mikbone
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Posts posted by mikbone
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Do you think that the Holy Ghost has a Spirit Body and is a Begotten Child of our heavenly Father?
1) Do you think that the Holy Ghost has a Spirit Body?
He is a spirit. I don't like the term Spirit Body because it is misleading. The Holy Ghost does not have a tangeable body. He is a personage of spirit. I could say that Elohim has a Spirit Body and in a sense be correct. Elohim has a resurrected celestial body of Flesh and Bone, but his (Elohim's) body does not have blood flowing through his veins. I imagine that Elohim's body is quickened by spirit or a kind of light that flows thru his circulatory system. So no, I do not believe that he, the Holy Ghost, has a Spirit Body. I believe that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.
2) Is the Holy Ghost a Begotten Child of our Heavenly Father?
Im unsure of the question. In what sense do you mean Begotten? For example. I believe that my Spirit was begotten by Elohim. My mortal physical tabernacle was begotten by my mortal parents. My soul on Earth has been spiritually begotten or reborn by Jesus Christ through the ordinance of his atonement and my earthly baptims. D&C 76:24, 93:22, Mosiah 5:7. If I had to make a guess I would say probably. But I don't know. Current revelations that we have concerning the specifics of his origin are limited.
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I haven't heard any.
I like a good story though.
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If you like symbolism you'll probably like this post. Or... Hate it.
Bible Dictionary: Dove, Sign of
The idea that the Holy Ghost can appear as a dove is a misconception.
Matthew 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
D&C 93:15
And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.
If you look at the Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2, Figure 7 you can see what the Sign of the Dove actually is... Link to Facsimile No. 2
You have to turn the facsimile upside down to see it properly but you see a seated man with his left arm at his side with the forearm extended, and with his right arm to the square.
This is the sign of the dove. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his personage of spirit in this position. He was not a dove.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 276
"The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence."
And NOT incidentally, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in this position. He also has his hand cupped so he can receive the right wrist of the person being baptized. I believe that the cupping position of the left hand is not coincidental.
Now to make a leap of faith and bring it all together...
Baptism symbolizes rebirth and the birth of Christ. We know that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Alma 7:10
And behold, he shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and concieve by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
Medical definition of conception - The onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst into the endometrium. Or in layman's terms - when the embryo attaches to the mother's uterus wall and begins to receive sustenance from the mother.
I believe that the highest symbolism of the Sign of the Dove is the Holy Ghost holding the embryo of Jesus Christ in his cupped left hand prior to the delivery of the holy seed into the Virgin Mary's Uterus.
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Doctrine and Covenants section 9
1 THERE are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.
Verse 7 mentions an order...
Either Jesus had to fullfill the order as you have said milkbone or he didnt want her to think she was just being illusional or she could say she had a dream of jesus.
Are you saying Jesus was a Just Man Made Perfect at this point? That he was a disembodied spirit yet and still waiting for the reunion of body and spirit?
And its Mikbone not Milkbone - a concatenation of my last name and line of work not a dog buscuit :)
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Thanks for all the comments.
Im getting a better idea, I just enjoy the details. Always have. Think I'm gonna have to spend some time in the temple to figure this one out.
I see 2 reasons why Jesus would not allow Mary to touch him. 1) to protect her from injuring herself (like Abanidi or Nephi, or steading the Ark of the covenant), or 2) protect himself from her defiling touch.
It seems like if Jesus wanted to, he could have exited the tomb without having to have the tomb cover stone moved. But apparently he needed the angels to move the stone for him. Its also interesting that he left his mortal clothes in the tomb. I assume that the 2 angles were Michael (the angel that strengthened him in the garden), and Gabriel (the angel that originally declared his birth).
I think that at this time he was a resurrected immortal man without blood in his body. But obviously he did have the prints in his hands and wrists. I think that the baptism clearly represents the birth of Christ. And that the resurrection represents baptism of fire or gift of the Holy Ghost.
I think that Jesus didn't allow Mary to touch him because he had to present himself to the father in a clean state and complete the patriarchal chain. I think there is still more there that is there though...
--- Edit ---
Think I missed something pretty important.
If you look at the footnote for touch - JST "Hold me not"
This kinda makes it look like Mary was embracing him, and he is saying. I gotta go... Although she may have been approaching him for an embrace and he forestalled her.
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John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Any insight as to why Jesus did not allow Mary to touch him?
I can't figure out the significance.
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When the final judgement is upon us. I believe that we will judge ourselves with God as a witness. We will completely understand the role of both justice and mercy and there will be no dobut as to which kingdom we deserve. I also believe that there is a form of repentance in the next life prior to the final judgement, its just alot more complicated than if we do it while on Earth.
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Im sporting a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon. And I gotta say is was worth the struggle.
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Humans are born with inteligence and the abiltiy to reason. Other animals cannot. There are reasons for this other than the size of our cerebrum...
I have lots of kids, they have different personalities. They were born with these personalities. I did not teach them. They all have very similar DNA but there is something that makes them vastly different that modern science CANNOT explain.
Some people have a predisposition to excell at music, or art, or science.
An excellent explanation would be that these were things that we gained during out pre-mortal life and that have stayed with us.
When we die we are sent to the spirit world. Some people go to spirit prison and some go to paradise. From the D&C 138 we know that those in spirit prison must be taught by those in paradise about the gospel. In effect a mission was set up by the Savior during the 3 days that his body lie in the tomb in Jerusalem. If after death we all are given our pre-mortal memories why did this mission have to be set up? Why do they have to be taught the gospel?
Why must every knee bow and every tongue confess - Isaiah 45:23? If we all get our pre-mortal memories back it will be obvious no?
I feel strongly that the transition from this life to the next is not going to gaurantee you an endowment of gifts. We are going to continue to have to grow and progress. I do think that we will be able to eventually unlock our previous memories, but that there are requirements that we must fulfill before we can obtain these blessings.
When I was sealed in the temple, the worker that sealed my wife and I stated that when we pass into the spirit world we will be able to feel each others presence due to the sealing power (and thus will be able to easily reuinite). And that we will have the same ability with our children. This necessairly means that those that are not sealed will not have this ability and will have to search for their loved ones. I have never seen this explained by a prophet but it sounds like truth to me.
The final fronteir will be an excellent journey but I dont think that it is going to be a Disney Cruise Ship. We still have work to do...
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Everyone has the light of Christ. People know when they do something wrong. I think at the final judgement we will be able to have a perfect recollection of all our actions, thoughts, and motivations, and our judge will also be privy to those same actions, thoughts, and motivations. Our mortal lives will be an open book to read and there will be no deception.
We will not be judged on our pre-mortal lives.
All Im saying is that, passing thru the veil is an ordinance. And with that ordinance comes the foreknowledge of the pre-existence. When you die you go to heaven, but that dosent mean that you necessairly get to pass thru the veil. I think that many people think that when this life passes that there will be some huge enlightment and all our prior gifts and knowledge will come rushing back. Line upon line, precept upon percept.
"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." D&C 130:18-19
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You would be guilty for your sins that you comitted during this life. Every single one that you had not fully repented of.
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I think that recollections of our memories and guilt apply to our mortal actions. I dont think any of us did anyting that would lead to guilt during the pre-existence (were here so we passed the pre-mortal test), congradulations everyone!
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Ah. I personally reject the idea that such Julie/Todd promises were commonplace in the pre-mortal life, but I have a better idea where you're coming from now. Thanks.
Dunno about Julie/Todd promises. But Im pretty darn positive that at least some of my children and I had relationships in the pre-existence. Based both on patriarchal blessing and intuition. Of course having 8 kids increases these possibilities. :)
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Where to start???
I think that is real important that a person have integrity in their life.
Have you ever had a temple interview? If you have, were you able to answer the questions such as:
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
If you can answer those questions with a wholehearted yes you are in the right place. If not, its probably time to do some soul searching.
People have doubts, I know that I have had lots of questions. But I have a powerful testimony of the truth of the church, doctrine, and literature.
Do we have to believe that Joseph Smith was perfect? No. Did Moses ever make a mistake while leading the Israelites? How about King David? Our records of the old prophets are so limited compared to the history of the latter day prophets. I sure have noticed the care that modern day prophets have taken to limit the amount of deep doctrine that they discuss in public forums just so they will not be misunderstood. And it makes sense. What is most important is the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.
I think the specifics of your listed doubts are trivial.
What teachings of Joseph Smith about God the Father do you reject?
Noah's Ark and the Flood: Did the entire Earth have to be covered in water submerging Mt. Everest? John Widtsoe wrote that the flood was indeed great but that the mountain tops only had to have water raining on them hard enough so that there was a continuos sheet of water covering them. If you read closely you will notice that the water that covered the Earth came from the atmosphere as well as deep within the Earth. The earth itself was baptized, and incidentally During the 2nd coming it will receive its baptism of fire.
So where was the Garden of Eden? Is this important for your salvation? I'll stand by Brother Smith btw. Polygamy was practiced by the ancient prophets, was it wrong then?
Finally, the Book of Mormon is the most correct book of scripture that we have. Of this I have no doubt. You just might not be interpreting it correctly.
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This topic is probably in the wrong forum btw. Its not really doctrine. I can't really tell if your asking for advice though either...
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Mikbone, are you suggesting that persons who attain a Terrestrial or Telestial glory won't know that there was a pre-mortal life? Or merely that they won't remember it?
I think they will have no recollection. They obviously will have hearsay. Possibly they will be able to view videos of important events that occured during the pre-existence. But for example they will not remember that they promised a special person that they would find them in mortality and have a family with them, and progress thru eternity with them... That would just be cruel.
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When we come to Earth we pass thru the veil and our pre-mortal memories are wiped.
We know that some prophets have parted the veil and seen the other side. I assume that when a person receives his calling and election that they are allowed to part the veil. We also know that Christ was able to penetrate the veil and recollect his pre-mortal memories early in his life.
My question is this. When we pass thru this life into the next, I had assumed that we were able to recieve our pre-mortal memories. But after contemplation I wonder if only those who are able to enter into the Celestial Kingdom and pass thru the veil will be granted their pre-mortal memories? I also believe in justice, thus it makes sense that the same rules that apply here apply there, so I'm wondering if each of us has to have our Calling and Election made sure either here on Earth or in heaven prior to receiving our pre-mortal memories.
I think it would be cruel to let those people in the Telestial and Terestrial Kingdoms have their pre-mortal memories. Also interesting is that all of the other churches that preach that there is no pre-existence will kinda have a point. If they never convert to the full truth, they will never recognize that there was a pre-existence.
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But he is the Prophet Bringham Young. Explain to me the this, how can you discount a Prophet. My point is not meant to be argumentative, but rather I do not understand how you can pick and choose what you believe in and what you do not when the person here is a Prophet. Help explain this please, Jim
Yeah, hes a prophet. Hes also a man. He can speak as both.
Brigham Young spoke as a man lots. I think he said that man would never go to the moon once, I've never seen the quote and don't think its worth the time too look it up.
Did he make that statement off the cuff, or did he say "and this I say in the Name of Jesus Christ" after the statment?
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Dunno, but I doubt it.
My wife says no.
In our household, she is the authority on that point.
I bet it is the same on the other side.
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It is true.
Amen.
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Weapons in the pre-existence could be 2 things that I can think of.
1) Words, Logic and truth in the case of the Nephites or Michael's Army. And lies, half truths in the case of the Lamanites or Zarehemna
2) Priesthood power is used by the power of your word and faith, so priesthood
Earlier I think i stated that Helmet or Head plate would protect your brain or consciousness, thus the knowledge of the truth that what you are doing is just, or conviction of your cause.
So the un-named soldier broke or exposed Lucifers Lies and made him lose his conviction in front of his men. Bet that hurt. This makes sense cuz lots of the Lamanites lost their will to continue fighting. But the Lamanites that continued fighting were fighting out of pure emnity (they realized that their lies had been exposed and that indeed their cause was unjust). These idiots were the ones that were eventually cast out or down.
The scalp falling to the ground of course would also be symbolic of him being cast down to earth.
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Maybe this is just me nitpicking, but I believe the scripture is part of Moroni's Abridgement of the plates of Ether so it would have been a translation from the "reformed egyptian" translation of the adamic language. (ie Adamic Language > Nephite translation > Moroni's Abridgement > English).
Yeah sorry if I misled ya with my weakness in writing.
Joseph Smith used the urim & thummin to translate the book of Ether (BoM p. 487-518) from the golden plates reformed egyptian into English.
Moroni used the urim & thummin to translate the plates of ether (24 golden plates found by the people of Limhi) Adamic language into reformed egyptian.
They both used the same pair of urim and thummin (which incidently was the U&T that was given by Jehovah to Mahonri) so I bet it was a pretty accurate translation. :)
Thanks for the feedback.
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Still studyin. So far this is my cast.
Zerahemnah - Lucifer
The Lord - Elohim
Alma - Jehovah
Captain Moroni - Adam
Lehi - Probably Gabriel
Un-named soldier - Another arch-angel (could have been raphael-Enoch, or Joseph Smith)
I know you like the un-named soldier as Michael. But I see Captain Moroni as the guy who cast down Lucifer. Revelations 12: 7-9
Alma 43:45
homes - right to tabernacle of flesh and blood
liberty - free agency
Wives and children - opportunity to enter into the everlasting covenant and have children
worship and church - Plan of Salvation
Alma 43:49-50 = Job 38:7
Still working on the geography. You got any insight?
Help a brother out.
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I think that a spirit is kinda an exalted light.
I like the idea of outer darkness being a black hole.
Black hole gravity is so strong that it does not allow light to escape which would make an excellent prison. In a black hole the laws of nature break down such that gravity is stronger than the electromagnetic, weak or strong force. Which would destroy all matter into its most component parts (possibly disrupting the property of gluons and allowing quarks to separate - I wish i knew more physics). We also know that over a very long time that black holes do give off radiation and eventually will evaporate. I dont begin to understand the basic principles but it sounds like an excellent way to recycle matter.
"Jesus says, he will DESTROY death and him that hath the power of it. What can you make of this but decomposition, the returning of the organized particles to their native element, after suffering the wrath of God until the time appointed. That appears a mystery, but the principle has been in existence from all eternity, only it is something you have not known or thought of. When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball’s old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again. All I have to say about it is what Jesus says—I will destroy Death, and him that hath the power of it, which is the devil. And if he ever makes “a full end of the wicked,” what else can he do than entirely disorganize them, and reduce them to their native element? Here are some of the mysteries of the kingdom." Brigham Young JD 1:275-276
Perhaps its not anhilation, but Damn...
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Head Plate or Helmet covers and protects your Brain or seat of your knowledge - the knowledge of the truth that what you are doing is just
Breastplate protects your internal organs and heart - thus your determination and courage
So when the Lamanites smote the Nephites they were able to - confuse them into losing their belief in the truth and demoralizing them such that they no longer had the will to defend their principles. Thus they were overcome, and fell in with the opposition.
The Sign of the Dove
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I reject the idea that there is a Royal Line of perfect anointed souls that can progress through the eternities like Jehovah and Elohim. If this was so, all the other non-perfect spirit children of Elohim would be illegitimate heirs and not be able to inherit his fullness.
Unless youve figured that one out?