into situations where we are presented with one choice or the other and we are left to judge for ourselves. It is an environment of opposing choices that enables our agency, and it is the exercise of our agency that gives us personal experience and firsthand knowledge of good and evil to go along with the theory that we already have. We progress when we choose good and not evil. Mortality is not the only environment where we have had our agency, or where we were faced with opposing choices. Our spirits were endowed with the light of truth in our pre-mortal state, where we were also free to choose. Just like in mortality, we were born innocent into the spirit world, and were eventually accountable for our choices. Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. (D&C 93:38) Some of our brothers and sisters, as you know, chose to follow Lucifer, and they lost their first estate. This means they would not have the opportunity to gain physical bodies or to progress further. However, those who chose good, entered mortality innocent again, because of the redemption of Christ. Man enters mortality primarily to gain a physical body. Mortality also offers the ideal test of our knowledge of good and evil. It's the perfect setting for the vast majority of us to gain experience and learn to choose right from wrong. It also gives us the opportunity to experience opposition so that we can better appreciate the good. It appears, however, that some of us do not require the tests and experience of mortality in order to be exalted. This is the case with little children, for example, who die before the age of accountability. Modern revelation assures us that they are saved in the kingdom of God. The main purpose of mortality is to gain a body. For those of us who reach the age of accountability, mortality becomes a test of our faithfulness and a source of great personal experience. Because we sometimes choose evil over good, we disqualify ourselves from returning back to the presence of our God because we have become unclean. Our loving Father provided a Savior for us, who atoned for our sins. This enables us to work out our salvation through faith, repentance, and obedience to God commandments. In order for us to be cleansed of our sins, we must make a covenant with God by being baptized. Through the baptism of water and fire (the gift of the Holy Ghost), we are born once again as innocent children of Christ. As newly begotten children of God, we continue in faithfulness and endurance to the end, receiving all the covenants and ordinances of salvation necessary to cleanse us and prepare us to enter the presence of our Father and his Christ. Through this process, our garments will be made white by the blood of the Lamb. Those are my thoughts on the matter. Regards, Vanhin

God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and by his Only Begotten Son, he created everything. Not only is Jesus the Creator of all things, he is the Christ; the one who was slain to redeem all mankind (D&C 110:4). He is the Christ and bears the emblems of his sacrifice, which sacrifice was the great and last sacrifice for sin, and infinite and eternal in it's scope (Alma 34:10). And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24) He is central in the plan of salvation, and the mission of the atonement was uniquely his. The testimony of Jesus Christ and his atonement, and being true to that testimony, is absolutely necessary for exaltation (D&C 76:51-54). Regards, Vanhin