unixknight

I thought you agreed that these officers should be answerable?

Could be, we'll probably never know. I dunno why he ran, since they didn't find anything illegal on him, but I'd be lying if I said I can't imagine why someone would want to avoid the Baltimore Police... Edit: Sorry for the double post.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. Some anomalies about that investigation, as well as some unusual elements related to the Grand Jury, are starting to bring that into question.

I don't think anyone's calling for a railroading, my friend.

Ah so it's the victim's fault. Weren't you the one just now saying that someone is innocent until proven guilty? I don't think you answered my question, or if you did I didn't quite understand. Are you against having these officers answer for Mr. Gray's death?

Ok, allegedly. But be aware, brother, there's a flip side to that coin. The next time anyone mentions whatever Mr. Gray did to attract the attention of the police, I'm counting on you to come in and make sure they say "allegedly" as well. Fair? The Baltimore police are well known for their love of excessive force. The Baltimore city government literally budgets in a few million for settling excessive force lawsuits. Do I think these guys allegedly killed Mr. Gray on purpose? No I don't, but intentional or not, their actions (or inaction, depending on exactly what happened) resulted in his death. Simply put: If the cops hadn't arrested Freddie Gray, he'd be alive today. Broken necks don't just spontaneously happen. Incidentally, all indications are that they arrested him for nothing. According to officials, he ran when they saw him, but the only thing he had on his person was a knife, which is legal in the state of MD to carry. So, as far as we can tell, he was literally arrested for nothing, and is dead now. So yes, I think LP is quite right to celebrate that charges are being brought against these men. Because yes, not following procedure CAN mean someone's death, as it appears to do in this case. Are you against having these men answer for Mr. Gray's death?

They caused the death of a man. Even the BPD has admitted they failed to follow procedure. In what universe is it a bad thing that these men be brought to account for their actions? If indeed they did no wrong then they'll be exonerated. If they did wrong then shouldn't they answer for it? Some already decided they're renegade, some have already decided they can do no wrong just because they wear badges.

Seems like that stuff should be a no brainer, doesn't it? And yet...

Well yeah that does tend to be true... I guess I just welcome ANY outside party to investigate. I couldn't stop rolling my eyes when they were initially saying the BPD would do an internal investigation. Noooo conflict of interest there... I'm glad it wasn't left at that.

Apparently the Feds are getting involved too. Not sure how I feel about that except to say that if this is what it takes to ensure a thorough investigation, then by all means go for it.

Wow that was hostile... Anyway, looks like the officers are being charged.

Yes but how else can they justify all the military hardware, no knock warrants and battle fatigues? Anywho...

Isn't Drudge a gathering point for Conservative articles? (I just grabbed that as an example to make my point but maybe I sabotaged myself ) Haha you're on!

Fair enough. As for the injury... I'm not a doctor but as I understand it, if the injury was high enough to damage the nerves carrying signals to regulate respiration or heart function, it's easy to see how it can be fatal. As I understand the preliminary medical reports, the damage was to his neck area. But your question is a good one... why is he dead? He was sufficiently healthy to run, and by the time he got out of that van he was fatally injured. The local government here has been testing the waters with spin saying Freddie hurt HIMSELF in the van. To anyone who believes that: I have some beachfront property in Nebraska to sell you if you're interested...

That's right, but when your options are "Hey, we care about your plight" and "Hey slacker, just get a job and move away." I'm not prepared to pass judgement so easily. Side note: I agree that HuffPo is generally little more than left wing propaganda, but the problem is that sometimes they actually serve a purpose, which is to provide insight into how people on the left see things. We conservatives suffer the same malady liberals do, namely, we have heavy confirmation bias and tend to be deaf to the point of view on the other side. I would suggest that the approach of simply dismissing someone's link because you don't like the domain name at the beginning of it is pretty insulting. Do you like it when a liberal refuses a link of yours because it's from Fox news or Drudge?

Yeah that's super annoying. I think on some level it's true that we need to have walked a mile in each others' moccasins, at the same time I think it's possible, with a little open communication, to help someone understand even if they can't take that walk. So I just read LP's links and I largely agree with them, but the second one, not entirely. I don't think the complacency of people outside the slums is necessarily due to racism. I think it is sometimes, but there are plenty of people who have no racism in their heart who still say things like "They ought to just take some personal responsibility and/or move." A person doesn't have to be a racist to say that. Instead, I think the problem is complacency in general. As Conservatives, we believe in self reliance and personal responsibility, and we have great faith in our point of view. I'm a huge believer in the idea that we all make our own destiny. The problem is that when we have such great faith in that principle, we tend to think that everybody can just get on top of their situation, all of the time. We kinda need to believe that, because otherwise our sense of personal empowerment becomes threatened. If some inner city family from West Baltimore can't get out and is stuck in the slums, then that could also have happened to us, and that thought is scary. It's scary to me. I like to believe... I NEED to believe that as long as I keep doing my best, taking responsibility and working hard, I'll never end up like the people in those slums. And maybe, as far as my faith in Heavenly Father and His designs remains strong, that won't happen or, if it does happen, things will be ok. And that's good... but not everybody puts their faith in God. And maybe that's the real problem... maybe there isn't enough of God's presence in the culture of ghetto life... Maybe if more people in that part of town went to church and got closer to God then they'd be able to seize their destiny as a community and make things better... maybe. But when we, as believers, are charged with spreading the Gospel and showing compassion to our brothers and sisters, are we supposed to only show compassion for people who live up to our expectations of how to live? Are we supposed to only care about the suffering of the people who we, personally, judge to be worthy of it because they've met our standards for trying hard enough to get out of their situation? Are we released from any obligation toward those who we, in our human wisdom, have determined aren't trying hard enough?

Brother, it isn't that we don't want to talk about it. The problem is that it feels like every time someone tries to talk about something else, we get accused of being cop haters or liberals and summarily dismissed. (You haven't done that, and I do appreciate it. My impression of several senior members has suffered because I see them doing it.) I mean seriously, what else is there to say about rioters? Yep, rioting is bad. Stealing's a no-no. You shouldn't burn police cars. Ayup. We've all agreed on this. The people who are lighting fires and throwing rocks at cops have no personal responsibility and should be locked up. Yes, we get it. We agree. Nobody's saying riots are justified or that looters are entitled to steal whatever they can grab. I'm just not sure where else there is to go on that point, especially because I personally regard it as a distraction. I feel like people want to keep focused like a laser on that topic because they have some kind of aversion to acknowledging that, at least in some places (such as Baltimore), policing is BROKEN. There are severe tensions between the police department and the community and nobody wants to hear anything hat doesn't put cops on a pedestal and put every scrap of blame on the community. People from other countries, even ones where the people don't have a 4th or 5th Amendment look at the police in the United States and say "Man, you guys' cops are out of control." Brother, that' a PROBLEM, and that problem isn't going to go away by trying to force the conversation to stay focused on the stuff we all already know... Rioting is bad, mmmkay? Will you concede that the Baltimore Police Department has mishandled this incident? Will you concede that Freddie Gray probably died due to excessive force on the part of the arresting officers?* (*I say probably because, to be fair, the investigation isn't over and we don't have all the facts yet.)

I think we've all repeatedly said we agree on the point that lawlessness isn't the answer. I assure you, the horse is dead. How wonderful the world would be if things were that simple though, wouldn't it? One doesn't have to agree with the behavior of rioters to be able to recognize that there's a very serious problem that's getting ignored by those who prefer to just blame the rioters and ignore everything that led up to this.

Wow... Brother... that post, man... For starters, you do a grave disservice to the people of Baltimore with these comments. You talk about personal responsibility being lacking, which tells me you haven't heard the story of the people who went out on the morning after the riots and started cleaning up the streets, taking responsibility for the condition of their neighborhood after the looters had their little party. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/baltimore-community-cleanup_n_7162666.html I also think it's unfair to just dismiss it as overreaction and on that basis, ignore them. As LP's link pointed out, the peaceful protests had been going on for days with -zero- national attention. If you can't imagine why that's frustrating then I don't know what will help. And to say the vast majority aren't protesting anything... That's flat wrong. The vast majority WERE peacefully protesting (and continue to do so) but all the media is showing you is the violence. If the reasons for THAT aren't obvious... then again, I don't know what would help. And just "move" is a cute suggestion but people who have no money can't just decide to move out of West Baltimore and head out to the 'burbs and into a nice $350,000 house with a white picket fence, a minivan and a German shepherd. I DO agree that to an extent they brought some of this on themselves by religiously voting Democrat when the Democrat party has demonstrated breathtaking apathy toward the problems in the inner city, but why should they vote Republican when the best advice they normally hear from the right is "Well why don't you just move somewhere else?" At least the Dems pretend to care.

^This. "Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."—Christopher Hitchens

For anyone who still doesn't quite understand the frustration and anger being felt by people in Baltimore, just take a look at LP's link to the timeline. " Officials say he was able to climb into the back of a police van." Lie. Video taken by witnesses show several officers physically lifting Gray into the van. "Police have said they don’t know whether Gray was injured during his arrest or while in the van." Lie. Video shows them physically carrying Gray, who was in severe and visible pain, after he was cuffed. Surprising fact: WHEN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT OPENLY LIES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, PEOPLE WILL STOP TRUSTING THE POLICE. This isn't cop hate. This isn't thuggery. This isn't people looking for an excuse to cause problems. This is what happens when you insult the intelligence of the people you're supposed to be serving. As I said earlier, nobody's excusing the opportunistic looters. I'm talking about the legitimate anger and frustration being felt by people who feel as if their own city law enforcement is a bigger threat to them than the crime in the streets they're supposedly being kept safe from by the police department. I drive through that areas on my way to and from work sometimes. (My preferred route is to take Martin Luther King Blvd to I-395 but sometimes traffic is bad there so I go the North Avenue way.) It's a demographically black part of the city and some of it is run down with many abandoned townhouses. Would I walk alone at night in that part of the city? Probably not, but I feel less threatened by that prospect than by the notion of dealing with the BPD... ...which I have. I flagged an officer down once after I was in a minor car accident and the other driver fled the scene. The officer treated me with suspicion and openly suggested I was up to some kind of shenanigans. (And I look white, so this isn't a claim of racism.)

Have they actually come out and said that? Last I heard the BPD was still silent on the matter.

It's a lot easier to pay out "shut up" money than to actually fix a broken system. Of course, this is made easier when all the attention is focused on the rioters and not on the root causes. IMHO The riots are a red herring. We know that'll blow over in a couple of days so that's what the media focuses on. Solving the issues that got us to this place... much harder. Easier to just blame the rioters with a little thinly veiled racism and ignore the misdeeds that triggered it in the first place. Anyone want to bet me there WON'T be more demonstrations and possibly riots if the officers who killed Freddie Gray don't suffer any consequences?

As far as I can tell nobody here is defending looters. We prettymuch all agree on that. However, that's no reason to ignore all of the factors that led up to this.

Because he's dead. And actually, we don't even know that he was a criminal. BPD keeps refusing to release the reason Gray was arrested in the first place. Obey the law, yes... absolutely, but what we're talking about here is when public officials (not just the police) do not seem to have any accountability and people become frustrated.