Paul Osborne

Antishock, The Church simply cannot afford to excavate around the hill Cumorah. If nothing were to come forth out of the earth it would embarrass the Church and weaken the faith of many of the saints and many nonmembers wouldn’t join the Church because Satan would harden their hearts because of Cumorah. On the other hand, if evidence was brought forth it would prove detrimental to the plan of God which requires a testimony born of faith and confirmation of the Spirit and not proof sitting in a lovely glass case in the Salt Lake museum. I don’t need evidence. I don’t want evidence. I want to walk by faith! Paul O

Antishock, The land is porous and the earth drinks in everything that sits on it. Just look at Egypt! There is plenty of evidence in the dry lands of Upper Egypt where moisture was absent and objects were placed in hard compartments which were not altogether consumed but preserved. But, where is Memphis in Lower Egypt? There is very little that has survived in the Delta! Not so much as a rubber ball or a toothpick because the waters and the soil consumed everything and only a few monuments of stone exists and tombs that are far out into the desert. The treasures of Egypt came from the south where the land is dry and the universal solvent is absent. It is easy for me to conceive that finding a steel sword in the grassland of New York is not very likely. The cracks of the soil open up and devour things. Paul O

Antishock, I suppose that SRM and many other Mormons are just trying to work their way through some of the difficulties that surround this matter and the critics such as yourself seem to think the lack of evidence must force another hand. Latter-day Saints need not bend to the idea that a lack of evidence proves there never was evidence in the first place. Neither do the critics need to bend to the idea that evidence proves the Church is true. One receives a testimony from the Spirit and physical evidence is only a tangible object that cannot convince anyone that the Church is true like the Spirit can. God has set this whole thing up so that faith is the rule and not evidence. How about you think back on how you felt when you first found out the Church was true? If you had felt that way every day of your life would you have quit the Church? And, what kind of test would that have been? You gave up on Joseph Smith! How about you reconsider that these matters of controversy are only a test to try the hearts of the saints and see if the Mormon Holy Ghost can work in you again? You have nothing to loose. Paul O

Cal, No horses? I realize that this is a scientific view today based on the current evidence and the manner in which it is analyzed. I trust this view will change in a day when further light and knowledge is revealed and brought forth out of mother earth-- and man’s instruments are better refined. The Book of Mormon says there was horses, and that is final. When the Lord speaks, I listen. The popular scientific ideas and conclusion of man will not sway my testimony of the truthfulness of the BofM and that horses existed in the Americas. My faith is assured in this knowledge. Paul

Sunday Morning Session, April 6, 1980 Introduction to the Proclamation President Spencer W. Kimball "From the soil of Cumorah’s Hill, a few miles to the west of here, Joseph obtained from the angel Moroni the records of a people who anciently inhabited this land" Paul O

Antishock,Your references are valid and the General Authorities of the Church have made it clear that Cumorah is not only the home of the golden plates but the very place where the Nephites gave battle. The Spirit of God has moved the apostles to bear witness of what they know to be true such as President Romney to the whole Church in the presence of all the General Authorities. Either President Romney (in the previous quote I provided) was moved by the Spirit, or he was not. Either we can rely upon the apostles to bear truthful witness in General Conference, or we cannot. I believe the Book of Mormon is true and the Holy Ghost has given me this knowledge notwithstanding all the controversies about horses, swords, and bones. :) Paul O

I missed your reference to swift horses in which men rode upon. Thank you The Traveler Horses run fast and a man can sit on them and make haste. Chariots and horses combined are a powerful way to move an army into battle. Real horses existed in America and men rode upon them. The excuses offered by some LDS apologetic scholars are an insult to my intelligence. I thank God I am not under any obligation to heed the silly ideas they come up with. Alma 20: 6 Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots. Ex. 14: 9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them Paul O

Antishock, I don't know where the steel is. Paul O

My name isn’t SRM but I will say that the pageant is held in New York where the true hill Cumorah is found. Prophets, apostles, and inspired men and woman of all walks of life have felt the Spirit testify that Cumorah is in the very region in which great battles were fought. Or, shall we just pack up our things and go home and wait for the FARMS scholars to dig something up in South America? I think the FARMS scholars should quit digging and do some serious soul searching. Maybe the reason why they are funded by the Church is to keep them busy so they don’t drop out and join the critics. Learned people have always been at risk of falling away-- the Book of Mormon said so. Paul O

The peoples of the Bible and the era from which the Nephites came knew all about metals and how to form them out of ore. They knew the difference between iron, steel, and copper-- just as we do today. Here are just three examples:1. Ezra 8: 27 Also twenty basons of gold, of a thousand drams; and two vessels of fine copper, precious as gold. 2. Jer. 15: 12 Shall iron break the northern iron and the steel? 3. Ps. 18: 34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms. Nephi was no dummy and neither was Mormon or Moroni. They knew how to work ore and also knew the difference between iron and steel as Adam knew the difference between good and evil once he ate the fruit. The Nephites were highly developed and industrious in their arts. Steel was steel and iron was iron. The Book of Mormon is the plainest book that God ever caused to be written. I am saddened that some LDS apologists have turned it into a circus act when they deny metal swords and swift horses in which men rode upon. I sure don’t need anyone from FARMS to tell me that steel is not steel and thus steal my understanding away and cut at my testimony of God’s precious book. Away with the faithless scholars who confuse the members of the Church and cause the critics to laugh at us Let the record speak for itself: 1 Ne. 18: 25 And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper. 2 Ne. 5: 15 work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance Jarom 1: 8 iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war Mosiah 8: 10 breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper Mosiah 11: 8 all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper Paul O

Life sure is a kick in the pants!! Paul O

FARMS can shove it where the sun doesn't shine or where horses don't trod!I believe in real horses. I have faith. :) Paul O

I believe that horses existed in America before the Spaniards showed up. I believe the Book of Mormon is true and my faith is assured whether there is physical evidence or not. Paul O

Cal,You are confused by the confusion of the world. I don’t think President Smith ever got up in General Conference and bore witness in the Spirit that man would never walk on the moon. I have no problem with President Smith expressing his personal views in the Improvement Era (Church periodical) under the section “Your Question”-- stating that man will not make it to the moon. So what, big deal. That was his opinion for someone that asked a question and he gave his answer of what he thought would be a future matter. He had nothing to base it on other than what he thought. It is a good thing that our prophets are sometimes wrong, otherwise we LDS might be tempted to worship them. It is a sad thing that nonLDS people expect our prophets to be perfect in everything they say as if they can never be wrong about anything. This is the very reason why the prophets today are generally very careful about what they say because after they say it goes under a magnifying glass and people like YOU are trying to find fault with the Lord’s anointed. For heavens sake, let the prophets be men and enjoy life too without holding them down as if they are supposedly speaking new scripture. Paul O

SRM, I don’t know where Zarahemla is and it may be that Joseph Smith had his ideas and talked about them-- even wrote them down. But, I do feel quite strong about President Romney’s testimony and I believe him. If President Romney did bear a false testimony about Cumorah he will have to answer for that, but I trust he was under the influence of the Holy Ghost-- so my belief in him and the other apostles and prophets feels pretty safe. I agree with Antishock that the Cumorah issue is a core matter pertaining to the claims of the restoration. I don’t know where the evidence is anymore than President Bush knows where the weapons of mass destruction are in Iraq. I’m sorry if my attitude aggravates Antishock but my religion is based on faith not physical evidence. I’m not about to deny my testimony over the lack of artifacts missing from a hillside. In such a case I would have to then deny other important matters given me from the Lord. Therefore, it is easier to go without evidence than it is to deny other evidences (manifestations) given me through faith. Either way I'm screwed so I'll take the Cumorah issue on faith and everything will work out in the end. Paul O

he was not the Prophet...he was not charged with receiving revelation for the whole Church. but more importantly. He was giving a talk. He did not speak of a vision, nor a visitation nor a revelation about the location of Cumorah. You are grasping at straws here. BTW Anti, I concede that I may be wrong and that the hill in New York is the same one. But, I don't concede that we know from the scritpures from a rvelation to the Prophet that it is in New York President Romney has spoken out on this issue many times. In this case he did so in front of the very President of the Church and with his full blessing. He bore his witness that he knew those things were true and that he knew they were true by the Spirit. That in my view is a witness from a prophet of God and all the prophets were in company and many testimonies have been given to this effect. The mind of the apostles are that the hill is one in the same…At some point we have to know when our prophets are speaking by the Holy Ghost even when they are not saying, “thus saith the Lord”. Otherwise, we are never going to be under their direction when we don’t want to be because nearly everything they say can be written off as an opinion. All I can say is you will have to follow your conscience. Paul O

Come on now. We all know that we go through humps and bumps in life. The iron rod is an allegory of how our faith and reliability should be steadfast in trusting the Lord in all things and not to wonder off the straight path. Paul O

I thought it was supposed to be the iron rod that leads to the tree of life. Are there bumps and humps in that? Yep. Paul O

SRM, I guess you can take the prophets for whatever you want and decide for yourself when and when not their personal testimony's are of the Lord or of man. I cannot satisfy you or offer what you are looking for. Everyone of us have to learn how to live in Mormonism according to the dictates of their own concience. I wish you well, my friend, but beware of those bumps and humps along the way that leads to the tree of life. It won't be easy to get there. Paul O

Antishock, Ok, we got side tracked and you know how easy it is to do that when arguing about religion and I can be a jerk at times. Basically, I think you proved your point about Cumorah on two points: 1. Cumorah is one and the same 2. There is no archeological evidence With this conclusion I am forced to exercise faith in order to maintain the position given by the General Authorities of the Church. From the outset it looks like you win the fight and the world will back you-- but I don’t follow the world-- I follow Jesus Christ who is not of this world and Joseph Smith his prophet. I suppose all the archeological evidence was swept up and hidden by the Lord in order that people like me would be tested in the last days. Therefore, I am fulfilling the Lord’s will in having faith. I sure wish you could do the same; it‘s not too late-- come back…. Paul O

Antishock, Ok, so I’m being immature-- so what, who cares? You can handle that just fine-- so it seems to me. And, I’m not threatening you, really, but am telling you what the end result is for those who fight against the Church according to the BofM which you trample on as a thing of naught, so it is the book that threatens you, and not really me. Shall I quote from the BofM? I’d rather be sold to delusion and illusion than deny the testimony that God gave me. If I were to lie and say God never did such and such for me it would be like covering my face with my hands while humming a sad tune. Don’t you get it? My witness is more powerful then the supposed contradictions that have caused you to deny your testimony and I can work through them just fine!! I don't know all the answers but there are answers. You’re right about me having no hold over anyone but myself. It’s all about choice and I’ve made mine and am sticking with it. I’m not going to lie to the Lord as you would have me do. Paul O

I think you are mean, Antishock because you are a faith killer. You seek to destroy the testimonies given to us from God. I assume you do this because you lost your own testimony and want us to loose ours too. Well, you can forget it! We faithful Latter-day Saints aren't going to fall for it. Paul O

Antishock, You are wasting your breath. I assume it was either Nephi-Moroni the son of Mormon, or Moroni-Nephi son of Mormon. That sounds like a good combination to me. Moroni had a second name which he honored before the prophet-- first and last. Regardless, Joseph Smith is a prophet and the Church is true. There are answers to all things including the ones that will cause you to mourn in the afterlife. You have done nothing to shake my testimony. All you are doing is further wrecking yourself and ruining your chances for a return to the restored gospel. tick tick tick Paul O

Antishock, It makes no difference to me what name was attributed to Moroni in any given document. It is also a fact that names were sometimes coded and used in many different instances in the D&C and if Joseph Smith got the names of Nephi and Moroni mixed up it makes little difference to me. Maybe he was tired. Maybe he was hung over. Maybe he was sick. I don’t care. I’ll go with the account given to the saints: D&C 27:5 August 1830 “Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim” B) Paul O

Cal, Blah, blah, blah-- you are so intent on destroying our testimonies as you rant about things as if they will ruin the power of the Holy Ghost which gave me my testimony! Are these seeming contradictions more powerful than the Almighty God? Heavens no! I received my testimony from the Holy Ghost and the testimony given by Joseph Smith doesn’t come without witness. Your apparent confusion between physical and spiritual eyes is very telling, indeed. Go read the scriptures. If you do read them you don’t understand them. You continue to rant, point after point about things that will never break my testimony of the restoration. Were you once a member of the Church? I think you were. I think you are simply exercising your points of contention in order to keep your self down. The Church is true and you know it. And if you don't it is only because you have forgotten what you once knew. There is still time for you to get your testimony back. Paul O