mikbone
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Posts posted by mikbone
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If you would have watched farther along you would have found out that the scene was not about sex but about entrapment.
M.
Well then I guess that makes it ok...
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Anyone else feel that the sex was over the top this year?
We couldn't watch the halftime show.
And we stayed up to watch the Elementary show after the superbowl because we both like Sherlock Holmes, and the commercials looked ok. Big mistake! The opening scene was out of control. Really, how much sex does sherlock holmes need??? A good story should stand on its own merit.
We don't watch CBS, NBC, or ABC anymore. Just fox news and the science channels.
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That means that sometimes I follow someone who gives counsel or instructions that are wrong, flawed, or just plain stupid.
Really?
If I get the impression that my instructors are recommending to me that I do something stupid. I do not do it. I don't deify them openly, but I do speak my mind and concerns. If I am wrong in my assumptions, I like to learn the error in my thinking.
With prayer, the spirit, the light of Christ and council with our brethren, we should never feel that we are doing something wrong or stupid. I certainly have not.
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Interesting. It seems some think sustaining a leader means only when we think they are doing what the Lord wants, or doing what we think is a righteous and worthwhile thing.
To me, sustaining a leader means even when we don't agree (and as long as it isn't actually harmful), then I follow their counsel. That means that sometimes I follow someone who gives counsel or instructions that are wrong, flawed, or just plain stupid. But, then, I'm not perfect either, so I thank all those who have sustained me in my callings when I've done things that are wrong, flawed or stupid.
It's clear, to me, that the guide says that these meetings can be as infrequent or often as the president thinks is needed. He thinks they are needed monthly. You think they are not. If you have expressed your concerns and thoughts to him and he still chooses to go ahead with this, then as his counselor, you should sustain that decision. He may realize after a month or so that you are right--or he may think that these are truly needed based on the input he is receiving from these interviews.
Since I'm the OP I'm gonna answer this. But I have grown weary of this thread...
We are not required to follow our leaders over a cliff. You and I both know that incorrect decisions have been made in the past by local authorities. And even many general authorities were excommunicated in the early LDS church history. Your above argument leaves no room for anyone to come to their leaders with legitimate concerns. I am the the first councilor in the EQ, not the first follower. Why do you suppose that they chose the word councilor?
When I spoke in private about my concerns of monthly PPIs with my EQP and discussed the pertinent portion of the Handbook, he expressed great relief because he felt that he had been failing at his calling because he was not able to perform these frequent interviews and he realized that they had not achieved the desired effect of increasing HT numbers. We discussed ways that we could work smarter not harder and are making some news plans for the quorum.
My original desire for this thread was to see if anyone on this site was doing monthly PPIs, if they were effective. And where this idea originated from.
How many PPIs have you had as a member from your quorum leader over the years as an average? Cuz the number of PPIs that I have had during my 25+ years is exactly one.
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Correction it says "at least once a year." That is a minimum limit not a maximum one
I'm gonna quote the exact phrase one more time for those who have difficulty with the interpretation of english.
"Where possible, they visit or interview quorum or group members at least once a year."
Notice how the phrase begins. Where possible - The writers of the handbook recognize that it is not possible to to even have yearly meetings with some of the quorum members.
Next, you may notice that the option is given to either visit or interview each member. This wording was put there for a reason. Perhaps some of the quorum members will benefit more from a visit than an interview. Perhaps we should be using the spirit to guide us. Finally the format of the visit or interview are not dictated. It is interesting that you can find power point presentations online of how to correctly perform these PPI's.
Finally, at least once a year. The majority of people whom read this phrase will interpret the meaning to be annually. But in some circumstances you may be guided to have more frequent follow-up.
In my opinion this phrase does not justify monthly PPIs. Monthly or Daily PPIs to me actually seem like a program that Lucifer would have employed to make sure that we would be following his regulations.
D&C 29: 34-35 - We are agents unto ourselves.
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Repent, stop feeling sorry for yourself, buy a lock for your door, and communicate with your wife.
Doing what is right doesn't take a genius. It takes committment and self control.
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Question - if you happen to make it there, and you see one, what will you do?
Say howdy?
Can an unrepentant thief and addict make it to the celestial kingdom?
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This is a spinoff of another thread, in which one poster indicated that, as a newlywed, he gave his wife a "condition" that she not prepare casseroles, and that they not purchase cream of mushroom soup. A few other people commented that laying it out as a condition of marriage was probably inappropriate.
It got me thinking. Most people had a "list" of some kind when they were single -- qualities and attributes they sought in a spouse (sense of humor, testimony, education, etc.). Many people may have had a complementary list of things they considered dealbreakers (porn addiction, non-LDS, Yankees fan, etc.)
What is the difference between a dealbreaker and a condition? Why is one okay, but another isn't? What about requests? (Perhaps the anti-casserole-ite in the other thread said condition, but meant request.)
Did you have any dealbreakers? Conditions? Requests? How have you dealt with them in your marriage?
Guess I gotta comment, cuz I am the poster of the 'other thread'. And I'm gonna one up you.
I don't believe in unconditional love.
I chose to marry my wife in the temple because I dated her and I knew what I was getting. I knew that she was a hard working upstanding LDS elect lady who wanted to be a stay at home mom and raise up our children in righteousness.
If she were to start smoking, drinking, and sleeping around, we would have to get a divorce. Sometimes I slip up and am not at my best and she whips me into shape. At times when she is having difficulty, I do what I can to help her get her mind straight and gut it out.
We don't accept our faults blindly. We try to fix the things that are wrong. But accept the things we can't change.
The Lord is not going to let the meth addict thief into the celestial kingdom. Why not? Because there are regulations that we have to meet if we are to be judged eligible to inherit eternal life.
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ftw = flips the wig?
= for the win?
Yes for the win.
Clears up the misconception from:
Richard Ostling in his TIME Magazine, PBS NewsHour with Jim Lehrer interview, asked President Hinckley whether “God the Father was once a man as we are.” Hinckley’s answer was: “I don’t know that we teach it . . . I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse.”24 Again in an interview with Don Lattin appearing in the San Francisco Chronicle in April 1997, Lattin asked Hinckley: “[D]on’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?” Hinckley replied: “I wouldn’t say that. There was a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.”25
Richard and Joan Ostling noted how shortly after his public remarks, before an “in-house, all-Mormon audience . . . at General Conference, Hinckley talked about media depictions of the church and, in an apparently pointed reference to those interviews, assured his listeners, ‘None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine.’ He added, ‘I think I understand them thoroughly.’ ”26
I copied the above from http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/49/49-3/JETS_49-3_549-568_Huggins.pdf
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Lesson #5 ftw!
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I don't understand your answer. Probably because I'm a dummy, but maybe because I didn't make my point clear.
In 1970 I belonged to a ward in Florida. We had PPIs Today I belong to a ward in Ca. we have PPIs. How could one business mans ideas influence both? Not only are they separated by distance, but they are also separated by time. Brother Ray
I'll try to be more specific.
The Handbook states 7.3.2
"Where possible, they visit or interview quorum or group members at least once a year."
The term Personal Priesthood Interview is not in the handbook nor the scriptures. You can find it in the Ensign yes and all over the Internet. I remember when I was a missionary and was instructed to give discussions from memory word for word. The missionaries no longer are required to do this, their discussions are much more free flowing allowing circumstances and the spirit to dictate how they teach.
If you have been having monthly PPIs since the 1970s that would be approximately 500 PPIs. I highly doubt that you have had near 500 PPIs... If you have had that many, you have my condolences.
When my EQ president informed me that we are required to do monthly PPIs with each and every member of our Elders quorum I felt a great unease, for the following reasons.
1) Time requirement for interviews would be excessive and burdensome on the presidency, members and secretary setting the appointments.
2) It felt like I was to micromanage the Elders in our quorum. With directed questions about their life, Goal setting, and accountability.
3) Repetitive nature of these interviews would no doubt make the interviews less significant than annual interviews or visits.
4) I had never had monthly PPIs previously as a member of my prior quorums in Texas, Utah (BYU), or California.
5) I am already having plenty of contact with the EQ members with church events, home teaching, home teaching reports, weekly priesthood meetings, etc.
6) The requirement of these monthly PPIs is not reasonable, and in my opinion will lead to failure. Especially in a ward whose home teaching numbers were in the teens.
7) When I asked my EQP if the PPIs were having any positive effect on the HT numbers he said that they were not.
7) The Handbook does not recommend monthy PPIs.
This monthly PPI recommendation struck me as a business model of a boss micromanaging and checking up on his employees. Much like the 360 degree evaluations where I used to have to evaluate my Attending Surgeons, nurses, etc, during my residency. All the residents would sit down for an hour at the end of each month and circle numbers. Some residents would vent on their evaluations whereas I would never leave any comments. Those 360 evaluations did not have any effect on our business model other than wasting an hour of my life every month until we decided as a group to stop the process after a 6 month trial.
I recommended to my EQP that we do PPIs on a annual basis and that with the time that we save we could actually work on Home teaching. I asked my EQP to give me the names of some elders who were not doing their HT and that I would start taking them out Home teaching to teach their families. This gives me the opportunity to pray with the Elders. Show them what a home teaching visit consists of, and meet some of the ward members in their homes. It allows personal visits with the elders, and bolsters our HT numbers.
I have a testimony of Home Teaching not monthly PPIs. I felt inspired to question the motivation and plan of my EQP.
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yes Exodus, thanks.
So, if anyone other than the Lord, or the Prophet's father, or whomever ordained the Prophet were
to mention that what Moses was doing was not right they would
have been apostate?
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Genesis 18: 13-18
Was Jethro apostate in the above
scripture?
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Your interpretation has a danger to it, because I've never heard the bretheren of the church echo any such sentiment. Presitent Benson's son certainly felt this way, and even said so during a 60 Minutes interview. When the bretheren give new directives, it has always been assumed that the members would individually, and as a family, take up the matter in personal prayer and seek to add it to their testimony, to confirm from God himself that what was said is actually true.
Think about it; if your interpretation is how it is intended to be done, why bother giving everybody the gift of the holy ghost? If we're not supposed to do our own searching and due dilligence, why even preach the importance of personal prayer?
Now, I understand that this is your interpretation of the article in question and not necessarily what your personal view is of the issue. I just wanted to get my thoughts out on that very common misconception of our church, and of Christianity in general.
Off of my box, and done hijacking the thread
Did you read the entire link, including George Albert Smith's reply to the article in question?
I'm pretty sure that the original author implied that we should follow our leaders blindly. It's even worse that the title of the article is following the Prophet. The he makes the blanket statement for all church leaders at the crux of the arguement.
I agree with George Albert Smith. We should get our own confirmation that we are following God's will.
I have never in my life had to question the council of a prophet or anything presented in a general conference. But I have served under Bishops and stake presidents whom were later excommunicated. As well as an inactive mission president...
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I have been in 6 wards, in 3 states, over 4 decades. They all had PPIs Do you really think
the influence of someone with a professional administration job could spread over such a large area of distance, and time? Brother Ray
Monthly PPIs?
Every 2 years I get an interview from my bishop and stake president for a temple recommend. it works for me.
Youu ever done 360 evaluations? Couple years ago a hospital administrator had everyone in the hospital evaluating everyone. I'm not sure it accomplished anything other than giving the administrator a whole bunch of reading material.
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btw, I really have a hard time believing that you would find it difficult as a physician to sit down and conduct an interview that involves intimate issues - I would think you likely have the most skills out of any of your quorum to conduct such intimate interviews - maybe there is inspiration there that you are not seeing right now.
LoL, there is quite a lot of difference between a physician and a Orthopaedic surgeon. I think of myself as a carpenter with sterile instruments. I almost failed my psych rotation because I though that most of it was garbage.
I don't like to get into intimate issues with my patients. Thats what a primary care physician if for. :)
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On the contrary, when our leaders speak, my assumption is that they are not pulling this idea out of their nether regions on a lark. I assume rather that they have thought long and hard about it, and have probably prayed about it and sought the will of God. So when they speak, I do in fact assume there has been a great deal of thinking done.
I think we are interpreting this classic article differently. The thinking has been done article that I am referring to is, When the Prophet Speaks, Is the Thinking Done? « FAIR
You appear to read it as if the author was implying that when a church leader speaks, He has performed his due diligence, studied it out in his mind, prayed about it, and received devine inspiration. Thus the leader's thinking is done.
I interpret the authors meaning as a bit more sinister. Such as, when a church leader speaks, those members whom are in the audience have no need to think about the directive. It is the word of God. The thinking is done move on and obey blindly.
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If the quorum president asked/instructed you to do this, he's the one who holds the keys, so it IS his decision. And if your stake president asked/instructed you to do this, then he holds the priesthood keys over the entire stake, and specifically over the Melchizedek Priesthood, so it is entirely within his rights and duty to give such an instruction.
Really, your only legitimate question is: Do you sustain your leaders?
I believe that I do.
In your above statement you seem to champion the, "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done." Ideology. I have read enough of your posts here on LDS.net to know that you don't really think this way...
Do you think that I am apostate for using the light of Christ and questioning the decisions of my leaders when I have a legitimate feeling of unease? Is it wrong to search the scriptures and Handbook and ask for a meeting on a certain topic that our leaders have presented?
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Good Afternoon mikbone. I hope you have been well! :)
The quorum president has a right to receive revelation as it pertains to the quorum. As Vort pointed out, the Quorum Presidency has a responsibility for the spiritual and temporal welfare of their quorum and doing personal interviews of the quorum members seems like a means of fulfilling this responsibility. Each quorum president can receive revelation on how they are going to implement the responsibility of watching over their quorum.
But, if you are a counselor in the EQ presidency then you certainly can counsel with your president and let him know your feelings. My suggestion though is that if he disagrees, you move on. There is nothing evil going on and I would not get hung up on this point.
Regards,
Finrock
Thank you. And yes I am well.
I do respect personal revelation as well as revelation from my local leaders. But this single issue of Monthly PPIs with all quorum members seemed over the top. It is an incredible time consumer between setting up the visits and performing them. It struck me as micro-management. And it can only lead to failure in my opinion. Especially in a quorum whose HT numbers are usually in the teens...
As I already related when I addressed my concerns with my EQP, he was in agreement with my assessment and relieved that I was able to point out the Handbook reference which implies that elder quorum visits or interviews should be yearly. I did not go into details concerning where his understanding of the monthly PPI concept originated and frankly I don't really want to get into the details. It came from somewhere, no doubt. Perhaps from the '75 Ensign article previously cited. Or from another local leader...
"The greatest fear I have is that the people of this Church will accept what we say as the will of the Lord without first praying about it and getting the witness within their own hearts that what we say is the word of the Lord." Brigham Young
We plan on doing our yearly interviews. And with the extra time on our hands we have implemented a program of setting appointments for less active home teachers and actually going home teaching with them.
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I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to suggest anything other than I had found some articles that might be helpful. I was at work at the time on a break.
I went back to find one of the Ensign articles June 1975 Personal Interview Procedure Strengthens Priesthood Home Teaching https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/06/keeping-pace/personal-interview-procedure-strengthens-priesthood-home-teaching?lang=eng&query=%22personal+priesthood+interview%22
I quote: "... the personal priesthood interviews are an essential part of watching over the Church and take place as often as necessary and at any time during the month, except on Monday evenings." Also no author listed.
It's certainly meant for instruction rather than mandate but regardless of the date I feel noteworthy, and a window into how far back the PPI concept may go.
But the HBoI it's not. The last one you listed was also one I had seen. I realize this isn't what you are really looking for, but it's well intended.
No worries.
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7.4.4 - Reporting Home Teaching
This is in addition to monthly reporting of home teaching. EQP's are to meeting regularly with their home teachers to discuss the information mentioned.
I wonder if this is changed wordage from the old handbook and now the newer handbook. I don't have the old handbook to verify, but I do remember while EQP it was mentioned to meet with the home teachers quarterly to discuss their stewardship.
Yes and thank you. I am aware of HT reporting. I have been in various elders quourms over the years and have received sporadic reporting phone calls. I assume that I have also been involved in these 'quarterly' or 'regularly' meetings usually where upon I am asked in a hallway how my families are doing, and my report is most often 'good'.
I wish I had an old handbook to consult...
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Yep, they do. So does quarterly. You are appealing to the Handbook in a way it isn't meant to be used. It is not a document delineating all possible acceptable actions one may take in pursuit of fulfilling their stewardship or obligations. However, even if we do take it that way, the Handbook which you quoted mentions interviews and it mentions interviews happening more frequently than yearly. You're looking to trump your EQP, or the idea of PPI, with an appeal to the Handbook and based on the part you yourself quoted that dog just won't hunt.
This isn't an argument to sit down and shut up, by all means counsel with the EQP, that is your call, about your concerns of time use and propriety of content.
I disagree. I implemented the Handbook in an appropriate manner. I had a concern, knew that the material was not within the standard works. Then I went to the Handbook
Handbook 2
Administering the Church
Introduction
Leaders also learn their duties by studying the instructions in Church handbooks. These instructions can facilitate revelation if they are used to provide an understanding of principles, policies, and procedures to apply while seeking the guidance of the Spirit.
When I was a missionary in southern Chile back in '89, I had to explain to the local bishop that there was no such thing as the 'Holy Bowl' from which the extra sacrament bread was to be discarded into and that no female of the church was permitted to touch.
The handbook speaks for itself.
I feel strongly that monthly or even quarterly PPIs for the Elders Quorum are not the expressed will of the document.
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Ok I guess I am a bit confused. I mean I get the whole personal revelation thing... I really do. That why I am very well aware of those who can legitimately do so. All those have clear stewardship over me. Anyone else can be safely rejected.
My confusion stems from how can you be getting instruction to hold such PPIs, without said person also having the necessary stewardship to legitimately receive revelation on it?
I actually went along with the program for a few weeks, until I felt the impression that what we were doing was wrong. I went to the handbook. Did my research and then discussed my concerns with my EQP.
He expressed great relief. He also felt that the monthly program was particularly burdensome. And despite his efforts, the HT numbers had hovered within the 10-20% range.
The reason I made this post was to get a feeling of what if any other EQ members have experienced with the PPIs and if they were doing them on a monthly, or yearly basis.
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You quoted it yourself in the OP. I would say that monthly qualifies as "at least once per year" wouldn't you? It doesn't mandate monthly, but monthly certainly falls within the wording. Or is your argument, "Well, it mentions interviews but it doesn't call them PPIs!"
I'll quote the statement again for clarity.
"Where posssible, they visit or interview quorum or group members at least once a year"
Monthly does qualify. But then again, so does daily... hourly...
Very Smart People
in General Discussion
Posted
I've know many intelligent people. And many individuals who thought it was very important that I realize that they were intelligent. There is a huge difference.
I think anyone that is prideful of their blessings either good looks or intelligence can be rather irritating to be around.
If we were able to test Jesus Christ's IQ, I'm sure that He would be off the chart. Does that mean that He is irritating? Doubt it.