lattelady

Traveler, That was my question--I don't believe it to be an odd one, nor do I think I asked it in an odd way--I was simply asking you if you believed Jesus to be imperfect (and in my mind that meant capable of sin). Scriptures says that He was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. Your comment to PrisonChaplain, "I agree Jesus was without sin" answers my question. If a person thinks that Jesus is capable of sinning, then He could not take our place on the Cross as a perfect (blameless) substitute, and could not save us. If a person were to insinuate that Jesus was capable of sin, that would make Him incapable of being my Savior (so I wanted to understand what it was you were saying). Your question, "How could Jesus die on the cross if he was perfect?" makes little sense to me. From my point of view I would ask you, "How could Jesus die on the cross if he WASN'T perfect? What difference would it have made?" What does it mean, to you, to "descend below perfection?" I am sorry that you were hurt by Evangelicals--hurt badly. I wondered why you seem to react so strongly to me; I hope you don't base your beliefs about Evangelical Christians on that experience, though I can see how it'd be hard not to. I've simply tried to understand where you're coming from, and understand the basis for your faith.

Traveler, Another point at which we will disagree is: you're saying Jesus was pointing people to the Father and saying, "Be perfect, as My Father is perfect"--I agree. But you're saying THAT somehow proves that even Jesus Himself isn't perfect/flawless--only God is. I believe that the Word of God teaches that Jesus IS God. "I and the Father are one." If you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father (they are ONE). Jesus is God made man, God come down to Earth. God's Son, and God, all at the same time. The Trinity. It is hard to fathom; but to insinuate that Jesus was not perfect is a pretty serious accusation, to me. It questions His diety. Again, even the Jews understood that He was claiming to be God, and wanted to stone Him.

One line of your post rings untrue to my understanding of the gospel message: (I'll also quote the line previous to it for context) "But works are a way of applying what Christ did so eternal life is possible, or so that you can become a son of God. THE WORD 'become' IS NOT A FREE GIFT HERE, OR ELSE ALL WOULD BECOME." That is not true. Let's consider an illustration: when Bath and Body Works sends out coupons in the mail (I got one just recently) for free product, up to a certain $ amount value, they are coupons for free product. I usually go in and get anti-bacterial handsoap, or lotion. It's free! I love it. Does everyone who receives the coupon automatically receive products? NO. They all get coupons, yes. But until they redeem them, they don't become "free gift recipients." Many people think the coupon is a waste of their time and they chuck it in the garbage. They don't want it. Many people do the same thing with the free gift of grace that Jesus holds out. That is why the Bible says, "BUT TO AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to them gave He the right to become sons of God, even to them who BELIEVED on His name." He died for ALL men, but they must ACCEPT, RECEIVE the gift in order for it to belong to them, in order to possess it! Scripture is pretty clear that all will not become, because MANY will refuse the free gift. Many will reject God. We BECOME a son of God because He holds out a free gift and we accept it. Not everyone is a son of God. Not everyone is a child of God.

Lostsheep, They used wine because during the Last Supper, Jesus taught His disciples to remember Him using bread as a symbol of His body that was going to be broken, and then it says, "Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of the FRUIT OF THE VINE from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." (Matt.26:27-29). So, to this day we still use juice from the "fruit of the vine", whether it be wine or grape JUICE--either way it is still juice from the fruit of the vine, just as Jesus used--symbolizing the blood that He would shed. Communion is such a beautiful thing that we practice in church today: out of obedience to Jesus and reverence for Him and deep gratitude for what He did. I've prayed, at times in my life, that God would protect the preciousness of the practice in my own mind and heart; because, I know that anything that is done repetitively has a tendency to become something I do from wrote memory--following instruction, but not engaging in the true meaning. I think it is awesome that you're learning about Sacrament so that the meaning of it will be all the more precious to you the next time you take it.

Dear Mr. Armstrong: So you would like to go to the moon, would you? Well, you can't earn your way there. The trip there is far too expensive--you'd never make enough in your LIFETIME to afford it. Seriously, no matter how hard you work, no matter how hard you try, no matter how smart you are, no matter how hard you practice jumping, you'll never get close enough to the moon under your own power. But... We've already paid your way. If you can set aside your desire to pilot the shuttle yourself, which will mean forfeiting your own will and taking the route you might have wanted to take--trusting that we know the best way--WE WILL TAKE YOU to the moon. Regards, The National Aeronautic and Space Administration Possible responses: 1) Dear NASA: I hear what you're saying, but I really don't want anyone's help. I think I actually CAN train myself to jump high enough. I've been working on my leg muscles EVERY single day, and my vertical leap is growing by the week. I've been taking courses on getting to the moon, reading books on getting to the moon, attending lectures on the subject; I'm also doing fundraisers so that I can get enough money to fund the trip. Thankyou for your concern, but I think I'm well on my way. Sincerely, Neil Armstrong 2)Dear NASA: I can hardly believe my eyes! Why would you pay my way? I don't deserve it...I've always wanted to go to the moon, it's true, but I do not deserve this gracious favor! For years I've tried and tried to do everything I could to get to the moon on my own, but I can see now that it's no use. I'm no closer now than I was before, and without you I don't think I'd ever have hope of getting there. This seems too good to be true! But I'm going to take you up on the offer! I feel like my "thankyou" is not nearly enough. Until I get the call saying it's time to go, I'll get busy--I'll work hard representing NASA so that people know the kind of administration you are. You're respectable, honorable and exceedingly kind! Man, I love NASA and what they do! When I get back from the moon, I promise to devote my time to NASA as a volunteer--I'll do whatever you ask me to do, and I'll do it free of charge. You deserve that-- you're giving me the gift of a lifetime! All my love, Neil

Also, am I to understand now that "keeping the commandments" (in your thinking) just means remaining loyal to God through trials? And how does this relate specifically to the 2 commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself" ?

Traveler, in reference to one of your earlier posts, you spoke of Christ pre-resurrection and said that many believe that He was without flaw--but that not even Jesus claimed to be without flaw. Where do you get that from? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

Traveler, Your question, are these commandments impossible to live--1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, sould, mind and strength or 2) Love your neighbor as yourself: I believe these commandments are important to follow. God commanded us to. I believe they're possible to follow. God commanded us to. The only PROBLEM is that none of us can keep either of these commandments PERFECTLY, and that is what God requires of us: PERFECTION, in order to stand in His presence. Only ONE kept the commandments perfectly, and that was Jesus. That is why HIS life was sacrificed for the sins of the world. He was the only sinless sacrifice. He was my substitution. I can't keep the Law perfectly. That is exactly why the Law existed--to show mankind that they were incapable of keeping the Law perfectly. Galatians 3:24,25 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." So when we trust in Christ and He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, we learn to die to SELF and walk by the Spirit. Galatians 5:18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." Loving the Lord with everything we've got and loving each other can only be done by the Spirit of God's power THROUGH us--we can't do it in our own strength by TRYING HARD to live right. One question for you, Traveler: Why such a negative reaction toward the concept of our good works reaping rewards ("crowns") that we will in turn give back to Jesus in praise and worship of Him?

Traveler, What I read in your posts, and forgive what I'm about to say as it may seem harsh (understand that your last couple posts have been harsh and judgemental, and I will accept that)--what I read is a pride in what you can do for God. You will work and work and work for the purpose of pleasing God, and with the goal of hearing Him say, "Well done!" I submit to you that pride has no place in the Christian walk. I believe myself to be helpless apart from Christ. You seem to be saying that salvation is by faith alone after all we can do. I say, apart from Him I can do nothing. You seem to be angered by the fact that I will not boast in what I can do; that I will rest in the fact that Christ will work in me "to will and to work according to His good pleasure," and my part is to surrender my old nature and will to Him. Your comments on "crowns" gives me good indication of how you feel about my giving praise and glory to Him for what He does in and through me, rather that what I do and do and do to try and make Him proud, when is ALREADY proud of me, because He sees me as He sees His Son--perfect (positionally, not actually).

Traveler: (you asked me: "Are there any eternal consequences for a believer if they do not keep the commandments?" No. No one CAN keep all the commandments. "Are there any eternal benefits for a believer if they do keep the commandments?" Yes, but then no. I believe we receive rewards ("crowns") for good works that were done, not in our own strength, but in God's strength while on this earth (1 Corin. 3:11-15), but we will turn right around and lay those crowns at Jesus' feet, because we will give Him all the glory for what He has done for us. It was Him that gave us the ability to do good works in the first place. "I will not boast in anything, no gift, no power, no wisdom; but I will boast in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection." There are the answers I guess you've been looking for.

Traveler: Romans 1:16&17--"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is writted, 'BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.'" I see from those verses that in the New Testament (just as the Old!), we are justified by faith. It doesn't say, "The righteous man shall live by the commandments." It is by faith. Romans 9:30-33 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY FAITH; but Israel, pursuing a LAW of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by FAITH, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who BELIEVES in Him will not be disappointed.'" **The people of Israel stumbled over Jesus because He was telling them, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." They wanted to pursue righteousness by keeping the commandments and He was telling them that they had to believe in Him, and it offended them. Galatians 3:10&11 "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is writted, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.' Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, 'The righteous man shall live by faith." I will say AGAIN that I believe we are to seek to live a Christ-like life, not in our own power, but in the strength provided by the Holy Spirit that lives in us when we put our trust in Him for salvation. We should be "zealous for good deeds" as it says in Titus, but not because it earns anything for ME, but because it brings God glory and in doing those good works I live up to the name I bear: Christ-follower. I believe that there is NOTHING I could do EVER to make God love me more than He loves me right this very minute, and NOTHING that I could EVER do that could make God love me any less than He loves me right now.

Misshalfway, the issue of covenants is where we will disagree--understand though, I'm not condeming you! Your beliefs are yours, and my beliefs are mine--both of us believe very strongly, and hold to our faiths, and live a certain way because of our faith. I ABSOLUTELY believe that when Christ came and died He fulfilled the Law and that we are NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW. I believe I am no longer under the law. I don't believe Jesus raised the old covenants to a higher law. I believe that He IS the New Covenant--His blood that was shed for me and you and the whole world holds out the potential for a New Covenant for anyone who accepts it--ETERNAL LIFE. And does that mean that since the Law is abolished that we should just live however we want since we're no longer under the Law? If you read Romans 6, that's what the whole chapter is about! It says, "May it never be!"

Traveler, Issues of forgiveness and and salvation--as I understand scripture, I receive both of those through confession. 1) Forgiveness "If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 2)salvation "If we CONFESS with our mouths Jesus is Lord, and BELIEVE in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. For it is with our hearts that we believe and are justified, and it is with our mouths that we confess and our saved." Rom. 10:9&10 I read your response to my last post and sought to understand it. I especially sought to understand your thoughts and views on "born-again" beliefs--that "salvation to them is 100% selfish." I confess that I don't understand where you're coming from in this regard, and your views seem to generalize people ("born-agains") as "extremely self-centered", "selfish" and unChristlike. I suppose I see how it's easy to predetermine things about others through posts on the internet. It is true that fanatics and people who are judgemental, proud, holier-than-thou, etc. exist in every religious institution. But whatever your thoughts are on the "B-A's" (born-agains) :) , I hope you can hear me out for who I am, and what my beliefs are. My salvation is not 100% selfish (because of my beliefs about salvation, there isn't even a percentage with which to rate it), because it's not AT ALL about what Lattelady can do--it's all about what God chose to do for me when I was helpless and in need of a savior. My relationship with God is Christ-centered--it's focused on what HE did for me (for the whole world)- my praise, my worship is directed solely to Jesus, for who He is and what He has done. I don't think that's selfishness; I owe Him my life! How am I going to boast in that? What did I do to deserve that? What praise or glory could I steal for what only a perfect and Holy One could do? I do believe that in place of my shame, Jesus gave me His righteousness when I trusted in Him. But again, that's a work of GOD in my life, not anything I could get for myself. No praise or glory for Lattelady there either! In the words of one of my favorite songs: "You are my strength when I am weak, You are the treasure that I seek, You are my All in All. Seeking You as a precious jewel, Lord to give up I'd be a fool, You are my All in All. Jesus, Lamb of God, worthy is your Name. Taking my sin, my cross, my shame, rising again I bless Your name, You are my All in All; and when I fall down you pick me up, when I am dry You fill my cup, You are my All in All." He is my EVERYTHING--and I gladly serve Him with my life! I find everything I need IN HIM--but tell me, how is that selfish?

1 John 2:3 & 4--Justice, you said we should address the verses Traveler presented. I will do my best. These verses say that if we know Him we will keep His commandments. It also says that the man who says "I know Him" but doesn't keep His commandments is a liar (that is a Lattelady paraphrase). Do I disagree with these verses? No! But tell me, Traveler. Do you consistently, day-by-day, 24-hours-a-day keep ALL of the commandments? If you do not, are you a liar according to these verses? If we look at these verses in light of all of scripture, I believe we'll come to the conclusion that our life is to be characterized by obedience. None of us is perfect, none of us can keep the commandments perfectly--thus our need for a savior! These verses don't PROVE that in order to secure our salvation we must trust in God AND keep His commandments. They teach that we ought to have keep his commandments if we love him--that His children should have lives characterized by obedience. But again, our SALVATION is by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone--and keeping His commandments should follow.

What about "You will fall like every other ruler?" What does that mean to you?

If Psalm 82:6 is not a "proof text" for men becoming gods, then why is it used so much to bolster that view? The verse doesn't support the "idea of all these needy individuals being gods in embryo" either. Again, do gods fall from godhood? v. 7 says "But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." The context of the chapter is so important.

In an attempt to clarify further to Traveler, or Snow, or Vort or anyone else who is of the assumption that I believe that I have no need to follow Christs commandments, I will tell you a bit more about myself and my testimony. (note: if you don't care, you can stop reading now) :) In reading numerous interesting and enlightening posts since August when I joined LDS.net, I've learned a great deal about many people who I've never met. I've learned that there are other non-LDS posters here that are Christians, and even WE have some differences of belief. You've gathered by now that I'm a "born-again Christian", but prefer just to say Christian--1)because it's shorter :) 2)because I've noticed that many LDS people have a bad taste in their mouths toward Christians who claim "born-again" status. Nonetheless, it doesn't change the fact that I had a physical birth in 1975, and a spiritual birth in 1986. Born again. One difference in beliefs that I may have with other born-again Christians is that I believe I cannot, nor can anyone who is truly a believer, lose my salvation. I believe that when I put my trust in Christ for salvation, I received a deposit (the Holy Spirit) who entered my life/heart (not my physical, beating heart, but my spiritual heart), and that deposit was a guarantee that sealed my eternal inheritance. You might say, "What about someone who 'trust's Christs' and then walks away and denies Him? Do they still go to Heaven?" I believe that someone who walks away and denies Him never TRULY put their faith and trust in what He did for them. He knows those that are His. I also believe that there is such a thing as a person in rebellion, even while a Christian. We call them "backslidden." I, myself, had a period of serious backsliding/rebellion in my teen years. Did I lose my salvation then? I don't believe so! I ignored the Holy Spirit so much, and grieved Him, I'm sure. I didn't talk to God, or read His Word. But I can look back now and see that He was PURSUING ME. He forgives me for those several years of rebellion. How do I know? Because I've confessed them and His Word says, "If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I absolutely believe that we need to follow His commandments BECAUSE He gave them to us to help us walk rightly. He loves us and as our Father, knows what is best for us. And it's how we show our love for Him. It's also how we will keep in step with the Holy Spirit so we won't ignore or grieve Him--we'll walk with Him and He will teach us and guide us. The question remains, is my SALVATION contingent on whether I obey or not? I don't believe that God's word says it is. But I believe God's Word says that obedience is the BEST WAY to SHOW that we believe.

Just to go back to Psalm 82:6, if this were God speaking to men and telling them, "I said 'You are gods';" this passage makes no sense in that context. I would understand if He had said 'You will be gods' or 'You are going to be gods', but none of them, as mere mortals are walking around as gods, unless you're telling me that is what you believe about LDS member today--that they are all gods NOW. The other part that would be confusing is what He goes on to say. "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men;" So, are they gods, or are they men? I believe it's because they are MEN, but not just MERE men, they are rulers, judges, authority that God has divinely appointed. And in the last half of verse 7 He says, "you will fall like every other ruler." Do gods fall?

Snow, Though I cannot find the post in which I saw words added to John 3:16 (making that point moot), that WAS what I was bothered by, concerned with, and it WAS the issue--what "seems" to be the issue, to you, would be irrelevant to what the issue truly was with ME. The fact that I don't choose to answer your questions in regard to "real demonstrable changes (interpolations) to scripture has nothing to do with what I am bothered by. It has everything to do with my desire not to engage in a conversation about the scriptures that I love with someone who is disrespectful to me as a person, my beliefs, my faith, and my intelligence (or possibly your perceived lack thereof) :).

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that this is what I believe: I believe that Jesus died because of the sin that separates every human from Him. Through His death (which was really meant for me--since the "wages of sin is death", and He never sinned), He offers me eternal life. He says to everyone who BELIEVES, they will be called sons of God. He THEN says, "If you love me, keep my commandments." I believe in what He did on the cross, I believe it was for me (a sinner like the rest of the human race), and I accept the gift He is giving of eternal life. Because of my love for Him, I obey Him and keep His commands. Would you want someone to do things for you because they HAVE TO, to get something from you, or would you want someone to do things for you because they love you and want to? I serve Him out of love.

The quote that PastorBob posted above from President Gordon B. Hinckley has honestly confused me. I, as a non-member can (if I want to) bring up quite a bit of information/quotes from a variety of past prophets and church leaders in reference to thoughts like:--"As man now is, God once was;..." Joseph Smith and Brigham young both taught that God was once a man (not anti-mormon jargon, just quotes from former leaders of the LDS church). I don't understand why President Hinckley would have treated the question that way, with so many "I don't know's..." Can anyone answer that for me?

JustAGuy, his retort answers his accusers very well if you understand Him to mean that He is claiming to be God--because He IS God. He is not JUST the Son of God, He is also GOD. (This points to the teaching of the Trinity, but I realize that the LDS church doesn't believe in the Trinity--as in, One God in three persons). It's why He said in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." This is when they picked up stones to kill Him--they understood quite well what He was inferring--He was claiming to be God. God, in Psalm 84 called judges and rulers 'gods', and they were divinely appointed by Him. John 10:35 "If he called them 'gods', unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; v.36--"say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" It absolutely answers his accusers, as He is saying (Paraphrase)--if men can be titled "gods" (as in judges and rulers), how much more should the term be allowed of the One who the Father sent--Jesus; this is understood, in this context, to those who believe Jesus is God. Even the Jews understood that and were angered by it!

For Lilac, Just a quick comment on a couple of Bible scriptures that have been mentioned as supportive of the idea the there are "gods" (more than one God) spoken of in the Bible. I believe the Psalms reference has come up a couple of times (Psalm 82:6), and then one that was from Clark87: John 10:37. Clark87, you mentioned (I believe it was you...I hope I have the right name) that in John 10:37 God mentions different definitions for gods? The scripture actually reads, "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does." Maybe you typed the wrong reference? The Psalm 82:6 is one that seems to be repeatedly taken out of context. This verse is not referring to "gods" in the sense of deities at all. If you read the whole chapter in it's context you'll understand it better. In it, the psalmist is talking about a "great assembly" in heaven that God is presiding over. And during this assembly, He's giving judgment among the "gods." The language of the Old Testament--and in the ancient Near East--rulers and judges were sometimes given the title "god." (Even Pharoahs of Egypt were sometimes referred to this way). God judges them for their partiality to the wicked and unjust. God puts rulers and judges in place, whether they know Him or not. But this verse isn't talking about the reality of many gods (deities to be worshipped); you have to read it in its context.

My point of view might differ from others-- I'm not a member (so you can feel free to leave the advice, or take it). :) I'm not a member of the LDS church, but I consider myself a Christian who has a close relationship with Jesus. I'm also a mom. :) So when I read your post I read it with the same heart as if I were listening to my oldest son (who's just BARELY a teenager) ask the question. I would say to him (and so to you): your relationship with God is the #1 thing in this life. One of the verses of scripture that I think is of utmost importance is in Proverbs 4:23 where it says, "ABOVE ALL ELSE, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.". It also says in 1 Corinthians 15:33 "Do not be misled: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'" I believe that is true! If you're living in a house where you're probably the only one living out your LDS standards, it is possible for you to be pulled down rather then lifted up. But I would also be concerned that your good name might get lumped in with some who get themseves in trouble with women and alcohol (or one or the other). It gives an opportunity for others looking in to say, "There's a houseful of guys who's up to no good!" And even though you're not involved and you live an upright life, it can put a smudge on your good character. I know that others shouldn't judge you based on others' actions, but it's often the way the world is. Anyway, just a few "motherly" thoughts to consider. Good luck, whatever you decide!

It's sortof strange to have people contemplate FOR me what it is I am "distressed" about or "concerned" about--when really I'm neither of the two, and certainly able to tell you what it is you'd like to know, rather than a couple of you hypothesizing about it. It's kindof like having people talk about you when you're in the same room and can hear everything they're saying! :) 1) I absolutely believe that if someone LOVES GOD, they WILL keep His commandments. 2) It's because of what God "assured me" of (His UNCONDITIONAL love)-- "We love Him because He first loved us"--that I love Him and serve Him. His love wasn't just words, as we all know--He loved me enough to die for me. I love Him because of that. Again, Traveler, it seems somewhat disrespectful for you to speak about what I am willing to give or offer before God as a "token" when you know nothing of my faith or relationship with God. The difference between my thoughts on the subject and yours, perhaps, are that my salvation is not contingent upon whether I do good works or keep His commandments. Those things, as have been said MANY times on other threads--come as an outpouring of my love and devotion for One who gave me the gift of salvation that I didn't have to do anything for; and in fact, if I had done something to get it, I wouldn't have been able to receive it. If you have questions about my faith or what I believe, feel free to ask me and I'll do my best to answer.