aliasgeorge

If there is one thing learned in these postings, is that Jesus Christ is the final judge and not you and I (and thank goodness). I know these principles have already been covered, so no need to rehash them again with me in subsequent posts, but if murderers cannot be saved, then what of the anti-nephi-lehi's? What of men who get first-presidency permission to be baptized after comitting murder? Then again, what of Cain, who saw, walked and talked with God, and then killed Abel? God is the judge. We do not know the hearts and minds of the murder, we do not know the motives or deceptions, we do not know how much mental disease and brainwashing will impact judgement--only God can judge, and his judgement is just. All we need to know is that every murderer goes through hell, and some never make it out. But every individual regardless of what they have done, will have a better, purer, happier, and more joyous existence both here and in the eternities if they will turn to jesus christ and, seek repentance and live his laws and commandments.

I sure don't think God is a "republican" by the current republican standards... But I sure don't think he's a "democrat" either...

As for being out of print, it was in print last year, and you just missed it apparently. I'm sure it'll be in print again in a year or so. Deseret book does cyclical marketing schemes to boost sales when it is printed. All about profit margins IMHO. Deseret book does the same with all its "series." like journal of disources--out of print currently, but in a couple of years, they'll do a "one in a lifetime" marketing scheme to get everyone to buy it again as a "last chance" offer. They do it with all their series which are older. Then they sell a lot more because people think it's their one chance to buy it... I've heard people whisper in the corners of the church that the church leadership is trying to supress elder McConkie's writings by taking them all out of print. Sheer nonsense. Mormon Doctrine is the most widely sold and quote book in the church after the standard works, and it was revised with spencer W Kimball under first-presidency direction. His son, Joseph Fielding McConkie wrote a book entitled "The Bruce R McConkie Story" and has a chapter about what really happened. The people who pass along such reduculous and slanderous (libel I guess if you read it online) things are the same people who refuse to believe in the sound doctrines taught within his books. Elder McConkie gets smeared more than his share, because he taught the truth so clearly! When truth is taught clearly, it cuts people to the core, and destroys their "craft" or false ideas and notions which are not true. They get angry, and the only way to combat him is the defame his name and discredit his works. They attack his character unjustly, becasue they cannot attack his teachings as they are built upon the firm foundation (same thing they do with Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, etc.). He references all his teachings soundly in the scriptures and presidency declarations, so if you don't believe him, you can just look up his references and read the scriptures yourself. Anyway, good luck.

In addition to rameumptom's explanation, I again highly recommend "doctrinal exposition of the father and the son" by the 1st pres and 12. It puts for the doctrine concerning Father and Son and how Jesus can be both in respect to us.

Ankh, Interesting questions. I think one of the impediments to this discussion are clear and solid definitions of words... I recommend you read "the promised messiah" by BRMcconkie. Chapter 10 in particular, entitled "Christ is the God of Israel" renders some great definitions of words which clarify much of the scriptures concerning, eternity, eternitity to eternity, how Jesus Christ is the first-born spirit child, yet also from beginning to end, from eternity to eternity, etc. (need to combine with chapter 9) Very clear and concise and sound explanations on this issue. Concerning "God" and the status of a "God", read chapter 8: "there is one God". Concerning the premortal status of Christ as God, read chapter 7: "Messiah is God." Concerning how the premortal messiah is "God":chapter 12: "messiah is the perfect one" I guess a thorough explanation can be found in chapters 7-10. The whole book has some incredible insights and clear explanations concerning deeper doctrinal issues. Make sure you read the last 2 chapters as well--incredible. IMHO, many will write their two cents here in the forum, and I just gave you mine, but nearly all is speculation. These readings will not cross the "t's" and dot the "I's" concerning all of your questions per say (it will on some though), but they will give you a sound foundation upon which you can stand. Then you will be able to discount many speculative opinions and theories because they refute another gospel truth. Many opinions in this forum can be effectively checked off the list if we understand and hold true to these doctrinal foundations. As for "intelligence" and "intelligences," read "the way to perfection" by JFieldingSmith. There are two chapters which specifically address these issues. And as for the "intelligences" which abraham saw, which were graded and possessed agency, they are to be understood as "personal spirits," or spirit-born children of God our Father (see "doctrinal exposition of the father and the son" by the 1st pres and quorum of the 12 apostles). This is a lot of reading, but it sounds like you're genuinely willing to put in the time and effort to understand these things, so I figure I'd just point you to some great sources rather than give you my opinion on the matter.

I couldn't agree with you more. I accept all scientific observations, just not the conclusions which refute the gospel of jesus christ. In fact, the assumptions that science makes in order to get to some of their conclusions refute the gospel as well. I change the assumptions, based on my religious beliefs, and then reanalyze, and the conclusions go along perfectly with the restored and revealed gospel of jesus christ. I'm such an ignorant fool. I actually believe that the prophets speak the truth! Would you ever claim that someone who accepts God's truths as I do would be anything other than ignorant? I mean seriously, I don't think the same thing as you. I must therefore be dumb oh all knowledgable one. I'm smart enough to trust God over the vain and foolish theories of men which conflic with His words.

I believe that Adam came with a perfect body. Once the fall took place, blood began to flow in his veins (see "fall of adam" or "flesh" in bible dictionary). We know that genetic mutations occur, and that they bring disease and physical ailments. I think the patriarchs lived so much longer, b/c their bodies didn't have all the genetic mutations and problems that we have inherited. Man's body has been devolving ever since the fall of Adam. He had a perfect body, and since he fell, the human body has devolved. All known mutations in higher organisms (excluding bacteria) have been detrimental. There has never been observed a benefical mutation in the body of mankind, nor any other higher organisms. As such, the body of man use to live longer and be more resilient. Now, not so much. Man is devolving, not evolving. (read doctrines of salvation by JFS compiled by BRM book 1).

I agree with you in principle. But I know many of the brethren have taught that this day quoted in ether specifically referrs to the milleniual enjoyments. You should look it up on lds.org talks. Also, if you read the whole chapter, he is talking about opening the sealed portion of the book of mormon. That is where and when we will read the brother of jared's accounts. Again, I agree with you in principle.

Hemi, I agree, the spirit confirms truths to us. However, if God has revealed through his prophet the truths, he does not need to reveal them again to you. God reveled this to the early church leadership in commanding them to keep a record--God requires we learn for what is already revealed, and use it to direct our thoughts and beliefs. As for the scripture you are quoting in Ether, IMHO, it is referencing the millenium. Before then, the people will not have the faith of the brother of Jared, and the sealed portion of the BofM will not be opened until then. There are, however, other scriptures that teach that man can know the truth of all things, understand God's mysteries, etc, so I agree with you in principle i think. I'm not sure what you're referencing about the second comforter... read what Joseph smith says about it in teachings, and it is equated to calling and election, personal visit of the Son, etc.

Hemi, not sure what you're trying to say, but there is an order when it comes to revelation. You're right in that elders can receive revelation to know the truths of God, but such truths will NOT conflict with that which has already been revealed. If we can throw out the words of the prophets based on whatever we think was revealed, then what is the point of having a standard to measure all things against? I have known many individuals who have left the church b/c their "revelations" from "God" taught different things than what the brethren have taught. In other words, if we do not stand upon the firm foundation of revelation, which God has given to us via the prophets, we are built upon sand and stand ready to be decieved. Many "scholars" in the church have come up with different theories and explanations which refute the standard of the prophets and apostles. Cleon Skowsen's "God is subject to intelligence" is but one example (which is an expansion of BH Robert's theories). God is all powerful, subject to nothing. He is the law giver, not held in court to a higher power of "intelligence." CS and BHR are smart guys and all, but personal revelation cannot refute any of the principles of the standard. Another example--BH Robert's "dual creationism" theory. He's done wonderful things for the church, but he has asserted things in this area which step off of the sure foundation, and into sepculation which refutes the words of the prophets. There is an order in the kingdom, and if we don't follow it, we stand ready to decieve. (read D&C 107:27-29) By all means, seek to understand the mysteries of God, but only do so upon the sure foundation. If your ideas conflict with the BD IMHO, you're not standing upon firm ground. As for the bible dictionary, you should look at Elder Bednar's conference talks and count how many times he references the BD as the basis for his statements. Not to mention who it was written by and who had to sustain its contents in order to be included in the cannon.

I respectfully, but resolutely disagree. You should try reanalyzing the scientific observations from a new paradigm--that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true...

I think the law of exaltation is "be one with God" meaning, be like him in every way. As such you will do what he would do, think what he would think, act as he would act, rule as he would rule, judge as he would judge, etc. b/c your mind becomes one with God, and your thought process and rational is the same. It won't be about "following the laws," it will be doing what we think we should, becasue what we think we should will be what God would do.

Thanks for the great posts! I couldn't agree more, and you've really done a great job here. This one in particular I think goes with the whole theme--moderation in all things, and all truth must be circumscribed into one whole. I think my favorite analogy is that of a pie. When we study or teach or apply a principle in our lives, we pull out the corresponding piece of pie, talk about it, analyze it, and focus on it. If, however, we blow it up too big, and do not consider all of the other pieces of the pie (meaning all the other doctrines which relate to it), then when we go to put the piece of pie back, it's too big and doesn't fit anymore. Like love. true it is that God is love, and it permeates all other things. But if we blow it up too big as you've suggested, then it won't fit in the pie anymore. God is love. But God is also just, requires accountability. God is merciful, and how great is his mercy, but not everyone--only those who come unto him. All things fit together into one great whole. There is no conflict within the doctrines of the kingdom, and if we perceive a conflict, its because we've either overinflated one principle, underinflated another. And you cannot overinflate without it being to the detriment of another principle. Sorry for being long winded. Great post. Thanks!

I understand perfectly what the theories of men are. But I think they conflict with the gospel. Lets do this, go read the Bible dictionary under "fall of adam" or "death" or "flesh" and get back to me on whether or not there is a theological problem...

Amen. Jesus is quoted in the bible and 3Nephi. Same speaker, similar words (some verbatim). Nephi quotes Isaiah among others. All prophets speak the words of God, and use the same influences to know how to express the thoughts of revelation that they get. Thus it all sounds similar, because it all teaches the same thing. All that said, if you want to know the Book of Mormon is true, the only person you can trust is God your father. Only when he says to you personally, "yes, its true" can you know. Not believe it, but know it. As such, you should ask him your questions (as others have already stated).

Redbeard, no you haven't offended me. And you can do whatever you want. I don't want to get into it with you, as you're set in your views and I in mine, and thats fine. However, I fully recognize the bias which I possess--that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true, and that which conflicts with it is in error. I recognize the bias, and I accept it. I do, however, have the capacity and ability to see and understand the viewpoint of those who do not possess my beliefs. While I think they are wrong, I understand their rational and the "why." All I have to say beyond that is, that if you think that your references and links that you post are completely "unbiased" as you call it, then you are blind indeed. Beleive what you want, and teach what you want, but to say your info has no bias is absurd. It is IMPOSSIBLE to remove bias when interpreting the evidence that science points to for macroevolution. The only way to remove bias is to test it and observe it in a lab, removing all variables but one, and testing it, and observe it. Can you do that with fossils? NO. Can you do it to establish what carbon levels were at when the fossilized life died (essential to calculate the death date)? NO. It is impossible to remove bias. Do they tell a nice story to account for the observations? Yes. But is far far far from an unbiased account. I know you beleive it. I know you think science has proven it. Well, thats fine. Believe it. But have the courage to see it from another's viewpoint and recognize the bias and assumptions you and all your science buddies had to accept in order to make the conclusions. If your incapable of doing that, and reanalyzing your evidence from the paradigm of the gospel, then your posts are pointless in this forum IMHO. Just as my posts to you using scripture are pointless to you as you mentioned. Well, why should you write from my paradigm, and not me from yours? because this is LDS.NET and the forum section is "LDS Gospel Discussion" and the subsection "Doctrine regaurding evolution." The whole website is to talk from the paradigm that the church is true. Not that its false, and then battle ideas concerning conclusions, when we're standing on different assumptions. The problem with you is that you fail to recognize you're own assumptions, thus you're deceived into believing you're "unbiased," when in actuality you're far from it IMHO. I hope I'm not coming across too harshly. I'm not angry or anything, just speaking my mind (which can come across over the top sometimes, so I apologize if I've been rude. its not intentional.)

AMEN!

I'll put my trust in God personally, when man's declarations do not align with scientific teachings. Thats why I'm a mormon. I mean a 14 year old with gold plates which God took back to heaven without a trace? Why don't you prove that one with your science. I'll pick God every time. And carbon dating is only reliable as far out as tree rings go IMHO.

I guess I have a question about this thread then. Aren't we concerned about the church doctrine concerning evolution? If you discredit any and all arguments which have religious aspects, then you're completely ignoring the paradigm of the individuals of the church, and also hindering the progress of the forum? My opinion obviously, but you want arguments not using LDS scriptures, when you're in an LDS forum? I mean seriously? You sound like you're in the wrong place if you want discussion without the gospel truths of God. If you're ignorning the paradigm by which the LDS see the science, then you'll obviously discount and discredit the conclusion. I think it was Kuhn wrote a whole book on this, terming "paradigm shift" and how different scientific conclusions are draw based upon looking at the observations from a different paradigm.

So hemidakota, do you not believe that this earth is living? That it was born, baptized, will die, and be resurrected and celestialized (read D&C88)? Assuming that you do, then chunks of our earth sure isn't going to be spewed out across the universe and recycled into other worlds. It is going to be resurrected and serve as an eternal dwelling place for the righteous. Given that, I don't really see how you can doctrinally make a case that our earth is made up of big chunks of former planets, since everything we know pertains only to our planet, and our planet will be resurrected, just like all forms of life. as I understand it, Christ saves all his creations. If christ does save all his creations, then all the worlds created by Him are saved from death as well. I guess I'm just curious what scriptural case is for believing these things. (as all our teachings and opinions should measure up against the standard--being the standard works). I agree with you that there is matter waiting to be used, but I'm just wondering about the whole recycled planets thing.

Cleon Skowsen's teachings shouldn't be the basis of your beliefs, especially when it refutes the teaching that god is omnipotent. If its not in the standard works, but refutes other doctrines contained therein, there is a problem. God is all power. God is the law-giver. God is not held accountable to intelligence. I assume you also subscribe to his other definitions of intelligences. Read "doctrinal exposition of the father and son" concerning "intelligences." It defines them specifically as "spirit children," not pre-sprit essences with agency and choice. There is much we do not know about intelligence and intelligences, but to overassert in theories is not wise, especially when it refutes clear and absolute declarations concerning the status of God.

"to be learned is good if they hearken unto the ccounsels of God." 2 Ne. 9: 29 Thus, to be learned is NOT GOOD if we DON"T hearken unto the counsels of God. 2 Ne. 2: 22 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. BD Death Two kinds of death are spoken of in the scriptures. One is the death of the body, which is caused by the separation of the body from the spirit; i.e., “The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2: 26). The other is spiritual death, which is to die as pertaining to, or to be separated from,righteousness - to be alienated from the things of God (Alma 12: 16, 32; Alma 40: 26). Both of these deaths were introduced into the world by the fall of Adam. But death is also the consequence of our own sins. We make our own spiritual death by our works, our thoughts, and our actions. As Paul said, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6: 23), and some are “dead” while they “liveth” (1 Tim. 5: 6). Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Ne. 2: 22; Moses 6: 48). BD Fall of Adam The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2, 3, 4; and Moses 3, 4. The fall of Adam is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the fall, Adam and Eve had physical bodies but no blood. There was no sin, no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, blood formed in their bodies, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3: 7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14: 16-17). The fall was no surprise to the Lord. It was a necessary step in the progress of man, and provisions for a Savior had been made even before the fall had occurred. Jesus Christ came to atone for the fall of Adam and also for man’s individual sins.