CatchTheRedeye

Sure, we can be companions. Do you snore? Altair-3, right on! You mean the next trip to the moon planned in about 2020, right? I'm all far space exploration. I think they ought to build a Space Elevator and build everything needed for and cheaper resupplying for a lunar colony from it. I just don't want to ever go myself. I don't even like to fly. The Space Elevator Reference brought to you by SpaceRef

I hope I don't offend anyone in responding to this thread as an agnostic who doesn't believe in god or Jesus. I respect all of your opinions. I especially appreciate ABQfriend when she says that she doesn't really understand the idea of the Trinity, but she believes in her church and maybe someday she'll understand it but she's not worried about it for now. That being said, whenever anyone tries to explain the Trinity concept to me it just sounds like a litany of canned phrases and my head starts to spin. It seems like a mass of confusion that I can't come close to grasping. The godhead is a three-in-one spirit essence that fills the immensity of space? It has no body, parts, or passions? The godhead is unknown, unknowable, and uncreated? I searched and found a talk from the Mormon apostle Bruce Mcconkie discussing this and to me the LDS belief in the godhead is much more believable. One thing he talks about, however, that I don't understand either is the notion that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. IMHO only. I know this is a thread for 'traditional christians' but the speech I am talking about can be found at: The Mystery of Godliness - Bruce R. McConkie

Though I don't think we can ever completely remove our bias we should attempt to recognize it exists and try to eliminate it as much as possible, or at least be cognizant of it. Attempt to look at things from different viewpoints. Doing so I am often amazed by the results and realize that perhaps my thinking on a certain subject might be flawed. I have even been known to change my mind from time to time after doing so. Try it. I play a little game sometimes when reading something controversial. I will read it again from a completely different frame of reference. For example, when I first read the Book of Mormon I admit I was biased that it was a chicanery I could easily disprove. I was still negative about it after reading it. Then one time I read it I convinced myself to try to read it as a faithful Mormon would, thoroughly believing in its veracity. Suddenly, I wasn't so sure it was a concocted sham. Is it true? Maybe not, but now it is one of my favorite books, whether fact or fiction, and I've read thousands of books. After reading all these posts and much more on the subject of Truth I am still not sure what Truth is. Today's truth is often tomorrow's anecdote.

Missions sound fun. I want to go on one and I'm not even a Mormon.

Do you mean to tell me that not everything I read on the internet is true? No!!! I refuse to believe it! Oscar Wilde himself said, "Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as nothing happened." Or was it Winston Churchill?

Sounds very interesting Elayne, the kind of stuff I like to read. I'll definitely take a look at it.

Thanks everybody for all of the good ideas. I'm going to read them all except for maybe those Work and Glory books. That's not my thing. For those who recommended Joseph Smith, A Rough Stone Rolling you were right on. I read it this week and it is outstanding. I think the author, Bushman, tried to be as objective as possible. It was fascinating. He would be the first to admit that nobody can be completely unbiased, but I think he tried to be a true historian first. As a not-Mormon I enjoyed it. I'm reading the Messiah Series now by Bruce R. McConkie. He sort of sees everything as real black and white, with no grays, but he makes no bones about it. It is interesting. Somebody mentioned they like the older LDS books and I agree. John A. Widtsoe and James E. Talmage come to mind. Someone else suggested reading different versions of the Bible too and I have, many times. One of my favorite concordances was written by an atheist, Isaac Asimov, and his Guide to the Bible: A Historical Look at the Old and New Testaments. He didn't denigrate the Bible or those who believe it and seemed to really enjoy all the history behind it, from a scientific not faith-based view. It gives a different perspective. He was such a brilliant man.

More power to book snobs! There is so much worthless stuff out there. I can sort of see why a lot of people like the Twilight series. A girl friend forced me to read them. She practically held a gun to my head, and then was less than amused when I wasn't very impressed. I'm just so tired of the all-powerful vampires cliché. Ann Rice's books were better and they were even too much. I did read Meyer's new book, The Host. That was better, and was fairly good sci-fi, other than the gaggy romance parts and where it drug on at times.

I would like some advice from my LDS friends. I have read the Book of Mormon eight times this last year(not bragging, I just read a lot and read fast) and would have to say it has become one of my favorite books, whether it is fiction or not. I even encourage my friends at the university to read it, not as a missionary, but I tell them it is amazing that a hick in the early 1800's wrote it. Some have taken me up on the challenge. If you want to read my thoughts as an agnostic on reading the book look at my personal belief comment on it. It has led me to read further so I've read the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, Jesus the Christ, Articles of Faith and A Marvelous Work and Wonder. I have read plenty of stuff by un-Mormons. Any suggestion on good, more recent, LDS books that would help me learn more about church history, Joseph Smith, LDS beliefs and practice?

I don't believe in any god or in Jesus Christ. Does that make me a son of perdition in your eyes? I don't consider that I am fighting against either or those who believe in them. I just don't believe for or against their existence. I know when I have run across this concept in Mormon writings it has been a little confusing to me. Do you think it would it be better for sons of perdition to have never come to earth at all or are they still better off than the ones who never came to mortality?

As a young non-Mormon single guy the whole idea of a year's supply of food sounded so silly and Chicken Little-ish that it made me laugh. It sounded desperate. But, now, with the way the economy is going my young naive mind can see some wisdom in it. Things could really snowball to head south quickly, and I'm not talking about natural disasters, but man-made economy disasters. I basically live on ramen noodles and spaghettios. How can I keep ramen noodles long-term without them going bad? I think am going to follow Mr. Raines suggestion and buy a bunch of the bachelor staple of SPAM.

This whole abortion debate is bull. "I want to have my freedom of choice whether it means murder of a new life force growing inside of me or not, boo hoo." I think that when we die that is the end of it, but life goes on. Murder is murder so what gives a person the right to take away that life force's opportunity to live too whether the mother's mistake messes up her life or not? They deserve the chance to live. The only time I can see doing abortions is if the fetus was determined to be severely deformed and wouldn't survive birth anyway or if it's birth was definitely going to risk the life of the mother. Just a weird agnostic's view on abortion... ummm... I mean murder. See, not all liberals are Pro Choice.

ABQFriend, Sorry, that was getting personal and no, I hadn't read your other posts that showed you think Mormons are Christians. Good for you. I would have to say that for a christian, you sound wise. I just get real peeved at Christians who dare say Mormons aren't Christians and I'm not even one myself. CTR

Kona, I should correct my last post. Interplanetary travel is possible, but I have serious doubts about interstellar travel. The closest star is Proxima Centauri at 4.2 light-years away, but who knows if it even has livable planets around it? The fastest spacecraft we have sent yet has only gone like 1/500th of a light-year. I know there can be improvements in space travel like nuclear pulse engines and magnetic sails and more, but I just think it is so far-fetched. The only possible way is generational ships where the descendants of the original ship passengers would arrive at a planet, but that would be so risky. There is life out there, but I'll bet it is spread pretty thin. I hope I'm wrong, though. Space travel would be so cool. I'm just a cynic.

I just can't believe in UFOs from other planets. Yes, I believe there is life on other planets. That would be crazy to think ours was the only one of billions of planets that has life on it. The distance to the closest star, however, is so incredibly far that I just don't see interplanetary travel being possible. No vehicle could exceed the speed of light with all the vast amount of resources it would need to still travel that far. Wormholes? Right, that's just dreaming up some possible way and is wishful thinking. That's not to say that I don't love sci-fi movies and books, but they are just FICTION. OK, I don't believe in god either, but one thing has always bothered me. Why are we the only sentient species on Earth. It seems like there should really be more than one that has evolved. JMHO

Livy, I did look at every one of them. I even passed some on to friends. You are right. They were very very very interesting. Much food for thought. Thanks.

Hemi, I don't want this thread to turn to a discussion on my beliefs on evolution. It is about lilly111us' clips from FAIR on responses to Book of Mormon criticism. I am impressed by this book. I can't imagine how a young Joseph Smith could have made it up. Having said that my core belief is still that all life evolved from very simple life, including man evolving from ancient primates or some hominine. There is just so much undeniable evidence of the evolution of modern man (Homo Sapiens) from Australopithecines to Homo Erectus to Homo Neanderthalensis, with other species in between. I suspect you would probably respond with the fallibility of the learning of man... experts used to think the world was flat too... blah blah blah. You would be right. I did hear mention of a very possible explanation for it all (which shocked me) on a post somewhere on this site that maybe there actually was all that evolution and even a later species like Cro-magnon man at the same time that God placed Adam and Eve on Earth, just like the Bible says! Then that last species died out or was killed off by modern man or was even destroyed in Noah's flood. Hey, that could actually be an explanation and then wouldn't I look dumb for having been an agnostic because I believed so strongly in evolution when I woke up on the other side after dying? Hmmm...... I would rather there be life after death than not. I'll admit it.

Thanks for this. I went through each clip and found it very interesting. I'm looking into the Mormon church and I have read a lot of stuff for/against. Besides, the phantom typing at the beginning of each segment, which drove me crazy, I found this very thought provoking and reasonable counters to Book of Mormon criticisms I've heard. When I read the Book of Mormon I asked myself, "How did a young man like Joseph Smith ever come up with this stuff?" After seeing this I am more amazed. Now just explain evolution to me vs the Adam/Eve story.

Checkerboy, be sarcastic all you want. I'm just dying to know if that is your real hair or not. I think I saw you playing in a band once.

Yeah, sad stories like this about our cousins, the gorillas, really tears me up. (I couldn't resist )

How about nadatheism - the belief in no gods

So what is a a pagan, mystic, shaman, buddhist, wiccan, gnostic, unitarian-universalist? I've studied religions a lot too and I'm still just as confused about them all as I ever was. I am an agnostic drawn to look at the LDS church and your journey took you away from it. What was the cause? Don't answer that if you don't want to. I come here because I like Mormons and decided to learn more about them. This is a good site. 75.67 % of the people are really nice.

I've read your Book of Mormon a couple of times and I admit it is fascinating. Did Smith really write (translate) that when he was real young? Can his young age be proven or is it just legend? I don't know how he could have made that all up. If Isaac Asimov (an atheist) had written that before he died everyone would say it was a great alternate history work and it would be highly touted. I appreciate all the comments in this thread. Very interesting. PrisonChaplain, you are right that there are anti-Catholics and others. I shouldn't have said there weren't. It just seems that a tiny church like the Mormon church (sorry, 13 million is tiny) gets more than its share of persecution. That is one of the things that made me interested in it in the first place. So I guess the antis plan backfired in me. Thanks anti-mormons. If there was one true church and if there was a devil it makes sense that the true church would be fought against. IMNSHO :)

Now you all have me real curious. I'm new to this site, but what the heck are garments, other than clothes you wear? Sounds like a sensitive subject to Mormons and I've never heard about it before. I have LDS friends and it seems like they wear the same clothes as anyone else to me. I guess I can ask them or will they throw me to the ground and put a half-nelson on me if I do? Do all Mormons wear garments, or do you have to be a certain age?