FlaviusHambonius

Fred wasn't a conspiring man, he was just the by-product of a little think called addiction. I think Moksha might get a kick out of the KOOL commercial in the earlier post--perhaps a distant relative.

Rachelle, Just my opinion here, but I don't think the missionaries lied to you and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they actually told you the truth. When they told you that they didn't know what you were talking about, they actually were telling the truth--because in fact they probably didn't have a clue or had even heard about the Adam-God theory. As for them saying that a theory never existed or that Brigham Young never wrote or spoke about it, well I would just chock that up to being a 19 year old missionary on the defensive perhaps. How many 19 year old LDS people (missionary or not) do you actually think has heard of The Adam-God Theory? How many 19 year old LDS people do you think has read The Journal of Discourse books? Do you think that the Adam-God Theory was taught in Jr. High or High School Seminary classes? Do you think that they were taught this theory in Sunday School classes? Unless they pound this into them at the Missionary Training Center in a crash course setting--I think most of them do not have a clue, regarding Adam-God--of course I never went on a mission, so I couldn't tell you one way or the other. But who knows, maybe in this day of information at the push of a button, they are much more informed that I give them credit for--but I doubt it. I thought I was pretty informed for a 19 year old in the church, but the Adam-God Theory definitely sneaked by---for several years in fact. I think a lot of people have this pre-conceived notion that these young missionaries are just crammed full of information regarding the gospel and know every little tit and tat regarding LDS teachings and I have to just shake my head. Regards, HB

It sounds like your roomate has created the opposite desired effect that she intended. Her approach was definitely a sure fired way to turn someone off before they have had a chance to tune in. Hopefully in the future your roomate can show you by example why her beliefs mean so much to her instead of pushing them on you. That usually piques a persons interest much faster, and then that same person might start inquiring about the friend's spirituality, beliefs etc. If that doesn't work tell her in a nice way to shut her pie hole, or you will threaten her with the Scientology gig. She might actually be receptive to that idea provided John Travolta and Tom Cruise show up to give the message. Just keep Tom away from the couch.

sixpac you said: "We were given a golden opportunity to repent and return following 9/11, and we have squandered it." That seems to be the pattern over the ages-- A crises happens--people humble themselves--look at what's really impotrtant in their life--provide service to one another--neighbors helping one another etc. Then the immediate crises tends to fade, and people usually go back to their way's--whatever their ways might be. sixpac said: " Is Pres Bush pure? No, but he has been right on in this matter of fighting those that would enslave us." I think the only way they can enslave us is the terrorist cells that are in this country to reek havoc upon us in all sorts of ways--I don't think we had to travel across the globe to start a war (Iraq) based on missinformation--which in my opinion was known to be missinformation by the current administration. sixpac said: "This is just as dangerous as anything during the cold war or the war on Nazism was" In my opinion a completley different war--I think we knew a little of the mindset of the Russians and Hitler---They wanted Global domination--The Ruskies didn't want to be blown off the map with nuclear weapons anymore than we did--Hitler on the other hand if he would have got his hands on the Atom Bomb, would have undoubtably used it (my opinion) I beleive the 'Extremists' on the other hand would destroy us at all costs, even if it means they or their homeland go up in dust to acheive their means. sixpac said: "And those that think that this is all Bush's fault and that they can't wait until he leaves are naive at best, stupid more probably." No, I don't think this is all George W. Bush's fault. I was for him the first time around, not the second time around, and yes I can't wait until he's gone--it's been said he has the most secretive administration of recent history--if not of all history. Now does that make me naive and stupid? Maybe, but unlike W I can say 'nuclear' instead of 'nucular'--I can also say 'terrorists' instead of 'terroristsssss' sixpac said: "As I said earlier, the processes that have been put in place are working." You must be talking about the 'surge' something McCain likes to pat himself on the back about. If the troops would not have been taken out of the townships and cities where they already had it under control, only to be moved somewhere else, they would still be under control, as it is they have to go back in and reclaim it-- more lives, more bloodshed. sixpac said: "I don't care if AlQaeda is killing people in other areas. Why? Because that is up to their gov't to protect them. I only care that I'm being protected, because that is my gov't's job." Really? Why didn't the gov. of Afghanistan step up to the plate and protect the Afghan people from the taliban or go kill AlQaeda troops who were training in their country. As to your comment's about caring only about yourself and the American govt. protecting you-- The 9/11 commission said the U.S. government failed miserably. sixpac said: "I thank God everyday for those that have served bravely to protect me over here, and have put life and limb on the line for me. This farce that 'we support the troops, but will criticize everything our President does' is the epitome of putting 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag." As I do. My Dad who is 91 had a front row seat at Pearl Harbor, and the battle of 'Midway' the battle of 'Iwo Jima', 'Guadacanal' among just a few and was heading out of Okinawa when the first A-Bomb went off over Hiroshima. My brother also served during Vietnam. I missed Vietnam by a couple of years and served in the Army from 77-80 during peace time. So as you can see I do 'Support the Troops' I just do not have to support the president 'in everything he does' and have earned the right to 'criticize' the President, If I so feel inclined to do so. On the other hand, 'W' was kept out of Vietnam by his Daddy and Cheney never served in the military--but yet send so many young men to their deaths because of a war on 'missinformation' and on a war that could possibly go on for years-- That's what I call the 'epitome of putting 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag" as you called it. sixpac said: "The children of Ishmael are just waiting, WAITING, for us to do another Vietnam and pull out because of the libs and traitors in this country that do not wish it well. They are heartened and know all thsy have to do is wait it out." I prefer to call them 'Muslim Extremists' I would hate to put all of Ishmael's children in the same boat--but I get your gist. What are they "waiting out"? A chance to have a civil war later rather than sooner--it seems rather unavoidable--just putting off the inevitable--just my opinion--who knows maybe they will all play in the same sandbox someday--don't hold your breath. sixpac said: "What we need is another Captain Moroni to clean out the traitors that are rejoicing at the difficulties we are having, and in fact are fueling them. But, the BOM is just a story that has nothing to do with our time.... " And all this time I thought Captain Moroni was for Liberty. I don't think anyone is rejoicing at the difficulties of war, even the traitors as you call them--Bloodshed and the loss of life is never worth rejoicing over. And by the way I thought the Book of Mormon has everything to do with our time, in fact was written for our time! Take Care, HB

Just a sidenote: The illigal immigration problem costs more that the war in Iraq-- which is passed onto the American Taxpayer's. Whatever happened to all of the hullabuloo talk by the Bush administration that Iraqi oil would be paying for the cost of the war, or at least a great part of it? This was stated in the beggining of the invasion if I remember correctly--now there is only deafining silence on the matter-- same old, same old, just pass it onto the good old american taxpayer. It's just more hot organic material passing out of the backsides of the arrogant and powerful--tell them what they want to hear for now--eventually it will become a non-matter. I would have voted for Mitt Romney not because he is LDS, but because I think he possibly could have helped the economy.

As most people know by now, the Iraq issue and what to do about it was on the table as soon as Bush entered the White House. It's painfully obvious how mismanaged this war on Iraq has been. To think we were going to invade Iraq, oust Saddam Hussain, liberate the people and leave within a short time was folly thinking in the extreme. I cringe everytime they show W on the aircraft carrier shortly after the invation, with his countance just beaming with pride, only to find out later that he had stepped into the biggest pile of s..t since Vietnam. Even George Sr. had the wisdom not to go into Iraq, during Desert Storm. I will say that W handled the 9/11 tradjedy pretty well as a whole, by going into Afghanistan and liberating the people and especially the woman from the strongholds of the Taliban, but sadly since the focus has been primarily on Iraq for so long, I have heard report's that the Taliban is slowly coming back in Afghanistan. As for the extremist's on the run globally, that could be, but just to a new location to hunker down for awhile that's all. As for breaking them, this will never happen, as they have only become infuriated a hundredfold. As for the weapons of mass destuction, yes they had plenty of time to get rid of most if not all of what they did have--if much at all. As has been shed to light by many experts and even Scott McClleland his former press secretary that they were using limited knowledge on WMD as an exuse to go to war---cylinder tubes, yellow cake uranium etc. As for the comments that our streets are safe now, I sadly hate to burst your bubble but it is only a matter of time when this happens and most experts agree--I hope I am wrong. I think what will happen is well plotted out attacks with dirty bombs, and I also think several cities at the same time-- some cities that were speculated were-- New York, Washington D.C., Boston, Miami, Seattle, Los Angeles, Las Vegas if memory serves me. Chaos, and suffering. Dick Cheney is a very interesting character, with a streak of evil in him, corrupt with power with a disregard for humanity, all within the scope of agenda--HIS agenda (my opinion) Donald Rumsfeld brought Cheney up through the Ford administration when he was a nobody. Awhile back BYU honored Cheney with a achievment award and as they put the ribbon around his head--I kind of felt sorry for the old chap--don't really know why, I just did. I think it's interesting that during the David O' McKay years of the church that the church was predominatly Democrat's until the Reagan years, when it turned around. I think the secret societies, Gadiantons, darkness and corruption--whatever you prefer to call it, is in all segments and parties of the government as has been proven time and time again. Here is a link from PBS FRONTLINE called the Dark Side. I's been awhile since I have seen it--all about the events leading up to the war and many other thing's-- Of course I lap this kind of stuff up--I hope others will take the time to check it out--it's outstanding in my opinion. Sorry, I got carried away and this is so long. FRONTLINE: the dark side: watch online | PBS

HiJolley, I enjoyed the Arther Bloch quote: "A conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking". I think you hit it on the head, because after too much thinking about this Zina subject is that the conclusion I have come to is indeed that I have done too much thinking, and your right I was always putting myself in Henry's shoes and my perspective as to how I would most probably act-- and I hope that would be, to never give consent on releasing the woman I love and my kids like it was just another day at the office--but then again I wasn't in Henry's shoes and of course it will be between The Lord, Zina, Joseph, Brigham and Henry. I have had to drink massive amount of water to aid in my throbbing head over this stuff, :lol:but the story is of no value one way or the other to me as of now-- after trying to absorb this info and decifer things into my interpretation of what happened etc. has been enough to tide me over for a day or two. I think you were right, I was being angry in behalf of another man-- which is totally unproductive and silly and doesn't accomplish anything other than to rile myself up. I enjoyed your comment that 'your purpose has never been to convince anybody of anything--but simply to understand things myself' --- sounds like good sound wisdom to me. Thanks for the comments--it's sounds like your definitly an authority on Polygamy--I'll know who to go to if I have a question:cool: HB

Dale, The referance about Joseph requesting the Quoram to marry and take care of his widows and in some cases Joseph Smith's plural wives were given the choice of the twelve as their husbands for time, to give them the full honor and protection of marriage with an apostle is a quote from Zina's grandaughter--Susa Young Gates--under 'Levirate Marriage' from the link I posted-- that quote comes from the book 'Plurality, Patriarchy and the Preistess: Zina D.H. Young's Nauvoo Marriages" by Martha Sonntag Bradley and Mary Brown Firmage Woodward according to the reference provided in the article. Also, Todd Compton reports that "many of Smith's widows did mary members of the Twelve. Brigham married between seven and nine of them; [Heber C. Kimball] married approximately eleven. He then recounts that other members of the twelve and other prominent Church leaders married seven or more of Joseph's plural widows. Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997), 83----Looks like it's in your book! It's almost 12:30 my time and I have to get up at 3:30 and work a 10 hr day. Beddy by time-- HB

Just to follow up from my first post: Why was Henry denied to be sealed to the love of his life and children? Any thoughts to why 'this Angel' that appeared to Joseph was so pressed to threaten Josephs life and that the Church could not go forward unless he gets Zina sealed to him, and disregard Henry and his possible exaltation with his companion and children? Why was Zina the 'chosen' one--especially since she's married to a man already? Why not a single woman? Was it a test of obedience for Zina? Could it have been ambition to reach celebrity status or at least great security? Could it have been a David and Bathsheba theme as Moksha pointed out? After all, like Jenamarie said "The Lord's Annointed have been doing strange things, and sometimes even screwing up royally, since practically the beginning of time." After all, there's still many in the church that still think Joseph was just married to Emma.

There seems to be no real evidence one way or the other as to whether Henry knew beforehand of Zina's sealing to Joseph Smith. The article states that there is disagreement among authors and scholars as to this issue and that it seems obvious that Henry would have known sometime after the fact, but for many the more tantalizing question is whether he knew beforehand. It seems there is conflicting reports on both sides--but no concrete evidence for either. Of course the sealing for time to Brigham Young as husband and wife, this was done in the presence of Henry and Zina's father, William D. Huntington and John D. Lee. This was done one week prior to leaving Nauvoo and Zina was heavy with child at the time--her second child--FATHERED by HENRY JACOBS--who would be born 7 weeks later. Of course now that Joseph Smith was dead, then according to the levirate marriage that was restored by JS--states that if a faithful blood relative was not available to marry the widow then "a worthy church brother could act in his behalf" But apparently there is a problem with the levirate marriage in the case of Zina because Henry would have been considered "a worthy brother" and already married to Zina--could not his marriage to her been viewed as fullfilling the law? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!! WHY? Because Joseph had asked the Twelve to look after his plural wives-- and poor old Henry just didn't happen to be one of the twelve AND THEN Zina gets to pick which Apostle--I guess if you get your pick of the litter to coin a phrase you might as well aim high---Unbelievable! It seems from what I read that early on that Zina and Henry were happy for the most part, despite I'm sure struggles and trials and tribulation, like the rest of the saints, but for me as of now anyway to think their was no coersion is to have your head stuck in the sand, but thats just my opinion. So after three rejections from Zina to Josephs advances to be his 'spiritual wife' only later to be sealed to Joseph (after being told about the Joseph-Angel-lose his POSITION and the church won't move forward Angel--told to her by her brother Dimick) after being married to Henry--Joseph is martyred and had asked the twelve to look after his plural wives--Zina is starstruck and picks Bro. Brigham--Henry witnesses the sealing of the wife he dearly loves to another man (not just any man mind you) Is sent off on a mission while he is deathly il--right after his wife and children have been hi-jacked from him (my opinion)--OH and by the way Henry, while your out on your mission, it might be a good idea to go wife hunting--when you have a few spare moments--because your now ex-wife and your children will be living with me---Good Luck Henry and come pay us a visit some time. This story REEEEEKS and I wont say like what. I'm approaching 50 years of age-- was born into the covenant--have been around Mormonism all my life and around all types of LDS from all walks of life, so even though it may sound like I'm trying to stir the bowl, I'm not--I am seeking some different insights or angles on this issue, as it greatly disturbs me-- I've already drank the milk as a child---give me some meat, like a big Porterhouse steak, and we'll throw the bones to the dogs. Perhaps this topic is mute for most--I do realize it's hard to leave 'Pleasantville' at times. Thanks for the Posts so far, I really appriciate them. HB

A couple of years ago I stumbled on a article on fairlds.org called 'Zina and her Men: An Examination of the Changing Marital State of Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young' To put it mildly at the time I read it I found it so bizzare that I wasn't really quite sure what to think. To be honest there was some anger and a little disgust in the way this story all came down. I can't say that I really got over the bewilderment of this entire saga, but as time goes on you tend to dismiss things a little from your mind as the days and months and years go by, or at least I did. I finally probably chalked it up to something of a higher order that I couldn't fully comprehend or so the saying goes. At the time I made copies for both of my sisters to read who both had become active and involved with the church as of recent years and have strong testimonies. They didn't have much to say other than they thought it a little bizarre and sad--as I did. Fast forward a couple of years-- I was at work a few days ago and ran into a freind who is very active in the church, actually in my ward (I have been inactive for several years) and the two of us started chatting and I was kidding him about how he doesn't let the grass grow under his feet ( he was divorced a couple of years ago and dates many, and I mean many LDS women from various LDS sites) and somehow this subject came up about some of Joseph Smith's Polyandrous or 'spiritual sealings'. Anyway I told him about this story (what I could remember) and he said to get him a copy and I did and I have not seen him in a few days to see what he thought. In the meantime I got myself another copy and read it again and I must say as I read it I still shake my head in disbelief. Some are familiar with this story and some are not. I started to write the nutshell version, but it was turning out to long, so rather I'm providing an encapsulated version provided by the author (Allen L. Wyatt) of the article from FAIR from a poster on this issue from FAIR. He wrote: Let me provide just one example of critisism stated by a poster on the FAIR message boards: That marriage [of Henry and Zina] started their life and family together. Not long after starting, however, Joseph Smith wedged himself in as a third wheel--that bothers me, but at least Henry and Zina were still able to live and have children together. Then Bro. Brigham comes along, and "one-ups" Joseph by taking Henry's wife and sons as his "property," and then to add insult to injury, sends Henry on a far away mission so he can't cause any problems when Brigham and Zina start to cohabit at Winter Quarters. Hopefully this better explains why I am so disturbed by Joseph's and Brigham's treatment of Zina and Henry. (Author goes on to say--As shall be seen, nothing is ever as simple as black and white as critics like to presume--hence starts the story of her marriage to Henry Jacobs. My question of concern is why in the world was Henry Jacobs not allowed to be sealed for time and eternity to his own wife and two children?????? I hope some of you will read the article, it's about 14 pages long and a page turner. If anything give it the old Evelyn Wood speedread. I hope some people will give some input to this issue-- and no I am not Anti-LDS, in fact I tried among just a handful (small handfull) to try and stand up for issues concerning Mormonism to a great extent on Shawn McCraney's 'Born Again Mormon' web-site (the forum has been dropped awhile back) we sure had a few wing-dingers at times. Here's the link to the article: Zina and Her Men Thanks, HB

Skalenfehl, Just wanted to touch on your comments about the new lead singer in the group Journey. I was watching the 'Sunday Morning' program a few weeks ago, and part of their program was about the group 'Journey' and their new lead singer. Neal Schon, the groups lead guitarist had been browsing on Youtube when he came across the singer they have now aquired. Schon said that he was blown away by his voice and had to get ahold of this man through whatever means possible--Anyway, he did get ahold of him after a time and the rest is history, he immediatley became the new lead singer. His native country is the Phillipines and if memory serves me right, their Father had abandoned the family, so it was just him, his Mother and some siblings. They were dirt poor and it was all they could do to eat and survive. His Mother had always ecouraged him throughout his life with his music and God-given talent-- I can't remember if his Mother has passed or not, but during the interview he broke down in tears about his Mother and his great love for her. I can't remember the Gentelmans name, but a great story. His voice is almost identical to that of Steve Perry's. I'm sure when he sings 'Don't Stop Believing' possibly has a great meaning for him. Great pics, and glad you had a great Fathers Day! HB

Although the statement about the pinebox was in a different time and metaphorically spoken, I would imagine it would have been a huge statement to tuck back into the corner of ones mind, whoever the recipient might be. If I would have went on a mission I couldn't have imagined my Dad saying such a thing before my departure. (He was born in 1917 and about as Old School as it gets) Instead I would imagine him saying something to the effect of 'Be the Best You Can Be'. If I would have faltered into some kind of immorality, I'm sure their would have been some disappointment (mostly in myself) but I can only picture my Mom giving me nothing less than unconditional love in spite of the mistake committed, whatever that mistake might be. 19 year olds make mistakes as hard as they try and as pure as their intents might be. Most missionaries go with full purpose of heart and mind--but if we were honest with ourselves, some go just to please family, without that same purpose of heart--sad but true in some instances. I would know one thing-- that I had caused sorrow for the one that was scourged, beaten, spat upon, he who suffered physically and spiritually on a incomprehensible level and who bled from every pore in the Garden and was hung upon a cross to die for my sins and the sins of mankind--Yes, I would have brought dishonor and trampled under foot my Saviour and therein lies the true dishonor. But through the Atonement and the hope for his grace and tender mercies we have hope for a brighter day-- otherwise only darkness. True, Remorsful Repentance with a sincere broken heart can do wonders for the cleansing of ones spirit. Blessed be the one who was sent. Would we consider the one who denied Christ--thrice as one who returned with honor because of fear for his life? Apparently so, since we consider that same man Exalted, do we not? There's alway's hope in the Atonement.