LionHeart

Baptism, and celestail marriage. Baptism because this signifies that you are willing to make the covenant that you will live the laws of God. And celestail marriage because there are things a man learns after marriage that He cannot learn anywhere else. A marriage can be, and is a test in and of itself. But it is an abomination to the Lord for people to co-habit with whoever they feel like and spread their seed unscrupulously. Therefore, there are covenants made between man and wife. L.H.

He would have had to do His "temple ceremonies" on Earth; otherwise he could not have recieved a resurrection. However, like John Taylor said, it is not the place of the ordinance that matters, but the ordinance itself. In other words, it did not nessecarily have to take place in a temple. But the fact that He insisted on being baptized should be proof enough that He knew He needed to fit in with the laws. Jesus was able to make His choice in the pre-mortal existence just the same as we were. We carry our pre-mortal character with us when we come to this Earth. Ever notice how two different newborn babies can have two entirely different personalities? They have not yet been influenced by any worldly traditions yet so why are they so different? It's because they brought their pre-mortal character with them. How well we do in this life (our second estate) depends alot on how well we did in keeping our first estate. You can tell them apart by how well they do. For example, Abraham must have kept his first estate very well because he also kept his second estate very well. It was in his character. The saviour kept His first estate perfectly, and therefore kept His second estate perfectly. It was in His character as well. The ones who kept their first estate well enough are also referred to as "The Noble and Great Ones" These spirits assisted in the creation of this world and were also assigned to carry out certain tasks here on this earth. So one might ask: what then is the purpose for coming here if keeping the first estate well means someone is going to do well in keeping their second estate? The answer is this: First of all, we came here to recieve a body. The things we can accomplish are greatly limited for a spirit. Secondly, this is the ultimate test. Take king David for example: He was loved by the Lord very much. He had great faith in the Lord all of his life. By this, it is evident that he kept his first estate very well; and yet in spite of his greatness of character, he still gave into temptation and failed to make the highest kingdom. And for others who kept their first estate only on a mediocre level, still have the opportunity to develope their character. So for these people, it might be a little harder to tell how well they are going to do. L.H.

I'm sorry for the confusion. The Heavens operate on a patriarchal system. In other words, we are subject to our Father in Heaven. And He, in turn is subject to His Father in Heaven. We are not, however, subject to our Uncle in Heaven; as He would be stepping on the toes of our Father in Heaven. The glory of God is directly proportional to His family. In other words, if we live worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, we actually add to the Glory of our Father in Heaven; because we will be permitted to have our own children; thus expanding His family. This is the purpose for the commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother." Which brings up the question: How old do we become before we are no longer subject to this commandment? The answer of course is: Never will we be too old. And since there are literally trillions of us, the patriarchal order extends to the realms of this world. In other words, we will be subject to our earthly parents in the afterlife as well; assuming they lived worthily. If not, we become subject to the next worthy patriarch. Hence the LDS belief that families are eternal. Jesus has attained to the state of full Godhood so far as His children are concerned; as they are subject unto Him. We are also subject unto Him because our Father in Heaven has placed Him in that position. Hence the saying "Respect your elders." And I imagine we will always regard Him in that capacity. But His atonement will last throughout the course of this world; thus encompassing all who are born into this world; but our appreciation for it, and the effects of it, will last forever. This world has been allotted a certain amount of time. Eventually it will have run it's course; also known as "the winding up scene"; at which point, life as we know it on this world will cease. The wicked will be destroyed, and the righteous will be taken to Heaven in the same manner as the city of Zion was taken from the Earth. Following this time, all souls who did not commit the sin against the Holy Ghost, will come forth in the second resurrection. All those who lived worthy of a first resurrection will already have recieved that and will be assisting in the winding up scene. Once it is finished, everyone will move on to their respective exaltation. Those who lived worthy of attaining to Godhood will have came forth in the first resurrection and already have started a family; Jesus included. However, everyone must wait until this world has run it's course to offer assistance to their heavenly family before they can go out and acquire their own worlds. However, they can begin preparing a population for their worlds as soon as they come forth in the first resurrection. L.H.

I was under the impression that to "become a god" you needed to preform certain temple ceromonies that would require a body, and a temple...How did Jesus become a "god" in "pre-mortal existence" without preforming these, if that is true? Josh B) He did not become a God in it's fulness but a God so far as this world is concerned. The difference being that he reigns over this world only; taking care of it for His Father. This is the result of keeping His first estate so perfectly. If He was a God in it's fulness, He would have many worlds, and possibly a different Son to assist in taking care of each one of them. But that will take place only when this world has completed it's course. L.H.

Excellent question. This goes into some very deep doctrine, and is literally incomprehensible to our mortal minds. Therfore, there is no official explanation of it. However I have studied and thought about it alot and the only thing I can think of is that our understanding of the word "eternity" is different from the Lord's. When we think of eternity, we have a linear perspective of it. In other words, we are only cabable of comprehending a past that continues forever into the past, and a future that continues forever into the future; or basically a linear perspective. However, as rediculous as it may sound, I wonder if heaven is a "singular existence." Meaning the time we left and the time we return occur at the same time. Nothing really happens on any particular time line but the existence merely consists of all things. This may be how the Lord knows what is going to happen in the future, because from His perspective it has already happened, and is going to happen, and is happening. And when He says that the closest thing to the time reckoning of Heaven is 1000 years on Earth to 1 year in Heaven, He says that because from our perspective, with that time ratio, time would almost seem to stand still. But we cannot comprehend an existence without a timeline. Therefore He had to liken it to something we could understand. A few months ago, the Traveler made a post stating that our universe is a four dimentional universe; in which, any given point is at the edge of the universe as well as at the center of the universe. Or in other words, "omnipotent". This particular world, however, is three dimentional. It is hard for a three dimentional mind to comprehend a four dimentional existence. Let alone a singular existence. But this is just my minuscule capacity of understanding attempting to comprehend something that it is literally incapable of comprehending. Are you confused yet? I think I just blew a few fuses myself. I just know that Snow is going to have a hay-day with this one. L.H.

Our first estate took place in our pre-mortal existence. As we all know, Lucifer aspired to the position of Savior of this world, but his plan was rejected. Therefore, he rebelled against the Almighty and led away a part our Father's children. All of those who followed after Lucifer, were never permitted to come to this Earth and recieve a body. All those who followed after our Father in Heaven were. But there were many degrees in the faithfulness in which people followed after the Lord. This is our first estate, and how perfectly we kept it. Jesus was more faithful in Following after our Heavenly Father than anyone else, therefore He kept His first estate more perfectly. L.H.

No, because the perfection in which He kept His first estate, earned Him the position of Godhood over this world. He is still acting within His Father's family. And if we are faithful enough in living the laws of God, we too will assist in the "winding up scene" of this world. And once this world has completed it's course, Jesus and all the others who were faithful unto the end, will move on to begin their own Heavenly families, and acquire worlds of their own, and be Gods of their own familes and worlds. But they will always be subject to the laws of Heaven. L.H.

Allow me to explain the bigger picture: God the Father, was once a man. He earned His salvation on another world by submitting Himself to the laws His Father in Heaven laid out for Him. When He attained to a state of Godhood, He was still subject to those laws His Father in Heaven laid out for Him; and likewise His "GrandFather" in Heaven, and on up into eternity. Meaning all Gods are subject to the laws of Heaven. Our Father in Heaven, upon attaining to a state of Godhood, began to produce offspring; "spirit chidren". The first of which is Jesus Christ; and all of us were born afterwards. Jesus, because He kept His first estate more perfectly than the rest of us, was given this world; as His Father has many more worlds than just this one. So our times to come here were alotted us, as well as Jesus' time. So Jesus, being responsible for this world, and out of His great love for his younger brothers and sisters, could see that a price was going to be required in order that we would all have the opportunity for salvation. Thus, He stepped in to pay that price. Keep in mind, all of this took place before this world was even created. He would have come to this Earth and recieved a body whether He volunteered to be our Saviour or not. His willingness to pay that price did not, by any means, releive Him of any obligations to abide by the laws of Heaven; but only increased the need for Him to abide by those laws even more perfect than ever. Just the same as a police officer is held to a higher standard when it comes to abiding by civil laws. I hope this helps you to better understand my point of view. L.H.

Let me fill you in on what Brigham Young had to say on this topic: "Then, can you by process of reasoning or argument, tell whether it was an apple that bore the first seed of an apple, or an apple seed that made the first apple? Or, whether it was a seed of a squash that made the first squash, or a squash that bore the first squash seed? Such abstruse questions belong to the philosophy of the world; in reality there never was and never will be a time when there was not both the apple and the apple seed." This doctrine is consistent with the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follett discourse and the discourse he gave on the 16th of June 1844 L.H.

Not so. The Holy Ghost is a God and member of the Godhead, yet he is a personage of spirit who can't possibly be married according to D&C 132...or as you said...according to LDS theology. Jesus was a God before his mortal birth as well. I don't necessarily think all the "rules" that apply to us have to apply to "them." Now I just sit back and wait for the misunderstanding to pour in. :) You are right, the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, who cannot be married, however, the Holy Ghost, although He is a member of the Goddhead, is governed by the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh and bones, but Jesus did come down and recieve that. Therefore, if He was to be a true example unto us, He would have had to fit in with the laws His Father in Heaven had for Him. Otherwise, how could He expect us to do the same? Wasn't one of His purposes for coming to this Earth to be a perfect example to us? So to sum it all up, "there is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven, upon which all blessing are predicated. And if someone is to recieve a blessing at the hand of God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." If there are certain laws that must be obeyed in order to attain to the level of Godhood, Jesus, and God the Father must have become subject to those laws. For this law is "irrevocably decreed in Heaven." And to add my personal opinion on the Holy Ghost, I believe that the Holy Ghost is not any one particular personage; I believe it is an office which is held by many personages. Much the same as Elias is an office and not any one particular person. Ever wonder what the deal is with Guardian Angels? I believe that office and the Holy Ghost are one and the same. But don't ask for a source, because that is my personal opinion. I hope I didn't misunderstand your post. If so, please clarify. Thanks. L.H.

Because God is our creator. Why would he be subject to the laws he gives us? We are in different spheres, God is God and we are mere humans. Why would the created expect the creator to be our equal? M. I do see your point, but according to LDS theology, God was once a man. And in order for Him to progress to the point where He is, He had to become subject to the Laws which His Father in Heaven laid out for Him. True, Jesus is the Son of God, but I will get to that.

If evidence was ever uncovered that Jesus was, undoubtedly, not married, I doubt it would have much affect on the belief in LDS theology, but only require us to consider other possibilties; such as: perhaps he was given wives after he ascended to His Father, or perhaps He already had wives before He came on this Earth; considering He had already attained to a state of Godhood before he came here. The latter possibility, combined with the teachings of Joseph Smith included in one of the other threads, however, opens up an entirely different can of worms of other possibilities. L.H.

I would say that it is a bit grey so far as "Offical Belief" is concerned, but when you take the teachings of Joseph Smith and compile them together, you come to this conclusion: Moses 1: 35 In the heavens there are many worlds. Discourse given by Joseph Smith, June 16 1844: In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through -- Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, its sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth.----If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. From this we gather that God the Father also has a Father. King Follett Discourse, delivered by Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844: God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret." "The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible." "You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,--namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,--from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." So to put it all together, Gods exist from eternity to eternity. There is an eternity of Gods and an eternity of worlds. But for us, we have but one God to be concerned with. As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become. We also have the opportunity to progress to the condition of Godhood. Now here's where the grey area comes in: This doctrine would suggest that God has an eternity of progress ahead of Him; and always will. It is common LDS teaching that he does not; that He is progressed as far as anyone can progress. So I suppose it depends on who you ask. But if one was to take the teachings of Joseph Smith seriously, they would have to agree that God still has the ability to progress. "I am alpha and omega, I am from everlasting to everlasting, without beginning of days or end of years." If there was an end of progress, how then, could God be from everlasting to everlasting? If there is a beginning, there must be an end. It would be inconsistent with the existence of God if there was a beginning and an end in some things and not in others. If you take a ring for example, it continues around and around for eternity. But if you break it, it now has a beginning and an end. Therefore, if something has a beginning, it must have an end. But it gets quite deep at this point; anything further than this is just downright confusing to think about. I do remember reading somewhere that our mere mortal minds are incapable of comprehending the fulness of the mysteries of Heaven. L.H.

Because she was faithful enough to come to his tomb. Or you could say, she was in the right place at the right time. :) M. Possibly, but the Bible also presents alot of other evidence that Mary Magdalene was favored by Jesus above most other women. Nope, I'm afraid that's all I got. But this is just a personal opinion of mine. I arrive at this opinion because nobody can be ordained to any office without first becoming subject to the rules of that office. How could Jesus, (or God) ask us to obey any commandment which He is not willing to obey Himself. Looking at from this point of view, Jesus MUST have been married. At least according to LDS theology. And according to early LDS theology, he MUST have been married to more than one wife. L.H.

Through the process of elimination. See, obviously Jesus has a Father in Heaven, but I also believe that His Father in Heaven also has a Father in Heaven and on up into eternity. If Jesus was taken away from Heaven on business, so to speak, someone would have to fill in for Him. The most likely candidate is His Father. L.H.

A few thoughts on the subject: first of all, when the LDS church was being persecuted for polygamy, and the leaders of the church were in hiding, they couldn't go to the temple because it was constantly being watched. Therefore, they could not perform marriage ceremonies in the temple without getting caught and drug off to jail. So this question arose about temple marriages to which John Taylor replied "It's not the place of the ordinance that's important, but the ordinance itself." I also believe Jesus was married. I believe he had at least three wives actually; Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Martha. Mary Magdalene is the most obvious one, but the New Testament also talks about Jesus holding a special place in His heart for Mary and Martha as well. Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. Why would He appear first to Mary Magdalene, and not His desciples? Also read: John 11:5 Luke 10: 38-42

I will add my thoughts on this subject; as rediculous as some might think they are. First of all, I agree with A.K. when he says that the six days represent six time periods. Although, I too am unsure of how long these time periods would have been. It is important to note that in the Pearl of Great Price, it says that Kolob is the closest body to the residence of God, and that the time reckoning of Kolob is also the closest to the time reckoning of God; which is one thousand to one Earth years; and not the actual reckoning of God. I believe that Kolob is a planet in our solar system. I also believe that the universe works in a patriarchal order; all the way from atoms to solar systems to galaxies.

He does now, and He did before he came to this Earth, but while He was here and while He was in paridise, His Father took over for Him. L.H.

Yes, for those who do repent, whether early on, or lying on their death bed go to a resting place called paradise; where they rest from all cares, and await judgment. It is after this time of rest, and the decision has been made as to where they go, that they finally enter into their respective kingdoms. Remember when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene but told her not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his father. In other words, his time in paradise was not yet complete. Of course Jesus had no need to be judged, He spent His time there teaching the gospel to those who had not the opportunity to recieve it; among which were people all the way from the beginning of the world. L.H.

Yes Dr.T, I believe that God, who resides in the Celestial kingdom, lives a lifestyle worthy of that kingdom. If we desire to reside in his presence, we too, must submit to a lifestyle worthy of that kingdom. Even though someone is a downright evil person, he can change. And if he puts forth enough effort to making that change and gets to the point where his lifestyle is worthy of a celestial glory, he will recieve that glory. Consider the apostle Paul. He was one of the Church's most dire persecutors. But after the angel came and set him straight, he made a complete 180 and became one of the great prophets of the bible. And I don't doubt that he attained a celestial glory regardless of his persecuting the church. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin against the holy ghost; which is basically knowingly sinning, or openly rebelling, and not repenting or turning away from it before the end of this life. But if we waste our time, and repent on our death bed, our character will not be perfected enough to be worthy of a celestial glory. Although our sins will be forgiven, we will attain a lesser glory. L.H.

Hello Desire, if you read in the Pearl of Great Price, in Joseph Smith's History, you will find a story that will answer your question; the highlights of which are as follows: When Joseph Smith had recieved his first vision, he was instructed to join none of the churches. But he was not given instructions on what he should do. Some years had gone by and he gave in to various temptations; temptations which he knew were wrong in the eyes of God. Now consider his situation: He knew his redeemer lives for he saw Him in person. He did not need to depend on faith for he knew. And with this knowledge, he knowingly sinned against the Almighty. If anyone could be condemned, it would have been him. So reflecting on his actions, and feeling condemned, he decided to pray and ask his Father in Heaven to manifest his standing before him. It was then that the angel of Moroni appeared to him and showed him where the plates were. So even though he had knowingly commited sin, he still maintained his position as a prophet of God. This life is an opportunity for personal progress. In the end, it's not about what we have done, but who we have become. Most sins are forgivable. Somebody who was capable of commiting terrible sins, and perhaps did so ten years ago, may have improved upon their character to the point that it would be impossible for them now. And this is what we are judged by; regardless of whether the sin was commited in ignorance or knowingly. It all boils down to what we have used our time for. Did we use it to become a better person; or did we squander it on greed and selfishness? I hope this helps. L.H.

I think a good way to sum up this statement would be to say "Don't expect someone else to live up to certain standards if you are not willing to live up to those same standards yourself." L.H.

This reminds me of something a friend once told me. He said that he was attending a religion class at B.Y.U. and the professor held up the KJV bible and said to his students "Any of you can give me any principle; any principle you can think of, and I can prove it correct with this book..But, I will also prove it wrong with this same book." So in other words, you can read scripture all you want, but you will not have the true understanding of them if you don't read them with the right spirit. Yes, truth, for the sake of truth, is a worthy goal in and of itself, but there are so many interpretations of truth. All of them could not be the real one. The only way to get the real one is through the spirit of God. He is the one who knows all truth. But He's not going to give it to anyone who has no intentions of living it; regardless of whether they like it or not. That's my point of view anyway. L.H.

And if this is the real question, it would give a motive to strive to be perfect, if one wanted to be in the presence of God. L.H.

One point I might mention that has relevance to this O.P. is the fact that one of the reasons Jesus performed miracles was to prove that He is the Messiah. The fact that He could perform those miracles was proof enough to make so that the pharasees, when they got to the other side, could not say "We didn't know!" But they rejected Him because of the position it would have put them in if He was right. So basicly, it comes down to the fact that they knowingly crucified their God to maintain their political power on this Earth. When Jesus said: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." He was praying for the Romans, not the pharasees. Because the pharasees knew darn well what they were doing. But for those who believed, the miracles established the basic evidence, and the faith was built thereon. But there were also those who were not witnesses to the miracles and therefore were required to rely solely on the testimony of others; at least until they were blessed with a testimony of their own; which I believe everyone can get if they want it enough to put forth the effort to get it. And the strength of it will be directly proportional to the amount of effort they put forth to get it. So to put it all together, some people require evidence, and some don't. It just depends on how great their faith is. L.H.