lattelady

It certainly could also be a logical inference that Jesus, when He spoke of "suffering", was referring to the suffering of the cross that He was about to endure. The coming suffering upon the cross caused Him to tremble and "bleed at every pore." He was saying that He was enduring the suffering of the cross (that would affect him body and spirit) so that we would never have to taste eternal death. But if we would not repent, we would have to experience death.

Vanhin, what do you make of scriptures that say Christ was crucified FOR OUR SINS?

Vanhin, Christ BLED on the cross as well. So, it is not a LOGICAL inference. It might be logical to you, because you believe it to be so. It can't be demonstrated from scripture to be true. I was reading the verses in the Gospel of Luke today that speak of Jesus in the Garden and they don't say that He bled from every pore. They say that his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. It doesn't mention "every pore". Scriptures DON'T say that Christ bled from every pore to ATONE for our sin. You certainly can't make that claim. You can believe it, if you want to, but it isn't a logical inference, demonstrated to be true.

Pam, why is someone that is wanting a question answered with factual proof accused of using "tactics"? Wouldn't you ask the same thing of someone who brought something before you that you didn't understand or didn't agree with?

I'm trying to find the origin of the teaching. That's all. I'm not really interested in personal opinion, rather, the origin of the teaching. If D&C 19 is it, and then Prophets and Apostles have merely expounded on those verses then so beit. But because D&C 19 is not a clear teaching on atonement for sin, I was hoping for more. The LDS church has truths in addition to what "mainline Christianity" holds to. Mainline Christianity would say that the atonement for sin was done entirely on the cross. So, it would seem that the Garden atonement is an additional truth that the LDS church has, because of revelation to one of its prophets. That is why I was looking for which prophet the revelation came through.

Vanhin, Thanks for your post. Unfortunately, it's not plain, and the D&C scripture is not the answer to my question. Pam has actually mentioned in an earlier post that she, herself, has searched for more information on the subject and has come up empty. Others have also stated that scripture that speaks to this teaching is "thin". And I understand that. Still others have said that it is the teaching of Prophets and Apostles that have given the Church its understanding on this doctrine. These verses on their own do not definitively support what you are saying--that Jesus atoned for sin in the Garden. Prophets' and Apostles' teachings seem to, on their own, support the teaching. Which is why I finally asked who was the first prophet to reveal this teaching. Was it Joseph Smith, then?

One more verse that I think emphasizes the importance of focusing solely on the cross as the place of greatest importance when it comes to our sin's atonement: Galatians 6:14 "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

Pam, I wasn't trying to be condescending. I'm sorry if you felt that way--it was not my intention. I asked, in my original post, for someone to show me where the "atonement in Gethsemane" teaching comes from. I have yet to see it. I'm sorry that it's getting old--I'm not trying to upset anyone or beat a dead horse. It is your right, as a Church, to teach that Jesus atoned for sin someplace other than the Cross. Your canon of scripture would seem to say something else, and that is what I'm struggling with. If my questions are getting old, you don't have to respond to me. I will understand if you don't want to talk about it anymore. I would still like to understand, though. Maybe someone else would be willing to help me understand it.

In Mosiah 3:7, it speaks of his anguish over the wickedness and abominations of his people. He anguished over their wickedness, and blood came out of his pores. It doesn't say that he was atoning for their sin (their wickedness and abominations); it says he was anguishing over their sin so much that blood came out of his pores. D&C 19:16-19 says that He suffered the things that He suffered for ALL so that we would not have to suffer if we would repent. And if we don't repent of our sins, we will suffer just as He did--the kind of suffering that caused God, who was the greatest of all, to tremble from pain and bleed from every pore. These verses don't speak of atonement for sin, either, do they? They speak of intense suffering, which we both agree happened in the Garden. It was in the D&C that I could find several other scriptures that spoke of Christ being CRUCIFIED for our sins.

I hope you will understand my confusion on this issue. As I've said before, I'm not trying to be obstinate. I have been told before how important it is to stick to the canon of scripture. As I look through scripture, I see the cross being taught as the place of atonement. Somewhere along the line, the teaching of the Garden atonement came into being, and many LDS believe that is the place where the atonement took place. A revelation must've come on this subject, as have come on other doctrines of the church. Did Joseph Smith teach it? It wouldn't seem so; but I can't seem to find the Prophet through which the revelation came. Clearly our beliefs differ. I'm trying to understand yours.

Many LDS seem to believe that Jesus atoned for sin in the Garden. I was hoping that someone could shed light on where that teaching originated--with which Prophet.

I continue to assert that nowhere in scripture do I find that Jesus atoned for sin in the Garden, or that His Garden Atonement is the "power of God", or that we should glory in the Garden atonement. Rather, I find that He atoned for sin on the Cross of Calvary, that we should glory in the cross, and that the cross is, to us which are saved, the power of God.

Justice, I realize that the Trinity is a difficult doctrine, but the Bible still teaches it, and I still believe it and accept it by faith.

Dear Justice, Thankyou for taking time to post an answer. To be completely honest with you, your answer went to the heart of why I have such a hard time with this teaching. You said, "If the cross were his greatest suffering, then his suffering was no different than the thousands of others who died in the same manner." Do you really believe that? I believe that if the cross of Christ is made less significant, His gospel is made less significant. 1 Corinthians 1:17 & 18 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, LEST THE CROSS OF CHRIST SHOULD BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the POWER OF GOD."

Flyonthewall, I agree with you--as I mentioned before--that Jesus suffered in the Garden. He suffered immensely. Nowhere, though, in D&C 19 does it say He bore our sins, or took upon Himself our sins or atoned for the sins of the world IN THE GARDEN. It does say in more than one place in the Doctrine and Covenants that he was CRUCIFIED for the sins of the world. The Garden was a place of intense suffering. The cross was where he shed blood and DIED so that we wouldn't have to--if we would accept His free gift of eternal life by faith. My belief is that the Garden itself has no eternal significance for us. The cross at Calvary has eternal significance (it is EVERYTHING) to our salvation. I believe scripture supports this.

I've been searching in the LDS scriptures and found verses like these: D&C Section 21:9 "For, behold, I will bless all those who labor in my vineyard with a mighty blessing, and they shall believe on his words, which are given him through me by the Comforter, which manifesteth that Jesus was CRUCIFIED by sinful men FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, yea, for the remission of sins unto the contrite heart." ***Why doesn't it mention Gethsemane as the atoning place, if Gethsemane was a part or the integral part (whichever one one believes) in the atonement for sin? D&C Section 35:21 "I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was CRUCIFIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am on in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one." D&C Section 53:2 "Behold, I, the Lord, who was CRUCIFIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, give unto you a commandment that you shall forsake the world." D&C Section 54:1 "Behold, thus saith the Lord, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, even he who was crucified for the sins of the world--"

Bytor, you don't have to be sorry. I'll keep looking and researching. If anyone knows, let me know!

Bytor, thanks for your thoughts... Do you know, though, to whom the revelation came regarding Gethsemane's atonement?

Which prophet was the first to teach the LDS church about Jesus' Garden atonement?

Will you see Gethsemane, or Golgotha?

Prodigal_son, I would LOOOOOVE to go to Israel one day. Oh, I hope you take in EVERYTHING you can while you're there--I hope you take tons of pictures. What a gift to be able to go. I'd love to see Bethlehem...just to be able to have visuals for all the things we read about in the Bible. Have a wonderful time!

Prodigal_Son, My request is to have some scripture as a basis for the teaching of the atonement being done in the Garden. I believe it is important to my faith, that I can take God at His Word. I find scripture that teaches Christ's atoning work for my sin, and the sins of the world, took place on a cross (Like Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." or Colossians 2:13&14--"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" I'm trying to find scripture that would teach an addition to that (that sins were washed clean in the Garden), and I haven't been able to.

Flyonthewall, Thanks, again. The time you've taken to teach me is appreciated. I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be obstinate, but I'm still having a hard time... I've been told MANY times on this forum that I cannot use quotes from Prophets, church presidents, or Apostles to support doctrine--I must use the canon of scripture that the LDS church agrees is scripture. Is the D&C reference you posted the only one that the prophets you've mentioned expound on? Again, I'm not trying to be irritating. I do thank you for your posts, for being kind and for helping me understand. Lattelady

Flyonthewall, I agree that He suffered greatly in the Garden. The physical response He had to the anticipation of the Cross was proof that He was suffering. So was the prayer He prayed, "if it is possible, take this cup from me." I noticed, as I was studying, that even the Book of Mormon seems to teach that it was upon the cross that He atoned for our sins. "And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world." 1 Nephi 11:33

Thanks, Bytor2112; I didn't say that the LDS church thought Jesus' death on the cross was insignificant. I hope you didn't think that's what I meant. I appreciate the quote you wrote--I still am trying to find scripture that teaches Jesus took our sins upon Himself in the Garden.