Charlyc

Amazing!! sooo 10 million illegals aren't people? and if they get TB they don't spread it to the rest of the population. Soooo you can subtract them from your stats? Amazing! (but I keep hearing 25-40 million illegals from Hannity, but he exaggerates right?) And the guy who started a career and is paid $50k will never get TB, or hepA or anything that isn't contagious. And if he breaks both legs, arms and back, well thats just too bad for not being a good boy scout and paying the insurance company first before his apartment or new car? or does he go bankrupt to cover hospital costs? Amazing! Just subtract away....

Why thankyou for making this discussion personal. Now your views on that illegal invasion of that sovereign nation Iraq is......... ummmm.... missing in action? dead young soldiers, dead older soldiers, all heroes off course. very heroic! medal of honor worth....whatever! And heath care.....never mind, keep you barbaric system as it is, let the uninsured ysa who breaks a leg end up bankrupt......

Good point. In my downunder ignorance I thought that democratic massachusses (how ever its spelled :) ) elected a mormon Romney but then his religion became a big issue in the GOP primaries.

Goodness, I only just read this. So then, the ends justify the means? Liberation? I doubt it. Invading a sovereign nation on a mistaken belief is simply a war crime in my book no matter what the long term outcome. And sure australia sent some air traffic controllers and some medical personnel but then Howard lost the 08 election partly due to his iraq war support and became only the second PM in australian history to loose his seat in an election defeat. Nice going. But then again Blair and the spanish PM also lost their jobs partly over Iraq war. If things were really just in this world, Bush + Blair and probably Howard and the spanish PM would all be tried as war criminals. How 'Christian' Mormons could ever support a war, and an illegal one at that, is beyond me at least. On health care, look keep the system you now have, it doesn't affect me. I guess you don't consider young people as countable in these stats, or illegals, so I doubt I could ever convince you of the problems everyone sees with the US system, so I'll leave it at that. But on that Iraq war, well seems that because you agree with the gop's social agenda as opposed to democrats, you'll accept any war they may want. If I remember correctly Bush started with skirmishes with the Chinese with those 'captured' fighters but 9/11 changed his tactics, but I guess you'd be talking about 'liberating' the Chinese had a war occurred back in '01? never mind...

Most countries are actually two-tier systems, so treatment isn't limited at all if one pays insurance but the nation system can treat all life threatening conditions and just about all others within reason. Wikipedia explains it quite well. The misinformation here or maybe misunderstanding is amazing. A good example could be any typical uncomfortable minor hernia -in two-tier systems if you have private cover you are booked into a private hospital and fixed in a day or two, but if one doesn't then you go to the public system where the waiting list for non-life threatening, called elective surgery, will be months. But either way you are fixed up. If its life threatening, eg myocardial infarction, the public system will do everything quickly from coronary angiogram to stent or bipass, whatever is needed, at no cost to the patient. But if one has private cover one can choose a private room in a private hospital with cable tv and fresh flowers every day if that's your way....plus getting done off course.

Ummm...facts aren't for fear mongering. Sure there may be 'poor' options available however Mrs Ramsey didn't have those available when her cancer returned so she just died, Obama's mum had to argue to get treatment even though she had cover, plus all the other anecdotes around -some just ridiculous like having to 'pre-approve' an ambulance trip when you are unconscionable from a car accident!- they all make the rest of the world look to the US system and say: No, that's not the way to go. I mean no country is trying to copy the US health care system, only americans seem to think this, that should say something. Countries may look to Cuba or Germany but not the US system. All countries seem to want to improve their health care and reduce costs but they start at full coverage first and then work on the problem. The US seems to do it the other way around, cover the rich first, make healthcare insurance businesses profitable and then think about the rest.........but I'm rambling now so yea, enough said.

I know a couple who were excommunicated for adultery in '94 (I was in that then court) but stayed together after that, married and where sealed -or married in the Temple in 2004- for time and all eternity. Both had children from first marriages who weren't all adults yet but that didn't stop them obtaining the necessary clearance&annulment. Pres Kimball may well have believed the above but today the first presidency is much more forgiving.

Yes, if all the paperwork is in order and it reaches the committee then in 3-4 months they return an answer. the cases delayed more than this is because of some problem with paperwork either incomplete or missing, and due to church employees keeping everything super secret, they usually don't tell people that a letter or two are missing or the letter doesn't address the issue until a SP chases things up. But what you write in 3 & 4 should be clearly explained in the your letter addressed to President Monson. Especially if you still prefer to be married. But then the outcome is almost a lottery. I know cases that came back denied when there wasn't any clear reason for that since both had formed new families and others, partners in adultery, permitted although the partners left behind were still single. Either case you are never 'screwed' because you have this life plus the 1000 years of millennium to find that partner for exaltation. Personally I'd forget about this girl who now wants to marry someone else.

Yes, it is fear tactics or scare mongering. And it seems to me at least that it's all coming from the republican side. Fact is that some 40 million americans (more than Canadian population) have no health cover so if these people get cancer they die. Patsie Ramsey is a good example of this problem; Obama's mother another good example of what even those with coverage have to go through to get treatment. Seems that republicans call this poor treatment of patients "competition" The real question is why the average american can't see this or doesn't seem to realize how much better health care is in places like Canada, Sweeden or GB compared to theirs. And also, with what the republicans did in Iraq plus the health care problems, why so many mormons identify with the republican side of policy.

Yes, certainly, since one of the main purpose of church discipline is to help the sinner repent; others are to protect the innocent and protect the good name of the church. But I wouldn't put 'Divorce' in that list of forms of Abuse since divorce is usually the best one way to stop an abusive relationship and a road to rebuilding after a case of abuse.

What is given after baptism ie the gift of the holy ghost, is withdrawn and one is like any other non member, who can feel the spirit but not as a constant companion. Some people who I saw excommunicated would comment later that they then knew what it meant to have the holy ghost now that they had lost its companionship. Re Carl62, Because of the process. General comments are that about 7 out of 10 excommunicated never return (although the church doesn't admit or publish this) and the process can be exhausting; the person needs to spend at least a year in church without taking the sacrament, then be re interviewed by Bishop and convince him that you have repented fully, if its an elder he also has to convince the SP first that he is fully repented, then have a new disciplinary council and have that go well, then be rebaptized formally; oh and the records would have been canceled and sometimes there's a messup getting the records back from HQ, then if endowed you have to wait another year after baptism before applying to first presidency for a 'restoration of blessings' and then if approved (can take 2 months to 12 months for the paperwork to return) be interviewed by a general authority, who sometimes is a apostle, and convince him that you've fully repented....well, its obvious that it's better not to sin in the first place.

No, one can't ask to be disfellowshipped per se, although if you bring it up any Bishop will probably see it as prima facie evidence that serious sin has been committed. But then he needs to check with the SP, discuss things, and then they decide if a formal disciplinary council is necessary. In that council only disfellowshipment or excommunication can be possible since you are already on probation, and for more than a year now. Chances are though that they may excommunicate you. Notice that if that happens you can't graduate from BYU; and if you are disfellowshipped they will still ask questions at BYU too to see if you are over this. It would be a honor code violation. I disagree though with your sentence "been trying for so long, and keep failing"....if you asked about this here and are talking to Bishop then you aren't failing, but working to fix what seems to be probably an addiction or additive behaviour today. I'd say that you need to repent every day, every morning, asking God for help to overcome this, and slowly that inner strength to stop this behaviour starts to develop. With the Bishop one needs to be upfront and honest, this is part of facing reality which all shrinks will tell you to do, to be honest with one's self and hold truth before the excuses. I hope all goes well and that they don't excommunicate you because it's difficult to return after that. Best wishes

.Yes, certainly. What the spirit guides one is the key and it comes down very clearly as a kind of light (in my experience) I used it as an expression, a figure of speech so people catch on. But certainly when one is repentant chances are they are disfellowshiped or placed on probation, as the majority of YSA cases, although if its an ex-bishopric member and a recent event, then chances are they are ex'd no matter how repentant, same with an incest case for example. Notice though that your friend was 'followed up' for a year which is the normal time for a disfellowshipment, probation is usually months and usually less than a year. But yes, we all pray about it on the night about it and this is done after several interviews. But I can personally assure you that no bishop really wants to excommunicate someone, its a hard to do, like firing someone at work that you know well. (Although there may be some overzealous bishop who thinks otherwise of course. )

Strictly speaking no. Disfellowshipment is more of a trial run for excommunication, which is know in the scriptures as: blotted out, shall not be numbered, cast out, cut off or excommunicate . Disfellowshipment is done to avoid the more draconian measure of excommunication, or being cast out, since that requires rebaptism for membership. Hence its a step the brethren have come up with as an alternative to the extreme measure which excommunication can be, especially for the endowed who will need to apply for restoration of their temple blessings a year after rebaptism.

Re: A dis-fellowshipped member is not allowed to pray to god? In public and on behalf of other people. Private pray though is encouraged.

Yes certainly.One must commit an 'act' for it to go before a council, brethren have spoken about this -although i don't deny that an overzealous Bishop may do one for SSA since there are all sorts out there in the church (bishops that is). but Bishop needs approval from Stake president first to hold one so I doubt it, unless both are extremely homophobic. Not necessarily. Handbook clearly states that a stake disciplinary council is convened only when there is a likelihood that a Melquisedec priesthood holder will be excommunicated (but after holding it the outcome may be any though after discussion, consideration etc). Also all formal discipline procedures, bishopric/branch and stake, must be authorized by stake president himself for it to go ahead. Handbook is also clear that a Bishop can hold formal discipline for a MelqPH holder (after approval from SP) but he can't excommunicate him. for example a 19 year old elder would, typically, be dealt with by a bishopric council with only disfellowshipment or probation the outcome since no one wants to see a young man excommunicated for being to 'friendly' with a girlfriend only (and this probably after informal discipline is attempted with restriction of sacrament etc)

"I think it depends on the Bishop. I" No, it depends on the stake president. Bishops need to inform him of everything before SP authorizes a formal disciplinary process. Only exception is if it is 'Informal' discipline such as the Bishop telling someone to not take the sacrament for 3 month but the above are example of outcomes from formal disciplinary proceedures. Real distinction is between formal and informal discipline. But then the outcome can vary. Specifically handbook has that excommunication is mandatory for murder and almost always for incest. Then 'usually' for adultery, especially if the member is endowed. After that any result is possible depending on A) time since sin committed and B) persons callings and status in the church C) amount of remorse and repentance shown. Typically a member who knows the doctrine and is experienced enough will be excommunicated for adultery, abortion or homosexuality. If its a new member or young person then usually its disfellowshipment. But it really depends on the entire case and what the SP or Bishop think since they are the only 'Judges' in the church. If its porn then usually its informal bishops probation. Felonies: one can take the result of the criminal trial to do a council and usually excommunication is the result since the good name of the church is put in jeopardy.

Tue. One is 'suspended' as member and doesn't have all the membership rights and privileges but doesn't loose membership nor gift of HG. Disfellowshipment is more of a 'see what can happen if you don't change' kind of thing, while excommunication is a dead end or the end unless there is full repentance and one fights to get back in, sometimes that fight can be very long and difficult.

" 1. Reasons for disfellowship 2. What is taken away from the disfellowshipped person 3. What part does the bishop play in getting the blessings restored? 4. What is the duration of time... can it go into years??? " It may be late for this but just in case: 1. Many, from violence to immorality but usually not the serious type like child abuse. Murder is mandatory excommunication, but depending on case just about all else could result in disfellowship if enough time has passed and the member is truly regretful and shows remorse. 2.Can't speak in church, take sacrament, hold callings but doesn't loose membership so doesn't need to be rebaptized when it over. On end of disfellowshipment a verbal notice is given during disciplinary council and letter informing him/her should be sent. Also doesn't loose temple blessing so still wears garments and doesn't need restoration of blessings at end obviously. 3. Critical part. He must prepare letter for 1st presidency giving faith that the member is ready to have blessings restored. If he is doubtful of it then it isn't granted. 'Blessing restored' is term used for excommunicated who loose temple blessings and need to apply to 1st Presidency for restoration but if you mean for end of disfellowshipment? then Bishop also plays critical roll in followup on the person and passing on to stake president that they are ready to end the period of disfellowshipment, usually done verbally. 4. Duration is usually 1 year although many are just 6 months. Some are renewed for another year to avoid excommunicating member, especially if a young adult but it all depends on stake president or bishop when its handed out. Also disfellowshipment can only occur as part of formal church discipline where a disciplinary council is held either by bishopric or stake high council, depending on case. Women almost always done by bishopric and MelqPriesthood usually done by stake although Bishopric can disfellowship an elder/HP; bishops can't excommunicate elders/HP though.