Setheus

My thoughts above. B)

I agree. You must render him "harmless". And to do so would not include asking him to repent. That tactic would only tick him off even more. In that situation you are in NO position to suggest that he is somehow wrong.The way I was trained and I think it applys here is to make yourself as "human" as possible to him and make him see you as more than a hostage...then as soon as the opp shows itself you destroy that SOB. Now, if you want to sit there and whine and preach forgiveness to an advisary who is trying to kill you....well you're braver than me. Stupid, but brave. But I believe we have gotten off course here. We are talking spiritually and this has turned litteral. In the end, my children come first. In the end, my wifes children come first. And in the end, my wife and I will work together as one to make sure that they come first.j I'm done with this topic. Reply if you must. I will not. Ciao!

If you put as much effort into doing what ever it would take to "save" your children from this big bad gunman you've invented as you do in trying to win me over to the dark side we might be able to get along. LOL

or make any sence

It looks to me you are desprate to find a way out of this conversation. You lack the courage of your conviction. The ONLY time that Heavenly Father puts "limits" to when he will help us is when WE make discions that count as sin. And even then if we but repent He is right back there again willing to do whatever is needed for our good. I'm sorry and saddened that you have a limit to what you are willing to do for your children (if you have any). PS I will allow you to exit this conversation gracefully since that is so clearly what you want. .... I guess I win by defualt?

Ok Ray, since you like to play the "what if " game here we go....What IF the mysterious Gunman comes back and says, Who is gonna die? YOU or your CHILD? Pick on or you BOTH DIE! Who would you pick? Who would you choose? Yourself and your child lives or your child and you live? When you realize that you would do whatever the cost to save your child...then you will begin to understand why God giving His Son was the greatest gift of all! In essence God had to do what you proposed in your fist "gunman" situation.....He had to choose between His Son and the rest of His children. Sin pointed a gun and said, "Who will it be? All of your children or Jesus Christ? And the only reason God allowed Christ to pay for the rest of us was because Christ AGREED to pay! God would not have chosen for Him and would not have forced Him.

You're not even talking about the primal instinct of parenthood here. What you are talking about is a social issue. Of course we should not elevate our children above or even equal to the status of our spouce....but when push comes to shove both parents should be in agreance that their purpose and responsibility is to the child that they have been intrusted with my God. So the next time you want to compair apples, don't bring a bannanna.

For this is the work and the glory of God. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man..... Wouldn't it be HALARIOUS if God took you're side on this Ray, and "stopped building His life around YOU, his child. The look on your face would be PRICELESS!!

This makes me think of this point. Heavenly Father did not sacrifice is "only begotten wife". He gave His Only Begotten SON. Which to my understanding was the GREATEST gift the God of the Universe could give.Now, doesn't that make you (if nothing more than assume) that our children are the greatest aspect of our existance?

I agree. Traci, if this is how you feel then go look up the pics from the Civil War, Viet Nam, Bay of Pigs, or any of the numerous missions that take place (even in peace time) in which members of the armed services died for their country. Peace time? Yes, there are US soldiers, sailors and marines in combat situations even when we are not at war. None of those dead in the pics you subbmitted died not wanting to be there. All of them of their own free will went and enlisted or worked hard for a commission. They all wanted to fight for our country and die if need be. All of us in the military understand that and embrace it. Even though my motto is Don't die for my country, make the other man die for his, I still belive in Greater love hath no man than this that he lay down his life for his friends. I gotta say it..... YOU TREE HUGGIN HIPPIE!!! ...oh yes, I went there.

"-bolonga. Thats contrary to the teachings of the apostle paul. The need for procreation has deminished, we are limited to one wife- and as paul tought marrige is simply for those who can not live pure lives without one. And he says if you can resist sexual immorality without a wife- then dont marry. This life is about God- not your children or your spouces." OH YES, I remember that passage in the Bible! Its read "Marriage is for you horne dogs that can't control yourselfs. If you can't hack it, get married." But I am also reminded of the Commandment given to us in the Garden of Eden, "Multiply and replinish the earth" and yet ANOTHER Commandment about not committing Adultry and Fornication. Hmmm? How can you MULTIPLY AND REPLINISH AND YET NOT HAVE SEX UNLESS YOU"RE MARRIED AND YET MARRIAGE IS BAD CAUSE IT MEANS YOU"RE JUST HORNY? You're like that little kid that always liked to change the rules in the middle of the game to bennifit his looser butt. "Out of curiousity curvett. If a gunman made you decide which of your children would die, what would you do? And please dont follow my own mothers example. Personaly i would chose whichever i liked the least to die ;-)" In this situation if I were tied up and helpless, I'd remain silent and make THE GUNMAN choose who he killed first. If he actually had the *** to do it then cudos to him and I'll see my child or children in the Celesial kingdom. IF on the other hand I was not bound and we were all just standing around at gun point I would unleash a rage on that man that would resist being shot and I would grab him by his skull and bite off chunks of his face and make him watch me eat him alive. What can I say? I"m a very passionate and protective parrent. And for you out there thinking to yourself that I am just playing or just full of it, I have actually bitten a man in the cheek and chewed on his flesh in my mouth while he watched. And that was just in a fight for MY life. I was not nearly as stirred up as I would be if my child's life were on the line. Good times in the Middle East. I won't go into more detail about that.

Here is MY responce to that. If my wife chose me over our child (which she wouldnt) after my wife saved me from drowning, I'd push her away and as fast as I could I'd jump right back in and save the child. Our children are our DUTY AND RESPONSABILITY FROM GOD. Look at nature. The only animals in nature that wont die defending their young are the ones that mass produce. So Ray, when you're wife lays 10,000 eggs and you burry them in the sand on the beach, well then I guess your retarded theory will have value. In battle I have lived when

LOL Well the song is about getting everything you want and like it says, With your crown came nothing. May not be a hymnal but still has a good message.

Mabey you'd get a little if you weren't on the internet bad mouthing your husband. You've told the whole world your problems and concerns...now try telling your husband. Just my thought.

I believe our purpose is just what the gospel teaches. We are to strive to become like our Father in Heaven. We are to learn to love as He does, to do what He would have us to do. Our purpose is to strive to reach the potential that our maker has in mind for us. The first and greatest commandment. Love the Lord thy God. and the second is like unto it. Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. If you can do this then you are well on your way to obeying another commandment... "Be ye perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect" These things are our "purpose"

"I disagree with the idea that God needs us. I know He loves us, but why would He need us? That would basically be the same as saying that I need my children, but I do not need them. I simply love them. Or do you believe that God needs someone telling Him how wonderful He is?" ---Ray Ray, do you like the band Metalica? If you do or don't, a lyric from one of their songs says "...with your crown came nothing." God needs us because He created us. What is a creator without his creations? "This is the work and the GLORY of God, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" Does this ring a bell? WE are God's glory! We are the work of an eternal and perfect God. We are His motivation. We are His passion. How can you say He doesnt need us?

Its funny you compare the topic to a pride of lions. After all in a pride there is a chain of command. And the lower lions must humble themselfs to the head lion, the oldest male. But even the great male lion can't be full of pride because without his pride he goes hungry and can not continue the species. So, even though God is the head of all and creator of all things, what use would it be to be an almighty being if you had nothing to show for it? Thus, God needs us and we need God. This is why pride is evil. Because EVERYONE has something or someone that they NEED.

...and next to Geroge W. you're just a sad goober whith no real impact on the world.

because its the eternal "good vs evil". Rep. = good Dem.= evil

You're kidding right? You must only watch Fox. A good frind of mine is an electrician (journeyman) and his company has a contract which pays him $20,000 a month to do electrical work to new and rebuilt schools, offices, etc. I won't go into all the other "positive" things we are doing over there...except that the Army Corp of Eng. builds roads, and bridges and schools ....

You guys are a bunch of novices...the only REAL way to end terrorist is to kill all of them. I prepose we flood the earth. You see, we'll make it rain for 40 days and 40 nights. All the non-terrorist will build an ark. You may bring only 2 pets, or 7 if they are house broken. Its fool proof!

and you are NEVER wrong...except that one time.

then explain this to me. "Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect". If we are to BE LIKE OUR FATHER then we must be pridful since you claim he is full of pride. Our Father in Heaven and His Son teach that it is wrong to be full of pride. Yes, there are times in the scriptures where God has become jealous and angry because of our sin and idolitry...but God is not and never has been puffed up and "into Himself". God does not stand in front of his mirror and check himself out. I like to think of it like this. ... Ever notice that if you're around a miniture pincher how they bark and yap and try to make you think that they are going to rip you apart? And then you meet up with an Irish Wolfhound or Mastiff and they are usually very calm and quiet dogs. What is my point? The large dogs know they can rip you apart and thus feel no need to bark and carry on. That little dog feels he needs to impress you. We are like that little dog and so it is silly for us to be pridfull. God is awsome and He knows it and He knows we know it and thus doesnt need to be full of pride. Remember His own words. "I am that I am." He never said "I am so awsome and full of glory I am".

...and a final thought. If we MUST learn humility to be LIKE Christ, and Christ is LIKE the Father, then how does that make sence that God is an Ego Maniac? "Go be humble so you can become an arrogant ######?" or Go train for the olympics so that you may be a couch potato? What you say doesn't even make sence.

Ok USNationalist, in that case I want you to think back over the past week and really try to list every blessing you have recieved from God. I want you to count everything that you would not have had save the Lord provided it or the means to get what ever "it " was. Now after you have really thought long and hard and made an accurate and fair list I want you to realize that you had NO IDEA you had recieved that from God and thus did not (by your def. "give him glory") and then you may take your foot out of your mouth and start walking again.