jschroeder

Just another thought and then I will be quiet, for a bit:) How many times when a person does end up dieing from suicide (since be are speaking of definition) did they really, really intend on killing themselves right up until that final moment of consciousness and that final breath? How many changed their minds, realized how horrible a mistake they were making, found a reason to hang on - only for it to be too late? Yes, maybe their actions look like suicide but what was their mind and their heart? Where was their soul in all of it, for how long and was it in the same place when they left this world and entered the next? Again, there are so many variables we may never know. I think the one thing many of us agree on, and it's a good point to agree on, is that the Savior is the one who will judge and He knows best and it is in His Hands....where it belongs. That may be the best we are going to get on this one...and that's not a bad thing to agree on :)

This may be a little off the subject here but isn't any time we break a commandment declaring we know better than God? Any time we refuse a calling, refuse an inspiration? Much in this life is left up to our individual interpretation with the guidance of the scriptures, our leaders, our conscience and the Holy Spirit. Yet I am aware of numerous times, too many, that I have in essence, said "I know what's best for me" and not followed promptings, made mistakes and walked away from things that I could and probably needed to be doing. Such is the reason for repentance...none of us are perfect and if we always knew that God knows better, which I think we do intellectually, and we always followed that knowledge, then we would all have no need for the Savior. I for one, need Him!! Every second of every day I need Him in my life because I make mistakes, I err in my judgment and I don't always "agree", for lack of a better word, that God knows best. I try to do things my way, and that's not always in "bad" or "terrible" ways, just a statement that I need not seek His counsel because I know better. I think some of this sounds, too me, like the difference between following the "letter" of the law and following the "spirit" of the law. I would not want to judge which is which in many cases, I think this is one of them.

I would have to ad that so is a father rushing back into a burning building to rescue a child, even though the odds are against him coming out alive. Nothing is set in stone, he could somehow miraculously make it. What would he live with for the rest of his life if he did not at least try? It is easy to say, under no circumstance would I ever do that. I for one, however, can never say never. I do not know what I would do in someone else's shoes. I would have to rely on the Lord to help me through it in whatever way He saw fit. Having been down this road myself I have to say it is not that easy to find an answer to the many variables of this question with a simple blanket answer of I would never....I used to think that, too. Things happen in our lives that we could never imagine what our reaction would be and life can hand us some issues we would never have expected to have to deal with. Depression, drug addiction, alcoholism, violence...all things that none of us can truly predict how we would respond to. And before anyone responds with there is the Word of Wisdom to help us avoid some of those things, I will say it is true, that is there for our benefit. Not everyone has that knowledge and not everyone who receives that knowledge after already having been there can stay in that path. Life is hard, we make mistakes and hopefully we learn and grow and move on. Suicide is one that, at least in this life, there is no growth. Repentance can only come from the other side and from there it is pretty hard I imagine to tell the people you left behind how sorry you are once you see what could have been. As I have said in previous posts, I have Chronic Major Depression and at my worst I did attempt. I would never in a million years think of such a thing if I had not been depressed. I am thankful for Priesthood leaders who did not judge and who were only concerned with helping me find my way back and getting the treatment I needed. I am thankful that Heavenly Father knows our abilities and knows when we are fully accountable and when there are things in the way of our making the choices we would normally make. I have also had people I know who have attempted.....and succeeded. There is no way to describe that pain and the questions that run through one's mind. And the only peace to be found is to be found in the mercy of the Lord Himself. It is a good thing that our Heavenly Father knows our hearts and minds and that the Savior Himself will judge us for our actions and lack thereof, as well as the intent of our hearts and minds. We can only see the actions of another through our own experiences and that is limited to what we have lived through and done in our lives. He alone has felt what we all will feel, He alone has suffered what some of us will suffer here. He alone, will judge all of us and I for one am comfortable with that. Some questions are just too complicated to answer in this life without an eternal view. At least that is my take on the subject, and I could be wrong, but it works for me and my conscience is ok with that.:) I guess I have rambled long enough though.

I for one am not tired of hearing from you. I think most of us are just concerned to see someone is so much turmoil as you seem to be. I'm guessing here because I'm fairly new to the site, but I have a feeling that not one person who has responded to you has not had hard times in their lives. We can only offer our ideas and suggestions and keep listening and caring...in the end you are the only one who can change your life. The service you give is a good start. When you mow the elderly's grass do you see their eyes and their faces when you arrive, when you are done? To them you are our Fathers answer to a prayer. If He would answer their prayers He will answer yours as well. Sometimes He answers "wait a little longer", sometimes "no that's not going to help", sometimes "come to Me and together we will get through this". I'm not sure what you are asking for, although I'm hearing quite a bit of "I want out of life" in your threads...that is never a request He will grant until it is your time to finish your journey here and move on. Might be a better idea to maybe ask to know what He would have you do with all the experiences you have had in your life, how to turn them into blessings for others and eventually for yourself as well. Keep talking Walter something will change :) for the better

OH Walter it could be soooo much worse, you have no idea!! So you are tired, ask for strength to continue inspite of being tired. Ask for what you need to do His will. You know the only thing we have that we can give to our Father freely, that He has not alredy given to us, is our will. When you align your will with His you can over come whatever life is handing you. You were meant to overcome whatever is in your way Walter, no matter what it is. Heavenly Father is there waiting for you to let Him in and help you. You need to invite Him, He will not intrude. Just one other thought here, do you really know how much He is already helping you? Whenever I get to a point where I think nothing could be any worse than the pain and agony I suffer I am reminded to go and seek those less fortunate than I am. And they are all around us Walter. Sometimes we get so caught up in our own pain we forget that one of the best ways to help ourselves, is to help someone else.

I know. I wish there was a way we could track him down and check on him... Regardless my heart goes out to the young man. Life is hard and I can only hope and pray that he read something before he got off that will make a difference in his life...and that he is ok.

Mirium Outside of what has already been offered have you thought about involving the missionaries? Will go to teaching appointments with them? Will he go visit new members with them? That can be a powerful way for him to keep his testimony and to keep feeling the spirit and then bare his testimony. We are a very small branch and so are fortunate in that the missionaries we have had here that taken the young men under their wings and do invite them to appointments. I know that has helped a number of our young men decide to actually go on missions and to stay strong in the gospel. I also took the stand with my oldest daughter that she must attend church while she lived in my home. She did so grudgingly and is inactive now. Because of that I allowed my youngest daughter to make that decision when she was 15. She is also inactive although does still attend once in awhile. So I'm probably not the best person to be handing out advice on this one but I can certainly understand your concerns and your fear for your son. My only other thoughts would be to pray for all the help you can get from Heavenly Father, the leaders where you are and then be open to whatever inspiration comes. Good luck and you and your son will be in my prayers.

If you check his profile he hasn't been back up on the site, not logged on, since he posted that:( Looks like he was back up here about 8 hours after and that is the last time he was on. I'm just going to keep praying that he will get some help, talk to someone, and check back in eventually.

:balloons: Hope you have a great day tomorrow and all the rest of your year. Many happy birthdays to come :)

Walter If you want to find that love you can, it's up to you. I have found that in order to experience that love first hand you need to start small. Baby steps. Find a place that you enjoy and do some volunteer work. Put your heart and soul into the people you serve and work with. Slowly you will experience what you radiate outwards. It can be hard, really hard to start with, but with all things start small and keep it simple. See how many people you can make smile in an hour - you'd be surprised. Very small and simple things can bring you some joy. Sounds silly to start that small but it works. Would you give a newborn steak to eat or baby food even? No they need milk and that's it. To give them more would harm them and eventually kill them. So start small and grow more. Yes there will still be times (a lot of them) that you will not feel loved because ultimately that love for yourself has to come from YOU. :) I know that my knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has brought me more happiness and love in my life than anything else. I have two grown children and a new baby grandson and life is good. It's hard but it's good. Pray....seriously Pray day and night to whomever you believe God to be. Be angry and grieve for the things you have not experienced in your life - yet!! And then ask Him to help you find them - I know He will. He is a loving Father Walter and I know He LOVES YOU!! You may not be able to feel that right now but that does not change the truth HE LOVES YOU WALTER!! Go to Him and ask Him to help you and He will. Maybe not in the ways you expect but He will guide you if you will follow Him. That is why I said in my original post we will all be judged by someone who knows our hearts and our minds and our very souls. He knows our struggles and He knows how far we have come and how far we can go. I would not want to be judge by anyone else....because in our limited minds we cannot even begin to imagine the heart of another person. One last thing. Yes the damage is done. That is true, it was for your mother and who knows how many people back in your family. It was for my mother and myself and my brothers and sisters. That stinks and it hurts and if feels very unfair HOWEVER it is done. We can never go back and change the past what we have is today and all of our tomorrows. Who knows, Walter you may be the very person that Heavenly Father is counting on to break years of abuse...to break the cycle of that unfortunate legacy in your life. You may be the one He needs to make sure that any future generations know what real love is all about. There may be somewhere someone who will benefit from your suffering as we all benefit from the Savior's. I don't wish what I went through on anyone. I can't say I enjoyed those times in my life but I can say with certainty if I had not experienced them AND then turned them over to our Father I would not be where I am today and I would not have the capacity to love and be loved as I do today. We all have important things to learn in this life and maybe I needed/wanted to learn to be more loving or compassionate. I don't know. All I do know is that we each have a life to live, we each have choices every second of every day as to how we live that life, what we allow into it and where we allow it to take us, which path to travel. I have to tell you that traveling the path I believe my Father would have me is not always easy, it is not always on flat ground and the way is not always without obstacles but it is always close to Him, and it is filled with His love. I can't imagine living my life any other way now. You can have that in your life - if you want it. So it is up to you what you do with that damage. Do you let it ruin your life or do you turn it into something that can benefit others and ultimately yourself as well. I believe you can do this Walter and do you know why? I believe you can do this because I know God will not give us anything in our lives that we cannot handle, WITH HIS HELP. With one some things are just impossible to over come, with HIM all things are possible. So maybe instead of focusing on the damage try to see where it can take you and what it can teach you and in turn how it will bless you and others. He will help you. I know Walter, with every fiber of my being that God loves YOU. You are His son walter, his son!! He cares deeply for you and He knows your needs, your pain, your weakness and your strengths. He is waiting for you to come to Him because He will never take away our freedom to choose Him or reject Him in our lives. He will make weak things strong if we bring them to Him. I bare you that witness in His Son's Holy Name, even Jesus Christ. Take care my friend and let me know how you are doing every now and then. And smile, it really won't hurt :)

Walter I "think" i can begin to understand some of your not being able to grasp or really feel the concept of a loving Heavenly Father. One who would sacrifice His only Son for YOU. If, and I could be wrong about where I feel you may be coming from, but if you have never felt that kind of unconditional love in your life, if you have parents who are less than perfect (and most of us do) it can make it hard to internalize that unconditional love from Heavenly Father. I've been there. I grew up in a very abusive home filled with alcoholism and abuse that I know the only way I made it through was thanks to my Father in Heaven and His Spirit that kept me safe. It took me a long time to "allow" myself to really feel His love for me. I "got" the gospel when I heard it, I understood it intellectually, I believed it wholeheartedly and yet there was still a part of me that was distant, afraid and wanted nothing more than to give up on life and everything in it. You are right suicide can be taken as a way of saying, "I quite", "there is too much pain, I can't deal, I need out", however you say it we reach a limit for whatever reason. Mine were in that I have chronic major depression and it took years to get just the medication piece straightened out so that I had some stable ground to stand on to begin building a testimony of the "finer" aspects of the gospel. Now that I have that ground under me I can fly.....and yet I still have my days where I am depressed. I have never, however, looked back and wondered how my Father in Heaven could have loved me as He claims and allowed all to happen in my life that He did. We are given the gift of free agency and sometimes others use of that agency causes us to suffer, that is where His Love can heal us. I used to pray for revenge and for retaliation and I was angry because only God is suppose to have vengance - why not me I was the one who was injured? Then I had a very wise stake president who suggested I pray for those who hurt me , as the Savior taught. At first I was pretty upset about that idea all together. And then I tried it, reluctantly but I did it. And it was grudgingly as well, I only did it to follow counsel I was given, that kind of thing. Heavenly Father knows the difference and when I finally got serious about wanting to be able to pray about it the way I was asked to things began to change drastically. It opened up an entire area in my heart and soul that had been filled with that anger you speak of. It was taking up so much space I had no room to feel my Father's love for me or others. I had not the capacity to understand His love. As I worked through some of those issues with my Branch President and with many blessings I was able to come to terms with those times in my life that I had no idea why a loving father would have allowed those things to happen to me. I guess what I'm saying is that the long and the short of it it....I had to get help for the depression I was trying to deal with AND I had to come to terms with the hatred and anger in my own heart that was blocking the Spirit and my Father's love for me and for all of His Children. While it is true that suicide is quitting it is also the most hurtful way, I think, that we reject all God has given us, His children. It is throwing back in His face all He has offered us with outstretched arms and love unconditional. IF this is anywhere that you are coming from, and again I could be very wrong (and if I am I apologize for being long winded for no reason) I would hope and pray that you would look into your own heart and see what is in there. See if there is not room for even a tiny bit of desire to know, really know, Father's love for you. If there are other issues that need to be deal with get some help in dealing with them. Seek counseling, from either a professional or your Bishop (not sure if you are a member or not) or other persons who can help you find that love that appears to be so elusive to you right now. I will pray that as you allow yourself to let go of some of that anger, that you will find more capacity for love in your heart and in your life. It is truly sad when someone young feels so much pain and anger that the only options left seem to die. Take care and I pray things will look up for you soon.

I hear the part about it being figuratively speaking of the serpent and I also wonder though since Satan has no body of flesh did he not use that of a snake to approach Eve? They tended the garden and cared for the animals there, she would not have expected anything I would think. Again that is just my impression since it does not clearly state anywhere that I have read which it was. What I am clear on is that she understood her choices and made what was the best choice for all of mankind :)

I'm not going to comment on a whole lot here because I believe the only person who knows our hearts is the Saviour and He will be our judge. I'm comfortable with that and and more than comfortable leaving it to him. I would, however, just like to add that if you have not been suicidal you cannot know the place that can and does lead some very well intended and good people. I know people who have taken their own lives and regardless of "why" I still know that the Lord will be their judge and not any one of us. I've also been there myself and attempted it a number of times. With something this complex we cannot possibly know all the subtleties that go on in the human mind and heart. I have a hard time with blanket statments that do not take into account all of those nuances that as humans we are so prone to. Guess that's all I wanted to say. Suicide, murder, only God knows and even then only the Lord Himself will judge us and no one else.

you guys are so generous :) Makes it almost ok to be mistaken. Thanks for the friendly information.:)

I stand corrected, that was the difference...everlasting life and eternal life. I will try to get my facts straight next time.

I have not read all of the replies but my first response would be are we not all Heavenly Father's children. The christian, the muslam, the jew and even the athiest? Just because someone is not a member of His Church does not mean He does not care about them and love them any less than He does any one else. And who knows, maybe the ones you help get out or never get caught will take a look at your life a little deeper and find out more about Heavenly Father any ways. It could be a very good missionary opportunity at best and at least you could save some precous soul the horror it sounds like you endured. We are given our experiences in this life to overcome them and to use that experience to help others, not just members but all of God's children. If you need further guidance on making that decision take it to Heavenly Father and ask Him.

It is true the Savior did atone for our sins, all of them. While that means we can receive forgiveness, if He chooses, it does not guarantee where we will end up in the eternities. Someone once explained it this way to me. The Resurrection and Eternal Life are free gifts and will be given to all.....where we spend eternity is something we need to have a hand in earning.

Hi I have to tell you that I would never take a post like yours as a joke because I have been there. It's not an easy road to walk and it can be lonely and discouraging. I would have to echo a lot of what has been said already. Talk to people you trust, who know you and your worth, your true worth. KEEP TALKING until someone understands you or you feel heard. YOU ARE NOT ALONE!! Heavenly Father may be answering your prayers, actually I KNOW HE IS, it's just that at times when we do not get the answer we are yearning for we miss His answer. He will give you strength to deal with this adversity, He will make weak things strong IF YOU TURN TO HIM. He will never give you more to handle than what you AND HE can handle TOGETHER. I spent years dealing with chronic major depression. I was in and out of the hospital trying to get medications adjusted, trying to stay alive and trying to raise two kids. It's hard, and in the present I am thankful for those trials, for those hard times. I still struggle at times with the depression but I am much more able to handle it. I do the same things most people here are telling you to do. They work, give them a try. We can either let our trials make us or break us. Try to use this as a stepping stone to something much bigger and better...not sure what that is? Ask Heavenly Father....He WILL guide you. And please, come back and let us know how you are doing. I'm sure I speak for many, if not all of us, when I say come back and find a place where you can be who you really are, let us know how you are doing. Since I don't know your name I will just keep you in my prayers, anyways, as I'm sure Heavenly Father knows you very well. He knows your pain, He knows your weakness, He knows your strength and He knows your name. Again, Talk, keep talking and then pray and keep praying and then listen and follow through with what you know to be true. One last thing because I know this is long already....Yes what others say hurts, life is not fair sometimes. Even the Saviour will not interfere with others freedom to choose, but He will assist those who choose to walk in His paths. Even He, the Lord Himself, asked Father to remove the suffering He was going through in the garden, but as an example He submitted to our Father's will and THEN He had angels minister to Him to strengthen Him to accomplish what He then knew He must do. Follow His example in all things and all will be well.....you can have peace in the midst or turmoil :) Take care my FRIEND!!