Redbeard

I totally forget I made this thread! Thank you all for posting, your opinions were very helpfull!

It's fine that you don't mind it in your home, that is your choice. The LDS members of this board find it offensive to do those things, and they believe that it deminishes the "spirit" in their home, so even taking your opinion of what is okay, the person making those decisions is doing harm to them by deminishing that "spirit". What you are stating is way to PC for me... and I'm not even mo(rmon)! The World is way to caught up on doing whatever possible to not offend people. If you do not want me to offend you, don't come to my house where I do things differently then what you do. The OP told her guests what she allowed and did not allow in her home. If the people did not want to agree to her terms they didn't have to stay in her home! Would it really have been so hard to find a hotel? By the way, I'm not married and I have a live in girlfriend. If my parents wanted to have a family reunion and gave me the exact same options, I would have not problem getting a hotel. No reason for animosity... I don't hold it against them, but if they were to ever come to my home and try pushing their beliefs on me we would have a problem :)

Hmmm... this seems pretty easy to me, and I'm the heathen on the board! It's your home, if they do not respect your rules it's not a big deal, you can still love them, and they are still family, but they can do their own thing in a hotel/motel :) . In someone else's home I respect their rules, and when you come to my house I expect the same thing. What frustrates me is when I have a family member come stay with me while traveling and then get after me for using harsh language and owning R rated movies.... IN MY OWN HOME! Now THAT is frustrating. In my parents home I hold my tounge, I don't drink alchohol or coffee, so that's not a problem at all, but I respect what they believe. Just remember, if you are in someone else's home DO NOT get after them for not having the same "standards" as you... Anyway, just wanted to make sure everyone saw the other side.

Please, no debating, I HONESTLY do not know, I am not trying to spark debate, I am simply wondering if there is anything in the bible that states that it should be taken literally. Direct quotes would be INCREDIBLY helpful. Thanks in advance! And please, no need for debate, just looking for quotes!

To skalenfehl, Thank you for the fantastic and well thought out debate, it has been one of the best debates I have taken part of on this site! Just wanted to say that, but I don't think I'll be adding more, I think we have both said all that can be helpfully said! Anyway, I wish all the debates on this site were as helpful... but hey...

Once again, a completely rude and unnecessary post... As I have also been kind in my posts, please show me a post that I have made that has been rude. Please link a single post I have made that attempts to lure anyone away from the church. Just one. Go ahead, I'll wait. I don't care that you believe, that doesn't bother me at all, but do not post fallacies to support your claims. Good, I am happy that you remember who I am Great, please enjoy your faith, but please do not force your faith on people who are not of your faith, that is all I have been saying this ENTIRE time... What evil is that exactly? Am I voting for a right to allow anyone to kill anyone? For the right to abuse children? Really, what is so evil pray tell? And my girlfriends family Donates a massive amount of their income on "racial purity" groups... Yes, you and I can agree to disagree, I don't post on these threads to convince you, I do them so that people can see both sides of a very important argument. Believe it or not, I actually watched the video, but I am a little confused on what I was supposed to find so interesting, it did say "stand up for feedom" which did make me giggle a little... but that's another story. Anyway, I wish you would not attack me directly, as I have not done anything to attack you.

You know what? That post was completely uncalled for. I hope you will go over every single post I have ever made and check to see if I have ever made a comment critical of the LDS church.

No reason to appologize! I read your other post and it seems totally resonable. I appologize if I insulted you in any way, that was deffinatly not my intention!

You know Hemi, I would really like to respond to that, but there is no way I can do it without being rude.

Good point! Of course, if you want to say that sex is for procreation, should infertile hetrosexual couples not be able to marry? The idea that homosexuality would destroy our evolution is a little bit silly if you start digging into it, if homosexual marriage was legal, would ALL people become homosexual? Would you? People would continue being homo and hetro sexual as they are now, it wouldn't change a thing for the future of mankind.

Not so interesting as it is well.... Frustrating beyond all belief DOJ= Department of Justice And not so much of actual support for my side, but it's a little more biased than I prefer, You are talking about the section of our goverment that gets patted on the back for prosecuting and imprisoning the majority of drug users. If drugs are legalized then the majority of the people in our prisons were put in there for reasons we would then see as rediculous, therefore slandering the DOJ and DEA. They have investments in keeping drugs illegal. And our government is already pretty good at making up stories without evidence. The DOJ and DEA have been critizised multiple times by different groups for putting out unverified information. United States Department of Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Go down to the Corruption, Dissent, and Criticism section for more info Drug Enforcement Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia That is all my opinion BTW, but I feel it's pretty well supported... Anyway, just my thoughts. No no no, I'm sorry, the 1975 ruling is what allows alaskans to have marijuana plants and carry in small amounts without prosecution, I'm sorry, I totally messed up my sources, thank you for bringing that up! From Places that have decriminalized non-medical marijuana in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "With the 1975 Ravin v. State decision, the Alaska Supreme Court declared the state's anti-drug law unconstitutional with respect to possession of small amounts of marijuana, holding that the right to privacy guaranteed by the Alaska state constitution outweighed the state's interest in banning the drug.[2] Despite a 1990 initiative statute and a 2006 legislative statute contradicting the Ravin decision, Alaska courts continue to follow Ravin, voiding laws which criminalize possession of small amounts of cannabis.[3][4][5] This allows possession of less than 25 plants in your residence or home" The Seattle Times: Local News: Judge rules against Alaska marijuana law LOL, you are entirely in the right, If I am going to ask for sources it is only fair that I provide them as well

Well that is Deffinatly the most creative way anyone has called me ignorant, good job Anyway, so because my opinion differs from the majority here, I am the one who is ignorant? Pretty silly really to assume that.

Ahh, so the only reason we have sex is to procreate... You think animals enjoy it any less than humans?

Finish the rest of the page Hemi... And unless you have evidence that what you are saying is true you are just giving opinion. The scroll itself says nothing about being passed on. Edit: No record of his life, but we do have a list of the kings before him... Sumerian king list - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Strange, no talk of adam in there...

Wow, so many responses to deal with! If you reread what I wrote, I was stating that homosexuality is not exlusive to Humans... that's it... And animals do think reason, and make decisions... you really should check out your old high school biology book. If you really can't do the research for yourself, let me know and I will post a bunch of artichles linking animal research for you. And Animals have the same ability... Um... and your evidance for any of this is... I mean, the last part is fairly obvious (rent, jobs, etc etc,) but what is your proof that they do not plan murder? Are you an animal psychic? Do you know for 100% fact that an ape has never planned to kill another ape? I know it sounds silly, but apes do kill each other, for multiple reasons, and apes are intelligent enough to use tools and to solve advanced problems. Um, lots of animals kill other animals of the same species... Other than that, I don't know what else you are trying to say... And that is your opinion, I have a differing opinion, no big deal Um... good for her? What about the millions of homosexual couples who are christian and never feel the need to stop what they are doing? Wow... humans are animals too you know, yes we're the smartest ones that we know of, but there are also animals that carry out manogomous relationships... are you saying that you are comparing yourself to those animals!?!?! How embarrasing! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So religion isn't fundamental either... Marriage may have been a theistic law, but once the government came in and started to use the term it became a non-theist term. Sorry, one of the advantages of having church and state seperate. And that definition of marriage is your own, let me read the most up to date deffinition of marriage: the state of being a married couple voluntarily joined for life (or until divorce); "a long and happy marriage"; "God bless this union" two people who are married to each other; "his second marriage was happier than the first"; "a married couple without love" the act of marrying; the nuptial ceremony; "their marriage was conducted in the chapel" a close and intimate union; "the marriage of music and dance"; "a marriage of ideas" that was the first definition brought up in when you type in "Define:marriage" in google. The first one that talks about marriage being a man and a woman? www.medievalwriting.50megs.com/churchglossary/glossaryi.htm Hmm... Well that is good

Come on people, do I have to do all the work for you? "One of the oldest known prohibitions against murder appears in the Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu written sometime between 2100 and 2050 BC. The code states, "If a man commits a murder, that man must be killed."" That's a good 2000 years before the bible was written... and it was written by man without the influence of gods. So did christians get the idea from non theistic based law? "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human person with malice aforethought, as defined in Common Law countries. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime and most impose severe penalty on its commission."

Actually, what I said was "general consenses for morality of theists and non-thesists alike" The reason behind that is, we are in america, and in america we have the right to believe, or not to believe in a higher being. Because of that, non-theists should not be held to what theists believe wrong unless there is empirical evidance that such activity is damaging. Look at countries run by Radical islamists, do you really think that religions rules should be forced on people of different beliefs?

I am getting so fed up with my internet browser.... Twice now I have written up a big long response and it has crashed both times I hit post... GAHH!!!! you get the short and sweet this time. Yes they do, they reach the youth now and it is illegal, I am saying that if they were legalized drugs would be regulated and we wouldn't have dealers out on the street trying to push drugs on kids when they could go to a gas station and get it without worrying what the drugs are laced with. Hope that made sense, I'm typing fast... Grr, stories didn't quote- 1st story- preacher complaining about the lack of enforcement of drug laws, don't see how that proves your point, marijuna sales are still illegal there... 2nd story- It's a reporters opinion, and it was supported by the DEA... Hmmm... the same agency that would be out of purpose if drugs were legalized?! really!? 3rd story- I lived in fairbanks for 4 years. I loved it, but when I got older my elder brothers told me "It sucked living up there, people our age had 3 options, drugs, drinking, or sex." And that story is old, alaska decriminalized marijuana for personal use again in '99. obviously something worked All stories from the DOJ and DEA? These are groups that make financial gain on the fact that drugs stay illegal... these are the same groups that put out the "gateway effect" despite arguments from doctors and sociologists. No thank you. I disagree As it sits right now, there are only a couple countries in the world where cannabis has been completely legalized. Other countries (including the US) have only legalized (in certain areas) the personal use of the drug. Speaking of the US, do most of you realize that marijuana wasn't even illegal until the late 1930's? Before that time many people smoked and used cannabis all over the country. And here we are today, still alive and breathing Marijuana was sold in pharmacies as a headache cure! Anyway, I hope I touched on everything, and if this doesn't work I give up

That was indeed a compelling story, however it seems like most of the arguments against legalization are because of personal bad experiences, which are emotionally based... Not really that helpful for a good discussion. I have to wonder if either of those situations would have ever happened if drugs were not illegal. Of course it's ridiculous for me to assume that, but hey, we can all throw in our opinion right? Anyway, all drugs are illegal, and our government spends hundreds of millions of dollars trying to eradicate all drugs. It still has not stopped people from growing them, and people from using them. Prohibition is not working.

Wow... you should probably look up modern medicine, cannabis does not effect growth hormones whatsoever, it cannot stunt growth, and men will not grow breasts. Health issues and effects of cannabis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dang it, I had a big old response written out and like an idiot I hit the back button instead of submit... I'll just skip to the big things... Gotcha, no argument there! Please show me proof that the majority of drug users damage society. No, that's not really a serious request, I'm simply trying to show you that there is no way to prove that either way, so you are just stating opinion. It's fine to have it, just don't say it like it's fact You are 100% correct, legalization of recreational drugs is by far not as important of a struggle compared to minority rights and slavery, but a wrong is a wrong! Once again, unless you can prove that the majority of drug users are damaging peoples lives you are just giving your opinion, please try to link sources that would support your opinion. Which is how you have personally experienced them. My experience with people using recreational drugs has been completely opposite, the majority of the people that I know of that use drugs leave productive lives, they have jobs, and go to school, pay their bills, ect... now I should also mention that the majority of my friends are college students, so demographics will play big into that. I really am sorry for having such horrific experiences, I'm not so sure that if I were in your shoes I'd be fighting the same fight, but my personal experience with people and drugs has been nothing like that. Probably a lot, which is sad, but that delves into the area of drugs in different demographics... WHAT!?!? I haven't heard that in years! I will link some stories for you to check out, the majority of marijuana users never move on to try harder drugs, the reason the goverment got away with saying that is because most people who have tried harder drugs started out doing lighter ones. But that's pretty backwards thinking... Gateway drug theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Myth of Marijuana's Gateway Effect Study say marijuana no gateway drug | Science Blog Marijuana Not A Gateway To Hard Drug Use, Rand Study Says<BR>Conclusions Raise Serious Doubts Regarding The Legitimacy Of U.S. Drug Policy - NORML Myths and Facts About Marijuana Anyway, that's pretty old info you got there, hopefully this will get you some up to date stuff. Because marijuana sells itself... much like achohol Ciggarettes on the other hand are literally addictive. And before you go out and try stating that marijuana is addictive, you should probably look up the most recent studies on that Yup, nastey stuff... but lucky for us marijuana is all natural Yup, but luckily there are already a ton of natural marijuana growers in the US, as long as its regulated we would continue harvesting pure canabis. And like I said, unfortunatly I cannot compare to that situation, but it is your personal experience, and without some sort of evidence that the majority of users are the same way it doesn't really help in this debate. And yes, you do see minors with ciggarettes, but are they getting them from back alley dealers? No... at least not the kids I knew, they stole them from their parents, or had their older sibbling buy them. What?!?!? that's a slippery slope argument if I've ever heard one... We already have legalized marijuana in many states in the US, and we havent' had a problem like this yet. Once again, obviously not true, since we have legalized marijuana in multiple states now, without those side effects... Sorry for the short responses, but I'm frustrated I didn't keep my last ones

Holy cow son! It's gonna take me a week just to read that, much less respond! Lol, I'll start reading and get back to you shortly.

Were they wrong? They were giving their opinion of life, how can an opinion be wrong? How does that change the fact that general consenses for morality of theists and non-thesists alike state that a person should not harm another? Yes, it does happen. Did my post say anything about how having those general rules would STOP them from happening? I was saying that laws of the land should be based of what theists and non theist alike both find appalling. You are pulling some crazy tangents here... Because most theists and non theists alike believe that all humans should have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do you disagree?

I have nothing of importants to add to this thread. I clicked on it because I thought we were going to be talking about deloreans and flux capaciters

Very well thought out Skalenfehl, I feel special for being the focus of a post too First off, since this I'm guessing this is about the drugs I will go ahead and leave this be, I don't think it needs much of a response from me. While the first part of this paragraph is a little hard for me to understand (be nice to me, I'm on meds...) I believe what you are trying to say is: "The difference between a facsist and myself is while I don't believe drugs should be used, I am not going to try to change the law myself to have everything go my way." Forgive me if I got that wrong, you may have to speak very slowly to me today If that is what your saying, then kudos to you, I appreciate your open mindedness. If not, please clarify in 2nd grade language for me lol. I agree, and while recreational drugs are currently illegal, I will not use them. However, just because a law is one way, does not mean that people should support it unquestionably. Remember, at one time slavery was the law, as was the lack of womens and other races rights. I am simply saying that people should not be held responsible for other peoples lack of judgement. *off topic* I applaud you for adopting, you are truly a great person in my book for getting those children away from a bad enviroment, and raising them to the best of your ability! Thank you for your contribution to bettering the world, and I do mean that whole heartedly. *back on topic* I am not advocating that people who abuse drugs should have the right to do so and harm families. I am simply stating that if a person is responsible it should be no one else's business but their own what they do with their own body. If you have children, do not smoke around them, whether that be tobacco or canibis. If you drink achohol, do not drive, or abuse your family. I know many people who drink alchohol that have never drivin drunk, never abused family members, and never broken a law. Why should their rights be taken away because of a drunk driver who is not responsible? My same argument goes for people who smoke marijuana, If you are going to do it, make sure you are being responsible, nothing more, nothing less. That's a long one, I hope I don't miss anything- First off, marijuana smoke going from one apartment to another? If there is not proper enough filtration to stop the smoke from going to multiple apartments, they should be condemmed , but out of all of the smokes out there, marijuana has continually been shown to be the least damaging (compared to fire/tobacco). The other point you brought up is meth labs. With legalized recreational drugs, drugs would be created and distributed by actual companies, being kept in check by the goverment. No more backyard meth labs . What has been done to your child because of his biological mother is indeed a heinous crime. But look at it this way- RIGHT NOW drugs are illegal, and his mother used them. Some people will use drugs irresponsibly whether or not they are illegal. How would keeping the drugs illegal change that situation? Stolen from a site (forget where...) If drugs were legalized we would have- 1.) Purity assurance under Food and Drug Administration regulation; 2.) Labeled concentration of the product (to avoid overdose); 3.) Obliteration of vigorous marketing ("pushers"); 4.) Obliteration of drug crime and reduction of theft crime 5.) Savings in expensive enforcement and 6.) Significant tax revenues Yes, supply and demand, that if legalized would be regulated by the goverment! If drugs are legalized, why would we still have backstreet drug dealers? Alchohol and tobacco are illegal to minors under 21, but you don't see alchohol and tobacco dealers on the street corners do you? As for medical uses of drugs, you can check those out for yourself, but the other use for recreational drugs is just that RECREATION. Is it something that I want to do for recreation? No, but other people do, as long as they are being responsible, why should we stop them? For everyone else: Medical cannabis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Cocaine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Methamphetamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Phencyclidine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia First off, just about every scientific journal has published the medicinal benifits of marijuana... But the point of drugs is not just medication. Some people want to get high once in a while. If they do so in a responsible manner, who are we to tell them they shouldn't be allowed to? And just for examples sake, please indicate to me who is being effected besides myself in this SAMPLE (as in, never happened) situation: I am sitting alone in my house, which I own. Not a duplex, apartment or anything else. I decide to smoke some marijuana which I have grown in my house in a secret lair (Just for clarification this is all an example...) I smoke the marijuana, and then lounge around my house watching Fox's Family Guy. I then go to bed, and wake up the next morning and go out to mow my lawn. The end. Um... some people do... How about the hash bars in amsterdam? When was the last time you heard of a guy going to a hash bar, then going out and shooting up a family? There are quite a few people in the world that lead incredibly productive lives, and still partake in recreational drug use. How do you explain that? Erowid Character Vaults : Famous People and their Drug Use Yes, there are people on that list who did not use them responsibly, and they are not the ones I'm talking about... Amos, Tori The Beatles Charles, Ray Churchill, Winston Clapton, Eric Clinton, William Dickens, Charles Dumas, Alexander Edison, Thomas Freud, Sigmund Gates, Bill Ginsberg, Allen Gore, Al Gore, Tipper Grant, Ulysses S Hemingway, Ernest Harrelson, Woody Jackson, Andrew Jefferson, Thomas Jobs, Steve John, Elton Jolie, Angelina I'll go ahead and stop there, but you get the point. Once again, would not be a problem if drugs were legalized and regulated. Anyway, hope all of that made sense, I'm still a little loopy, but getting better as the day moves on.