Jenda

Hey, really good question. Who's into taking odds? Who thinks Trident would have been one of those brave souls who rushed in to save anybody?

Ummm, Aren't lawyers the largest and most powerful part of the legals system? Yes they are! You can't be a "judge" without belonging to the "bar". There would be no need for so called "lawyers" if we lived in a world where everything was voluntary. While that may be mostly true, it is not entirely true. Some judges are elected, and anybody can be nominated. I have a friend who is a judge, and he is definitely not a lawyer.

Mosiah gives us different admonition. His counsel is to put off the Adam (naturall man) in order to make ourselves acceptable to Christ, to receive the Holy Spirit. Mosiah 1:118-120 RLDS (3:18-19 LDS) 118 But men drink damnation to their own souls, except they humble themselves, and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent: 119 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been, from the fall of Adam, and will be, for ever and ever; 120 But if he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man, and becometh a saint, through the atonement of Christ, the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. I find that I experience the Holy Spirit most through two separate disciplines. First is when I am in service to others. The second is when I am trying hardest to follow His commandments (all of them)(part of which is being in service to others. )

I have to say that I am not even mormon, and I am insulted by Shawn. Why? Because much of his phraseology is geared to demeaning other people (especially people who don't agree with him.) Take this phrase for instance (off his website): Mary is a member of the LDS Church but has accepted Jesus as her personal Savior and is the greatest Born-Again Mormon I know. This phrase specifically points out how Shawn cannot believe that anyone who is not a born-again mormon could possible have accepted Jesus as their personal savior. (The key word in your phrase, Shawn, is but. Without the word but, your statement would have been perfectly acceptable.) Shawn, believe it or not, it is entirely possible to present your side of a discussion without demeaning anyone else in the process. But it takes learnin'. And compassion. One of the rules of this board is that we don't allow postings of anti sites, so I am going to delete the links you have provided for us. You can stay and present your discussion, but please delete the link from your signature. Thanks. Jenda.

1 pair of gloves, 1 mask, 1 gown, 1 pair of goggles, 1 50ml bottle of antiseptic, and 1 AR mask. I have all that in the glove box of my car. What a dream world I live in. So in other words you are unprepared and think of yourself as heroic because you take uneccesary risks when they are very easy to overcome? You must be kidding. You are just pulling the wool over your eyes if you think that is adequate coverage. Blood doesn't soak through gowns? A mask is good for only 20 minutes tops, then you might as well not have one on. Gloves are known not to be complete barriers.How about double-gloves, a moisture resistant gown, and as many masks as necessary to keep the germs in (or out). But, you go on kidding yourself, Trident. Yeah, you are taking adequate precautions.

Let's see which is the more noble choice:1) Treat a patient without proper BSI, contract something like HIV and never be allowed to treat anyone ever again. All to help one person. 2) Obey the standards that have been pre-set by people much more knowledgable than myself. Do not treat one person, but continue to treat patients every day for the rest of my career. Help 1 person, or help thousands. You choose which is the greater cause. Then you do not belong in medicine. You are a danger to yourself and those around you. It has nothing to do with caring. It is about making smart decisions, which you have proven that you have no intention on making.I wonder what God would say to me if I were to try and justify when I went against what I knew was right, because my heart was compelled, and contracted something that I gave to my son. No, I know that I have excellent skills in the field of emergency medicine and am not ready to compromise the health and safety of my future patients because of sheer stupidity.It is obvious that the patient is not your primary concern, what you think is right is your primary concern. You seem to be high on yourself because of your high and mighty morals. You fail to realize that because of an impulse decision and following your heart you potentially put the health of future would-be patients at risk. I have treated thousands of people in my career. How many would have died if I was put behind a desk because I had a communicable disease that prevented me from going into the field. That is perhaps the most selfish thing a medical provider can do. You do not belong in medicine because you do not value your own safety, nor the safety of your co-workers. You are a loose canon that I hope I never have to work with. I dare you to spout off this type of talk to your attending physician. Let's see how long it takes him/her to remove you from patient care. Your thinking makes you a safety hazard. Wow! Somebody is jumping to a lot of conclusions. I never said I didn't follow protocol, especially in a hospital situation. I did say that I would evaluate the risks going into each situation.You know, Trident, you live and work in an ideal world. The world where everything must be as you need it to be every minute of the day. Most of the rest of us, unfortunately, live in the real world. The world where you run out of your protective barriers because our supplies aren't endless, and we are still faced with needing, or wanting, to do our jobs. And the ambulance is still 20 minutes away, and someone has to do CPR. Yeah, must be nice to live in the ideal world. Most (not all) communicable diseases are treatable (or preventable). Just in case you forgot. So, go get your immunizations, get your kid immunized, and stop acting like the world will end when you die or get sick.

Peace, I don't think that anyone here denies that one must be born again (thanks for the scriptures! :) ), what is being objected to is that some people who think that in order to be born again one must give up the LDS faith, or their 'born-againness" is not true. I find that people who think like that are extremely narrow-minded.

I am closing this topic. If you want to restart it on a more positive note, be my guest.

And now you are being told otherwise by a 15+ year medic. Nurses deal with police officers a fraction of the amount they deal with medics and EMT's, whose say is more important? Do you only believe what you want to believe? So you are coming down on people for not violating a code of ethics and a protocol that exists in every emergency department in the world, treating somebody without gloves? There are good reasons why there are protocol like that in place. Do you know anything about communicable diseases? Unless there is a femoral arterial bleeding, you can afford to wait and not risk taking some disease home to your family, friends, and co-workers. Besides without ALS assistance your efforts will make little, if any difference anyways and I think you know that. I will never fault somebody for not putting the people around them in uneccesary risk. If a nurse is willing to break one of the most important protocols, what else will they violate? This reflects your professionalism.You are unaware of the risks and therefore will do things that seem heroic to the unknowledgable. To me, it's unwarrented and stupid. Start using your head, not your heart. Try doing your job without them. In other words they were not willing to take hepatitis, HIV, herpes, lyme disease, etc home to their families. The health of the provider ALWAYS comes first, no exceptions. Well, Trident, I guess your post sums up the difference between you and me. John 15:12,13 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. See, I value all life equally. You think you are better than others, for some reason. I know the risks when I go into a situation, but when my presence could save a life, I will choose to save it and risk the risks. Maybe that is what makes the difference between nurses and EMTs. I choose to care. I will continue to think with my heart, thank you.

Leaving aside the question of whether a headache would show up on some kind of brain scan (and I'm a mechanic, not a doctor, so pardon my ignorance), another person would only know you had a headache based on information from you -- your testimony of it, as it were. Is that testimony always truthful? Do people ever claim to have headaches when they really don't? Does the lies of some totally destroy truth of others?d I like your response, Peace. But, when you try to analogize(?) a religious experience to a physical problem/manifestation, there are always going to be problems that will eventually tear apart that analogy. For example, I worked at a hospital in NYC, on the pediatric floor where we saw the gosh-darn sickest kids. It was heart-breaking taking care of them. They would come in over and over, we would get attached, etc. We occasionally saw this one child. At home, the child would have these symptoms that would require hospitalization and tests, etc., and so the child would be admitted only to have the symptoms disappear on admission. After several of these admissions, the staff started thinking that something untoward was happening at home, causing the child to be admitted, and in the end it was determined that the child's mother had Munchausen's Syndrome by proxy. A psychiatric/psychological problem that could cause severe harm by the parent (usually mother) to the child (in an attention-seeking bid). How does this relate? Most people that complain of physical symptoms are telling the truth. They go to the doctor to find some type of relief for the problem. But, what happens at the doctor/hospital? They have to give a detailed history to help find the cause of the problem, they have to be put through a battery of tests to make sure it is (or isn't) a life-threatening condition. If we treated our testimonies the same way we treated our illnesses, we would logically determine that what we had was not something given to us by God because we can't prove it. It is something we have to take on faith. If we tried to take our illnesses on faith, we could put ourselves in severe harms way. We could have faith that the headache was just tension, or just a migraine, but it could be an aneurysm, or a brain tumor. (Now that I have written this out, I'm not sure how it relates, but, Oh, well. )

This is their mission statement (as copied directly from their website: This site is a support product for the book, Born-Again Mormon, and our Ministry which falls under the same title. Born-Again Mormon Ministries is dedicated to bringing Latter-day Saints to the Lord Jesus Christ through spiritual rebirth, which is a gift of God given through faith on His Son. We believe that the doctrinal LDS Church is in error but that the physical organization remains beneficial. WE ARE NOT OUT TO DESTROY THE PHYSICAL CHURCH OR ORGANIZATION BUT ARE INSTEAD OUT TO CONFRONT AND DESTROY ERRONEOUS ALL LDS DOCTRINE ORIGINATING FROM MAN. (emphasis not mine (well, color mine, caps not)) I say it is an anti site, and am going to delete the link.

If you can't be alone with the opposite sex w/o temptation or trusting your signifigant other you shouldn't be together. Marriage is based on both love AND trust. If you don't have that than you don't have much of a relationship. Moonshine You go, girl! Exactly what I was thinking. Love and trust.

Do you work in this field? I learned about "brotherhood" from the people I work with and those who have trained me. Other than doctors nobody works closer with nurses than paramedics do. I understand what they do, and don't do. I won't argue about this because I'm not going to try and convince you about the way reality is. If nurses were responsible for decision-making I might think differently. So nurses are so dedicated to patient care that a law has to be passed that forces them to stop at an accident scene. I have never known a medic, fireman, or cop to just keep on driving when they see something happen. A law doesn't need to be passed for us.Risks? I agree there are some, but not even a fraction that exists in a prehospital environment. Want a few examples? *we always work in a non-sterile environment *we are exposed to more body fluids in a more uncontrolled state *we do not know the medical history of anyone we treat (we are the reason why you have the chart you have in the hospital) *paramedics and EMT's develop substantial more injuries in the field, including disabling ones *we have to negotiate an emergency vehicles on a daily basis (more emergency personnel are killed while responding to an incident than all others combined) *depression is significantly higher because we see all the bad stuff, you see what we have cleaned up I'll leave that for now, you can have more any time you like. Everything a nurse is at-risk to, we are too. Except we have additional risks that nurses do not have. Whatever, Trident. I only know what I have been told (by cops), and how I have been treated (by cops).Maybe EMT's truly are special. BTW, when I stopped, it wasn't because of a law, it was because someone needed help, and I could provide it. Oh, yeah, a few others stopped who were (off-duty) EMTs, and they wouldn't touch anyone or anything because they didn't have gloves.

I am a paramedic and do not consider nurses part of the "brotherhood". I respect what they do, but they do an entirely different job. An in-hospital setting has a fraction of the risks. Wrong, Trident. You are so narrow-minded that you can't see the truth when it is plastered right in front of you. We might have different risks, but they are just as real and as numerous as the ones you face. And in many states, nurses are required to stop at accident sites, etc., when other medical personnel are not yet present. And I have on numerous occasions. And whether or not you consider them part of the "brotherhood" isn't important. I know they are.

Not all the "experts" agree that Isaiah was written at two different times. The more recent "experts" are the ones suggesting that it was all one Isaiah.

You are dismissing what every firefighter, police officer, paramedic, and soldier do because they get small paychecks for what they do. You're leaving out nurses. I happen to know that at least policemen consider nurses part of the "brotherhood".

How many are there in 'numerous plagiarisms'? Could you list them? Better yet, because they're so numerous, I'lll just provide you with a link. If you bother to actually skim over the pages that are linked it'll soon dawn on you the magnitude of JS's plagiarism. If you want to know how a "simple farm boy" could possbily write the BoM, it's not too hard to imagine that with Spaulding's basis for a story, JS's plagiarism of the Bible, and repition..he could've wrote it. http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom/intro.shtml Don't forget that huge portions of Isaiah were included under the guise of the Brass Plates. So, the portions that are quoted from Isaiah aside, are you suggesting that God cannot reveal similar concepts to different people on different parts of the planet? Are you saying that once one person thinks of something, that becomes the end-all of anyone else having a similar thought without it being considered a plageurism? I think that is interesting. Does that mean that the only reason you doubted your faith and chose to rely on "logic" is because someone else first doubted it? (Because you are not the first to think that thought, you couldn't have come up with it on your own.) That is the logical conclusion of your thesis, you know. I think people can touch upon similarities. But I'm not talking about similarities. I'm talking about plagiarism. Out and out plagiarism. Please click on the link I provide...skim over the various other links, and then get back to me. Can you honestly say that those aren't examples of plagiarism? Yes, I looked at several of the pages (not all of them), and while there were many similarities, the most impressive were the ones where Jesus gave the same talks in America that he gave in Jerusalem (i.e.-the Sermon on the Mount). Many had the same idea but used different words, and many had similar wording. I don't think that proves anything. IMO, for scripture to be accurate, it can't contradict what has been given previously or in other places; and when one people needs to hear something from God, it is likely that another people needs to hear it, also. We are all human and all have the same weaknesses. We all need to hear 1. that we sin and need to repent, 2. that God loves us, and 3. there is a way to return to God when we do sin.

How many are there in 'numerous plagiarisms'? Could you list them? Better yet, because they're so numerous, I'lll just provide you with a link. If you bother to actually skim over the pages that are linked it'll soon dawn on you the magnitude of JS's plagiarism. If you want to know how a "simple farm boy" could possbily write the BoM, it's not too hard to imagine that with Spaulding's basis for a story, JS's plagiarism of the Bible, and repition..he could've wrote it. http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom/intro.shtml Don't forget that huge portions of Isaiah were included under the guise of the Brass Plates. So, the portions that are quoted from Isaiah aside, are you suggesting that God cannot reveal similar concepts to different people on different parts of the planet? Are you saying that once one person thinks of something, that becomes the end-all of anyone else having a similar thought without it being considered a plageurism? I think that is interesting. Does that mean that the only reason you doubted your faith and chose to rely on "logic" is because someone else first doubted it? (Because you are not the first to think that thought, you couldn't have come up with it on your own.) That is the logical conclusion of your thesis, you know.

Thank goodness you aren't responsible for judging us when it comes time for final judgment. No one but policemen, firefighters and navy seals would get into heaven.But to go back to your example of the guy in the back of your ambulance, if he had really taken on Christ at that time, his life would have been changed. He would have stopped dealing, he would have done everything he could after that to make kids understand the dangers of doing drugs. It is precisely because he didn't take on Christ that he continued to remain on the path he was on. But, it is not up to you to judge. Some people really do change on their deathbeds, or what they perceive as their deathbeds. There is a saying "By their fruits ye shall know them". Anybody can say anything, it is by their actions that you can tell, for the most part, who has made a covenant with God.

It doesn't matter. Moses would go to Hell even if he never killed anyone...at least according to Christian doctrine...because Moses was born before Jesus Christ, he was not able to believe in Christ. And if you don't believe in Christ, you go to Hell. Its the cold, hard facts of the Bible. But I don't believe that Now, see. That is where there is benefit regarding belief in the restored gospel. God restored his church/priesthood many times throughout history, and even if Christ hadn't come at that time, they all had knowledge of him, and were baptized in his name throughout all that time. So, see, there is that benefit. Moses would have been able to avail himself of baptism in Christ's name even before He was born.

Can i received God's grace without works? Yes or no will do. If the answer is no then grace is not about God's goodness, it's all about me. Yes or No won't do, sorry. Christ asks us to make a covenant with him, and then he will save us. Read John 3:16. It's right there in black and white. His grace is for those who believe. IF you believe, you will prove it with your works. Works is not what saves us, it is only the proof that you believe and have made a covenant with Christ.

It is something that has been going around the e-mail circuit for a few years. I don't know who wrote it, but I have gotten it periodically from all my RLDS friends. I kind of thought that maybe it was written by someone from the RLDS church. Isn't it funny how our biases tell a lot about who we are?

I know that, but you are linking grace to faith and faith to works. I am telling you what you are telling me. I am telling you what the Bible says. I didn't even bring in the BoM or the D&C. Just the Bible. It is the NT authors that link faith and works, and Christ, himself, linked grace and faith.

I do believe the filters were changed to allow Hell to be used as long as it was used appropriately, and, yes, that would be in a discussion of Heaven/Hell.

Peter was only in the "first presidency" of the early church. The church was led by James, the brother of Jesus. Of course, many people received revelation in the early church, Paul did, as did others. Interesting. Where do you get the idea that James led the church while Peter was still alive? If it was Peter who held the keys, which were given to him by our Lord, why would James be the Prophet for the church? It is the understanding throughout Christendom that James was the leader of the church, but I will look up some references. Please tell me, in return, where the keys of the kingdom were bestowed only on Peter. If I remember my church history correctly, it was Peter, James and John who restored the priesthood, so they all must have had them. Here are some links. http://www.insmkt.com/jbj.htm http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/033...product-details http://www.physics.wustl.edu/~alford/james.html http://www.1way2god.net/printfriend/bio_ja...herofjesus.html http://www.thenazareneway.com/james_the_br...er_of_jesus.htm The first three are reviews of books written on the subject. There are other references, but you can search 'James brother Jesus' and find them yourself.