aliasgeorge

Elder McConkie took issue with: 1--the concept that we had agency before we were born as spirit children. He taught this by referencing the unified quorum statement: "doctrinal exposition on the father and son" where it says that the "intelligences" that Abraham saw were "spirit children," not any type of pre-spirit birth entities with agency. 2--Any doctrine that defies the truth that God is the supreme power and lawgiver, not subject to anyone else. He counsels that those who would pull out the verse "or God would cease to be God" look up the definition of the word "hyperbole." Of course God wouldn't do anything ungodly, but its not because there is a higher court that will judge him. Its because he wouldn't, because he is God. He can't because its not in His nature. And just as there is Eternal life, there are Eternal laws. Moses 7:35 and D&C 19:10-12 give us some insight as to what that means. You can look up the McConkie references as easy as I can. I believe they are both addressed in the Promised Messiah. Elder McConkie doesn't stand alone in this. He has made his teachings more easily accesible than others though. Elder Bruce Porter has taught it in my ward as well, along with all of the members of the 12 and first presidency who signed the above cited reference. Look, "elder" Skousen, or however you want to refer to him is a good guy. He spent his life teaching and trying to forward the kingdom in ways that would support his family. I have nothing against him, but everything he taught wasn't exactly right. And anything he taught that is inconsitent with a unified priesthood quorum statement is by definition wrong--end of discussion (see D&C 107:27,29).

One of the more recent sources where the church declares that Jesus is the first born spirit child is in the new special edition Ensign on the Living Christ. Jesus is the First born spirit child of the Father.

I respectfully disagree, and you can read my prior post as to why I feel that the "doctrine" teaches otherwise. It is true that God has not revealed to us all the details of this. But if there was no organized pre-spirit being that was "you," it doesn't diminish who you are in the least. There was no organized physical body for me prior to my conception, and that doesn't diminish the body that I have. I think the same can be said for the spirit.

Thanks for the comment. Do you have the references to the BY and SWK quotes? I'd like to read them to see exactly what they said. I'm not disputing that they taught some truth. And all good things come from God. So in part their teachings were good, and in part they were evil (mni 7). I'm not casting judgement on their personal character, nor that it is divine providence that their teachings have taken such a stronghold in the purposes of God. The initial question was what they did to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ on the earth. My answer is that they did not restore anything. They had no priesthood, restored no covenants, no ordinances, did not teach faith in the Son of God, etc. They taught other moral and ethical things, sure. And all good things are inspired by God. But restored the gospel? No way IMO.

I'm glad this reference is in here. This is the man who has propogated the idea that intelligence is matter with some type of agency. He claims that JOhn Widtsoe taught it to him. Did John Widtsoe teach it to anybody else? Bruce R. McConkie taught me that this concept that God is subject to a higher power was absolutely not true. So which second hand account of an apostles teachings do you want to believe? God reigns supreme over all. He is not subject to any higher power. Intelligence, the matter from which we are created, does not hold God accountable for his actions. God is not subject to anything. He reigns supreme. He is the lawgiver. Everything is subject to Him. He is not subject to anything or anyone. Though I imagine Skousen is very well meaning in his works on this subject, this whole concept he has propogated is preposterous and defies many truths of the gospel.

Hoosierguy. This question of Intelligence has come up before, and I wrote a lengthy post a few weeks ago which I will quote below. I have studied, fasted and prayed for understanding on this issue in the past, and will share some of the sources I have subsequently found. Rather than theorize on these questions, I encourage you to find out what the brethren have taught on this issue--not BYU professors, not unofficial publications of 70s, etc, but what the most current teachings in the church are. I have never found anyone who was able to create a case for your viewpoint using the scriptures and priesthood body statements. You are welcome to belief what you want. But since your question is essentially "is it true?", I will post you my belief that no, it is not, and here is why: Getting back to the original question: One must understand what the term "intelligences" means in scripture in order to make sense of what is going on here. "The Father and The Son" A doctrinal exposition signed by the first presidency and quorum of the 12 define "intelligences" as personal spirit children of the Father. In other words, "intelligences"=Spirit child. This isn't my opinion. Look up the source. Thus "intelligences" were already either male or female--they were spirit children. Confusion comes in when the term "intelligence" comes up--that which always existed and is the matter by which our spirits were created. Joseph Smith taught that “the elements are eternal.” (D&C 93:33) Phrased another way, “intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither can be.” (D&C 93:29) All things were created from eternal matter, both physical and spiritual creations alike (see D&C 131:7-8, JD 13:248). The material from which all things were created was in the beginning with God. It has always been, and cannot be created or destroyed. If it were not so, we could not exist forever as resurrected beings with the “spirit and element, inseparably connected,” able to receive a “fulness of joy;” (D&C 93:33-34) for that which has a beginning will in turn have an end (see TPJS 354). Now the question--is "intelligence" the same thing as "intelligences"? Absolutely not. And if anyone can find more reliable sources than what I have produced, please make them known. To finish this discussion, it is important to note that all of the creative accounts which we have been given are limited to a description of the physical creation alone. We have no revealed account of the spirit creation (see Mormon Doctrine “Creation” 170, Doctrines of Salvation 75-76). What we do know is that God “created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.” (Moses 3:5, 7) We are also told that “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal: and that which is temporal, is in the likeness of that which is spiritual: the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature, which God has created.” (D&C 77:2) From these scriptures, we know that all life was created in spirit before it was created in physical form here on earth, and that the spirit form looked like the physical form it is given here. We also learn that if we have a clear understanding of the truth concerning the physical creation, we can come to understand of the spirit creation as well—for “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal.” Knowing this, we should focus on understanding the physical creation as revealed to man through the prophets of God. As for the physical creation, from what is man created? The dust of the earth. All of our bodies are created from the dust of the earth--eternal temporal elements which never had a beginning, nor will they have an end. But, there was a beginning to our physical bodies. For each of us it started in the womb of our respective earthly mothers. Though the element is eternal, never created nor destroyed, there is a defined moment when that element organized into a physical body. So, why should we think the spiritual creation is any different? Why should we assume that "that which is spiritual" is not "in the likeness of that which is temporal"? Does it make rational sense to speculate any other way using the unified priesthood body statements and cannonized scripture as our guide? Did our physical body have some type of pre-organized state which acted as a precursor form which implanted itself into the womb? NO! All matter is completely disorganized in the digestive tract of the mother, and then organized in the womb. So, why would we hold to some notion that we existed in some type of pre-spirit-child organism that somehow had agency (as supposed in the question)? Its preposterous IMO and defies scripture and the words of the prophets. While scripture is silent as to the spirital creation, it has given us the key to understand it--the physical creation. And to understand the physical creation, one must come to believe what the unified first presidency has declared in "the origin of man" document.

I apologize if this sounds coarse or insensitive, but to be blunt, I do not think Muhammed has done anything to help restore the gospel of Jesus Christ. I do not believe he was a prophet of God, otherwise he would have taught that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not that it was the greatest blasphemy unto death to believe that God had a Son. Kind of a big difference. Yes Islam has much truth in it, but so does every other false religion. And per LDS theology, the church of the devil is any church that is not guided by God. They deceive people away from the truth. They damn the progression of God's children towards faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by water and fire, and ultimately work to prevent our brothers and sisters from entering into the temple covenants. Is it divine providence that certain religions exist and have grown strong. But they do nothing to forward the restoration. They are put in place so that all the prophecies of God's true prophets are fulfilled every whit, especially leading up to the conflicts of the last day. Other churches are good inasmuch as the churchgoers come to know more truth in them, and work towards greater truth. And this can occur in any church. But if any church works to teach false doctrines that conflict with God's true church, and work to inhibit God's children from accepting all the covenant blessings of Israel, then we can effectively deem that church evil. Thus other churches are good in a sense, especially as pertaining to the membership who come to know God better and learn of Him so they can begin to exercise faith, But they are evil as organizations that propogate damning doctrines of deception. Only one church is guided by God through a living prophet, and thus only one church is forwarding God's work in these last days (ie to graft in Israel and Restore them to the Covenants found in the temple. This is what the restoration is all about).

An interesting question. In reading your perspective on this issue, I will submit to you what I see as the falacy in your argument--that being the definition of "'Truth', which is objectively verifiable and scientifically provable." I do not believe this is what it means if something is true. Truth as I see it (and as taught in LDS theology) is defined in D&C 93:24, which states: "24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" With this we learn in verse 28 that "28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things." I recommend you read D&C 93 and study it to understand the LDS beliefs concerning the words "truth" "light" "knowledge" and "intelligence." God defines them differently than the world does. And it is my personal experience in school (especially graduate level) that the world, or many academics of the world rather, unilaterally define "truth" as something that they must be able to "prove" in and of themselves objectively, in a labratory, etc. Whether or not something is true or not depends nothing on what has been done in the lab. If its true, its true regardless of what your western blot showed last week. And that said, according to the tennets of the scientific method, it is impossible to prove something unless you can test it in a controlled setting, able to control all the variables. Much truth can come out of such a setting, but is there any way to actually do such with life's higher questions? about God? about creation? about death? about life after death? spirituality? karma? revelation? Prayer? No. Its impossible. Science has its theories and observations, but due to the nature of the question and limitations of the scientific method its impossible to "prove" something to the extent to "know the truth" about any of these. Though in some areas godless scientists love to say they have "proven" x, y and z about these, and "thats why their athiest" etc. But they must take the same leap of faith to believe their theories as I do to believe in God--the difference is that God has given us a different way to experiment and come to know Him and His truths--which are THE truth as He defines them in D&C 93. Read D&C 93, Moroni 10:3-5, the Bible Dictionary under "prayer," and the Joseph Smith History in the back of the triple (ie book with the BofM, D&C, and PorGP). Logically there is only one conclusion when it comes to questions of this nature--God must reveal himself to man or remain forever unknown. Man cannot come to know God and His higher truths in and of themselves. Thus each of us here in this life have 2 options: try it God's way=seek him humbly and sincerely, obeying his commandments and repenting of our sins, in prayer and fasting to know if He really is there, asking if the Book of Mormon really is true, and if Joseph Smith really is a prophet, and all the other things that you mentioned that you hear in testimony meeting. The other option--don't do it God's way, and remain forever skeptical, unbelieving, or confused about the personal experiences that others will tell us who chose to do it God's way. A man knows the truth concerning these higher questions, which are unanswerable by the scientific method, only when God tells it to him. And God tells the individual through the Holy Spirit in a way that leaves no question to the individual, but due to the limits of language is extraordinarily difficult to describe and convey to others who have not had such an experience--but God will not be mocked. Only those who do it His way, following His methodology, can ever have the personal experience that leads to "knowing the truth." I would be, and was, a skeptic, until I chose to do it God's way and then God kept His promises to me, his child, so that I Know the Truth. Hope that helps answer the question.

My friend, go to Mormon.org - Home and watch the movies and read the literature there. It is the best representation and most accurate representation of our beliefs. Start there, and if you hear anything that differs with it, its wrong. First, good luck in your spiritual journey for truth. I had mine a decade or so ago, and the one question I had for God is--what is the truth? And in short, the only person any of us can actually believe and trust completely is God himself. So, Why am I a Mormon? I already believed in God, Jesus Christ and the Bible, but I chose to read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it was true. The book itself says that God will tell you through the Spirit (Moroni 10:3-5), so I sincerely sought an answer. Long story short--God said yes, and that He calls prophets still today, and that Joseph Smith was the one who placed His true church on the earth. I have never felt so much joy, peace, love, and comfort in knowing that God still speaks to man--for He had spoken to me personally, and can speak to you personally as well through His spirit, and confirm the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. We believe the Bible is scripture, and has the fulness of the gospel. We believe the Book of Mormon is scripture as well. Go to mormon.org and check out the rest of your questions. Good luck with the adventure. God will never fail His children who sincerely seek His counsel.

Interalia, thanks for the comment. As to you and your personal beliefs, you can believe whatever you want to believe. The question I have for you is: upon what are you basing your beliefs? You haven't sited any scriptural reference, nor signed priesthood document. Do you have any upon which you are basing your opinion? This is the huge problem I see in the church. Everybody loves to share their opinion, but the point of the church and the holy Ghost is that we come to know the truth, not philosiphize over what may or may not be. This is true of any and all principles. Many people like to think, but few are willing to pay the price of study, fasting, and prayer to really understand the principles. As for you comment. "Intelligences" did not exist as organized entities until they were born as spirit children of our Heavenly father. Look up and read "The father and the son, doctrinal exposition by the first presidency and the 12." So, why do you and many others believe that intelligences existed as an organized entity before they were born as spirit children? Do you have a reference? Of course some people have taught that, but is it in the scriptures? And what have the unified priesthood bodies said about it? If you're referencing "intelligence"--the matter from which spirit children are made, it had no beginning, nor an end. You physical body is made from "dust" which is matter which had no beginning nor an end. There was no "you" or "pre-you" before you were born as a spirit child. No credible revelatory outlet has ever taught it. Many former and current BYU professors will teach it, but it is contrary to what the unified priesthood body has taught on the matter (see D&C 107:27,29).

Spirits are real. Students of Church History can name a slew of accounts given by the early saints. In fact, if you look up a documentary book on the context behind D&C50, you'll get an idea (see "Revelations of the Restoration" or the autobiography of parly p pratt). Just as Joseph Smith saw God, Cain saw the devil. Opposition in all things. God has his army of the righteous, and the devil has his minions of followers, who go throughout the earth to decieve mankind (see D&C 50:2). Just as the Urim and Thummim is a righteous and holy way for God's annointed to communicate and learn, the devil can use crystals, weegee boards, or anything else as a counterfeit of good. He mimicks God in evil ways so that mankind will get a sour or bad or disbelieving taste in their mouths for the whole subject. This is true of basically every true principle.

I'm sorry to phrase this question so long after the original question, but what is the original quote by Harold B. Lee? It would seem that as this discussion was sparked by the supposed comment, it should be provided. Does anyone have the reference and full quote? Thanks.

Getting back to the original question: One must understand what the term "intelligences" means in scripture in order to make sense of what is going on here. "The Father and The Son" A doctrinal exposition signed by the first presidency and quorum of the 12 define "intelligences" as personal spirit children of the Father. In other words, "intelligences"=Spirit child. This isn't my opinion. Look up the source. Thus "intelligences" were already either male or female--they were spirit children. Confusion comes in when the term "intelligence" comes up--that which always existed and is the matter by which our spirits were created. Joseph Smith taught that “the elements are eternal.” (D&C 93:33) Phrased another way, “intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither can be.” (D&C 93:29) All things were created from eternal matter, both physical and spiritual creations alike (see D&C 131:7-8, JD 13:248). The material from which all things were created was in the beginning with God. It has always been, and cannot be created or destroyed. If it were not so, we could not exist forever as resurrected beings with the “spirit and element, inseparably connected,” able to receive a “fulness of joy;” (D&C 93:33-34) for that which has a beginning will in turn have an end (see TPJS 354). Now the question--is "intelligence" the same thing as "intelligences"? Absolutely not. And if anyone can find more reliable sources than what I have produced, please make them known. To finish this discussion, it is important to note that all of the creative accounts which we have been given are limited to a description of the physical creation alone. We have no revealed account of the spirit creation (see Mormon Doctrine “Creation” 170, Doctrines of Salvation 75-76). What we do know is that God “created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.” (Moses 3:5, 7) We are also told that “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal: and that which is temporal, is in the likeness of that which is spiritual: the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature, which God has created.” (D&C 77:2) From these scriptures, we know that all life was created in spirit before it was created in physical form here on earth, and that the spirit form looked like the physical form it is given here. We also learn that if we have a clear understanding of the truth concerning the physical creation, we can come to understand of the spirit creation as well—for “that which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal.” Knowing this, we should focus on understanding the physical creation as revealed to man through the prophets of God. As for the physical creation, from what is man created? The dust of the earth. All of our bodies are created from the dust of the earth--eternal temporal elements which never had a beginning, nor will they have an end. But, there was a beginning to our physical bodies. For each of us it started in the womb of our respective earthly mothers. Though the element is eternal, never created nor destroyed, there is a defined moment when that element organized into a physical body. So, why should we think the spiritual creation is any different? Why should we assume that "that which is spiritual" is not "in the likeness of that which is temporal"? Does it make rational sense to speculate any other way using the unified priesthood body statements and cannonized scripture as our guide? Did our physical body have some type of pre-organized state which acted as a precursor form which implanted itself into the womb? NO! All matter is completely disorganized in the digestive tract of the mother, and then organized in the womb. So, why would we hold to some notion that we existed in some type of pre-spirit-child organism that somehow had agency (as supposed in the question)? Its preposterous and defies scripture and the words of the prophets. While scripture is silent as to the spirital creation, it has given us the key to understand it--the physical creation.

Palmoni, I read your question about the Holy Ghost/intelligent reasoning. I believe that perhaps your line of reasing took an incorrect turn due to a misconception concerning "intelligences." Based on your reasoning, you see "intelligence" as a pre-sprit entity, which is organized as a being, but not a spirit child. I would challenge this notion as incorrect. Do you have any credible reference to back yourself? As far as I know, Cleon Skowsen originated this "intelligence theroy" that I've described, and others have supported him in it. the problem is that it is refuted by a first presidency and quorum of the 12 statement entitled "doctrinal exposition of the father and the son." And when the unified priesthood body speaks, you might as well put it in the d&C (see d&c 107:27,29). Here is a little explanation about "intelligences": While Jesus Christ is the creator or organizer of all things under the direction of the Father (see Moses 2:1, Mosiah 3:8), we know that some of God’s other children were involved in the creation with Him. Abraham 3:22-24 says: 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; Abraham was shown all the intelligences of our Father in the pre-earth life. It is important to make a clear distinction between “intelligences” and “intelligence.” “By ‘intelligences’ we are to understand ‘personal spirits’” which were created from “intelligence,” or “the light of truth” which “was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (“The Father and the Son: a doctrinal exposition by the First Presidency and the Twelve” June 30, 1916, D&C 93:29) “Intelligences” is therefore synonymous with “spirit children,” and “intelligence” is the unorganized spirit matter from which God’s children were created. In otherwords, spirit children were created out of unorganized spirit element, which is referred to as "intelligence." When Abraham speaks of "intelligences," which are organized, they are the same as spirit children. Its the same thing as how our physical bodies were created out of the dust of the earth. Physical body:spiritual body as dust of the earth:intelligence.

We must be willing to do this, but we should seek to do many good things of our own free will and choice, without being asked. I think Rameumpton is addressing this--that saints will see their poor neighbor's kids and rather than help them will add a west-wing onto their house... The law of consecration is to be implemented in our own personal lives. It means we must do with our time, talents and resources all that we possibly can to build the kingdom. For some, this may be to save as much money as fast as possible, so that they can retire at 55 and serve the lord full time for the next 30 years, rather than work on their golf game at the local country club. For some, this may be to grow companies so they can employ the poor and give them good jobs. The point is that if we are selfish and glut ourselves with our resources, we will be judged and condemned for it--especially if we neglected to help the poor around us to become rich like them. And I don't think giving them money is the answer--on the contrary. It would be spiritually and temporally damaging to give your neighbor a check for the next 30 years. Offering him a job, or helping pay for his kids missions or college is perhaps mor appropriate--or even helping to support him while he goes back to school. The answer is that we should desire to help others however we can, and look for ways to do so. And especially if the spirit subtly prompts you to help someone, you do it of course. I think Ram. and I were getting off on semantics as to "implementation of the law of consecration." I just did an lds.org search, and seen some prophets use that language to describe the "united order." But we're clear, that the law of consecration is alive and well in our personal lives.