mikbone
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Posts posted by mikbone
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Why have we been trying to compare the firstborn tittle of Jehovah to the birthright that was given to the patriarchs in the Old testament.
I think a much better comparison is comparing the spirit birth of Jehovah to the Edenic birth of Adam.
Adam was firstborn in the garden. We do not have a counting of years or decades or centuries of time that Adam spent in the Garden with God. We have been taught that Adam was born in the garden as a baby. It is obvious that he had to be reared and taught. Adam had to learn how to take care of himself and have an education on survival in the world. I think that God taught Adam how to garden, hunt, obtain metalic ore and refine it and produce tools. Adam must have learned about medicine and Science. Adam was intelligent. He was not kicked out of the Garden unprepared. He spent time one on one with God for a prolonged period of time and did not lose those memories when his mortal probation started. He had a unique insight on life that no other mortal child of God ever had during their probaiton.
I think that Jehovah was like Adam. Jehovah was the firstborn in the spirt, as has been cited over and over by ancient and modern revelation.
The difference between Jehovah and every other spirit child in the pre-existence was VAST. Jehovah was already like unto God. No one else (not even Lucifer) was like unto God during the pre-existence. Jehovah was special. Of this there is no doubt. Abraham 3:24
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Math Rocks.
All truth / science supports God.
How could a being who uses the laws of nature at his desire to create worlds and mankind not love math?
What kinda math are you studying that causes you to lose faith btw???
I remember sitting in a Biochem class and learning about DNA replication and translation and having a powerful spiritual confirmation that God designed the system. There is no way in hell that that system just "happened".
Some people go outside at night to look into the expanse and see the randomness of empty space and then think that supports Atheism. Thats nuts.
ALMA 30:44
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ONLINE - Brad Paisley
I work down at the Pizza Pit
And I drive an old Hyundai
I still live with my mom and dad
I'm 5 foot 3 and overweight
I'm a scifi fanatic
A mild asthmatic
And I've never been to second base
But there's whole ‘nother me
That you need to see
Go checkout MySpace
'Cause online I'm out in Hollywood
I'm 6 foot 5 and I look damn good
I drive a Maserati
I'm a black-belt in karate
And I love a good glass of wine
It turns girls on that I’m mysterious
I tell them I don't want nothing serious
'Cause even on a slow day
I could have a three way
Chat with two women at one time
I’m so much cooler online
So much cooler online
When I get home I kiss my mom
And she fixes me a snack
And I head down to my basement bedroom
And fire up my mac
In real life the only time I’ve ever even been to L.A
Is when I got the chance with the marching band
To play tuba in the Rose Parade
Online I live in Malibu
I pose for Calvin Klein, I've been in GQ
I'm single and I'm rich
And I've got a set of six pack abs that would blow your mind
It turns girls on that I’m mysterious
I tell them I don't want nothing serious
'Cause even on a slow day
I could have a three way
Chat with two women at one time
I’m so much cooler online
Yeah, I'm cooler online
When you got my kind of stats
It’s hard to get a date
Let alone a real girlfriend
But I grow another foot and I lose a bunch of weight
Every time I login
Online
I’m out in Hollywood
I’m 6 foot 5 and I look damn good
Even on a slow day
I could have a three way
Chat with two women at one time
I’m so much cooler online
Yeah, I’m cooler online
I’m so much cooler online
Yeah, I’m cooler online
Yeah, I’m cooler online
Yeah, I’ll see ya online
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World of Warcraft
Lvl 80 Undead Unholy Death Knight
Doomhammer Server
Bring it on!
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We have seen many examples in scripture where sons do not have to be the oldest to have the right of the Firstborn in their families.
This is a topic I have not studied or prayed about in depth so I will just read and take it in.
Granted, many firstborns did not receive the birthright or double portion of his father's possessions. Because position of birth itself does not dictate priesthood aptitude. Deuteronomy 21:17
Consider the following firstborns:
Adam's firstborn son was of so little consequence that his name was not even recorded in scripture. What little we know about him is that he became a wicked man before Cain and Abel were born. Moses 5:2,13,17
Seth received the birthright and was born to Adam in his one hundred and thirtieth year. Genesis 5:3
Of the first eleven patriarchs, the earliest birth of a son that was to become a member of the patriarchal chain was born at his father's sixty-fifth year of life. The average age was at 150 years. Obviously many of these patriarchs were not their father's firstborn. Genesis 5
Abraham's firstborn son was Ishamel Genesis 16: 11-12
But the birthright went to Isaac. Genesis 17:19, 25:5
Esau, Isaac's firstborn sold his birthright to Jacob for a pot of lentils. Genesis 25: 33-34
Jacob's birthright went to Joseph his eleventh born son. Genesis 37:3
Obviously, order of birth does not dictate power in the priesthood or spiritual blessings. The rights of priesthood are based upon righteousness. D&C 121:36
This pattern does not necessairly prove that Jehovah was not the firstborn in the spirit...
D&C 93:21-23 is a very intersting scripture.
Jesus Christ speaking to Joseph Smith states that in the beginning, He was with the Father, and during that time, He was the firstborn. Later on He says that we were also there in the beginnnig with Father, but that we were spirits.
It makes sense to me that Jehovah was the Oldest of all the spirits in the pre-existence. He had progressed so much further than anyone else. Perhaps because he spent extra time with Elohim one on one. Jehovah could have been around a LONG time before the next spiritual child was born...
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I submit that your #1 is not accurate. In all cases in scripture when there was a dispute with siblings within a family for the birth right of the “first born” the birth right was given to the younger. The more accurate definition of first born would be most noble born. Think of obtaining a seat on a commercial aircraft. If you reserved a first class seat you would not expect that your seat was among the oldest or first installed in the aircraft but the better or best section of the aircraft.
The first born of the Egyptians during the exodus of Moses was not the oldest but the best and brightest of Egypt. The slaying of the first born meant the end of that government class’s rule in Egypt.
The Traveler
Did you see the first post on this thread with the...
THE FATHER AND THE SON:
A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve
June 30, 1916
Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors.
"the firstborn from the dead" this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written "the first fruits of them that slept" (I Corinthians 15:20, see also verse 23); and "the first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5; compare Acts 26:23).
Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn
If you did read these parts... how do you come to your conclusion, that he is not the oldest???
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Get an iphone. :)
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Good question.
Letter of the Law - Think of an attorney (my wife graduated from J Ruben Clark - dosent practice though :)). If the law says do not kill. Then you cant kill. If you shoot someone and they dont die you didnt break that law... You might be guilty of attempted murder but certainly not murder.
Spirit of the Law - if you think "I wish he were dead." Or started to make plans to kill someone but they died of natural causes before you were able to complete your nefarious deed. Then you are breaking the spirit of the law.
Bill Clinton is an excellent example of practicing the letter of the law. "I did not have sex with that woman!"
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The veil conceals our pre-existence memories. Earth Life memories are yours to keep, without them we cannot be judged.
To have your pre-existence memories restored you must pass thru the veil alluded to in the Temple Ceremony.
I was taught by my wedding officiator that the sealing ordinance is like a beacon. So if you are sealed to your Father, when you pass you will be able to feel his presence, and find him.
Condolences,
Mikbone
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I would pull the trigger. Without remorse.
Was the God of the Old Testament Good? Do you realize that he commanded his chosen people to kill their enemies? There are many examples. Deuteronomy 3:1-6 "And we utterly destroyed them, ... the men, women, and children, of every city".
Why don't you explain to us why God would want the Israelites to utterly destroy a nation?
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1) Jesus is God
2) We pray to the Father in the name of the Son
3) Please give the scripture reference to which you are refering to concerning Thomas
4) Yes and No
A better question would be what is the difference between the Father and the Son and what are their roles?
The Father is GOD. HIS direct interaction with mankind during our Earth life has been very limited. Essentially HE introduces and sustains the Son. Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The God of the Old Testament is Jehovah (pre-mortal Jesus Christ), Moses spoke to Jehovah in the burning bush. Jehovah is the great I AM. Jehovah created the Earth physically.
Because of sin we are unable to interect directly with GOD. That is why Jehovah - Jesus Christ is so important. He is the mediator between us and GOD. When we finally overcome sin are are resurrected we will be able to interact directly with GOD.
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If you could go back in time and meet Aldoph Hitler and carry a gun, would you pull the trigger?
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No, it was not "just a matter of how you interpreted it." The exact words were, "We could not feel joy or pain." Nothing there about "fulness of joy"; the teaching was that, premortally, we were incapable of feeling joy.
Now who's stretching the plain meaning of words? This was no teaching about "the joy that we will feel in heaven after we are resurrected". The plain teachings we were told to teach brand new investigators just learning the gospel for the first time ever were that we needed to be born into mortality because we were unable to feel joy premortally. You can't hand-wave this one away.
Job 38:7
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Kinda wanted to flesh out the defination for this word. Seems like there are lots of different meanings for the term on the forums.
Here's what I got so far.
1) Born first. The eldest.
2) The child designated to recieve the birthright
3) Member of the Church of the Firstborn
It gets complicated when talking about Jesus Christ because he has so many names
Firstborn in the spirit, Firstborn from the dead, Only begotten, Only begotten in the flesh, Alpha & Omega, I AM, etc.
I think one of the best concrete statements about this term is found in:
THE FATHER AND THE SON:
A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve
June 30, 1916
Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors. Following are affirmative scriptures bearing upon this great truth. Paul, writing to the Colossians, says of Jesus Christ: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell" (Colossians 1:15-19). From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was "the firstborn of every creature" and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as "the firstborn from the dead" this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written "the first fruits of them that slept" (I Corinthians 15:20, see also verse 23); and "the first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5; compare Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father, and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: "And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6; read the preceding verses). That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:28, 29). John the Revelator was commanded to write to the head of the Laodicean church, as the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14). In the course of a revelation given through Joseph Smith in May, 1833, the Lord Jesus Christ said as before cited: "And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the firstborn" (Doc. & Cov. 93:21). A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth" (verse 23).
There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of human kind. That He is by spiritual birth Brother to the rest of us is indicated in Hebrews: "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Hebrews 2:17). Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.
Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.
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I've given the question some more thought and wanted to give a better concrete answer than my previous response.
What made Jesus uniquely qualified to do what he did?
1) Jehovah understood the Fathers plan of salvation better than any of the other spirit children. This is best understood by studying the pre-existence. The Bible deals with the pre-existence in only a cursory manner. Luckily we saints have been blessed with further knowledge and have an excellent history of the pre-existence. I recommend studying The Pearl of Great Price in detail (especially Abr 3 & Moses 1,4,6), Alma 43-44 is and excellent symbolic description of the war in heaven (I just learned this btw, thanks to Justice who also made a post in this thread), and of course the Temple ceremony.
2) Christ was able to live a perfect example and a sin-free life. He made NO mistakes. He had a character, will, and knowledge that allowed him to make perfect decisions and execute those decisions. Have you ever tried to have a "perfect day" give it a shot. It's difficult. He was able to part the veil at an early age and had a clear vision of our pre-earth life and eternal perspective that other mortals don't seem able to understand. He was a spiritual giant.
3) He was able to complete the Atonement. You can study the atonement all day long. It is the central theme of Christianity. Its all over the scriptures. But some of the best comments that I have experienced are within latter-day confrence talks. Take for example Elder Jeffery R. Holland's talk from today's confrence. There seem to be at least 2-3 atonement talks during each confrence. They are powerful. Good testimony meetings are also helpful. But the bottom line to understanding the atonement is - LOVE. He loves us and wants us to be able to over-come the effects of sin and return to live and progress with him and the Father. In the end, that is why he chose to partake of the bitter cup.
4) He had power over death. He allowed himself to die. And He was able to resurrect himself.
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There are no coincidences.
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That is the best question ever.
And it is a joy to study, ponder, and pray about.
I wrote a book about it, but in the end it can all be summed up in one word.
Love.
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My favorite part so far...
Elder Anderson quoting Elder Packer - paraphrasing "I am a nobody, then he turned and looked at me, and said, And Brother Anderson you are a nobody. And don't you ever forget it. And if you do, you will be reminded in an instant. And it won't be pleasant."
This gives me comfort. :)
Brother Holland on the Atonement. I could listen to talks on the atonement all day long.
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Yes, absolutely.
Woot!
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Ok, So the way that I think that it could at least make some logical sense... We Progressed through eternity as intelligences from various levels of Darkness to Light until a point of where our intelligences were at the level ready to be organized into spiritual bodies. There are intelligences behind us that are also progressing, so when we are in divine position to organize intelligences for the next plan of Salvation. These Lower Intelligences (Below us) are still apart of the Plan of Salvation as the Light of Christ, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost.
Intelligence -> Spirit -> Mortal body -> Immortal body - This we know
Defining Intelligence is difficult to do though. There has just been so little revealed about them. The only scripture that seems to allude to them is Abraham 3:18-26. But I think that the term intelligence used in this scripture actually is refering to the the level of righteousness of the spirit not the actual intelligence that we have come to think of as the pool of material that God uses to organize spirits.
I would never use the word darkness to describe an intelligence. Although obviously there are different levels of brilliance.
The Light of Christ is a whole different thing though.
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I was with you right up until this last statement. I do not believe that the Holy Ghost delivered an already fertilised embryo. Jesus was divine on his father's side but mortal on his mother's side. He had to be or he would not have beenable to suffer pain and death. He needed a mortal body. What the Holy Ghost delivered was one half, Mary's own body provided the other half.
Quite apart from the Atonement though, Jehovah was a spirit being not an immortal being so he would have needed a mortal body at some point in order to progres himself anyway.
So can we agree that the Holy ghost at least delivered Elohim's haploid DNA to Mary's womb? If so the symbolism still works.
Jehovah's tabernacle in the pre-existence is a very interesting point. Don't know that I want to go there though...
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Has your friend ever given his wife a reason to think that she will never live up to his expectations.
Pornography, flirting with other women, talking about other women, ignoring her to spend more time with his friends or at work?
If I was Lucifer and I wanted to destroy families. This is the way that I would do it. It is subtle, but painful, and infects everyone in the whole family
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This is a great thread. Lots of good advice and I've never seen so many thanks.
From the standpoint of a doc I would have to ask a few more questions to know where things really stand.
How much weight has she gained. It matters. Does she have any illnesses. Hypothyroidism and lots of other diseases can cause massive weight gain. Is she depressed? Is she taking any medications or supplements? Does she want to lose weight? Would she be willing to have bariatric surgery (like a stomach stapling procedure). Has she just started gaining weight, or is she letting other things slip like personal hygene, activity level, sleeping habits, etc... When was the last time she had a physical exam by a physician?
Everyone knows that we should treat our bodies as temples. Yet weight gain is a huge problem in our society due to our decreased activity level and access to caloric dense processed food. Brigham Young was a pretty heafty man. Thomas S. Monson would be categorized as obese if you calculated his body mass index. Heck I wished I weighed 40 pounds less.
Can you imagine a fat Adam and Eve or Jesus Christ? I can't.
Usually, non-pathologic weight gain is secondary to change of environment, carelessness, or loss of self esteme. If the husband has contributed to her loss of self esteme then he can do a lot to fix it by changing himself.
My advice is to find out the reason why she is gaining weight first. Until you figure out the cause all your doing is wasting your time.
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I reject the idea that there is a Royal Line of perfect anointed souls that can progress through the eternities like Jehovah and Elohim. If this was so, all the other non-perfect spirit children of Elohim would be illegitimate heirs and not be able to inherit his fullness.
Unless youve figured that one out?
Pee Stick Says...
in General Discussion
Posted
When your wife delivers stand at the head of the bed and hold her hand. Dont use a camcorder. Unless of course you decided to deliver at home. We had our last 2 as home births, it was much easier. The first birth can be more difficult so I recommend having the first in a hospital.
Breastfeeding is the only option. Its healthier for the baby. And (more importantly) daddy dosent have to mix formula in the middle of the night and stay up holding the bottle.
Dont try to discipline your kids too much. After 8 kids... looking back, we tried too hard on the firstborn. Lovem and they will do well.