lattelady

Beefche, I believe that the Bible teaches that each of us were born (because of the Fall of Eve and Adam) with a sin nature. Because of Adam and Eve's decision to sin, every generation after that would be born with an inborn nature to sin/to gratify the flesh/to please self/not to follow after God. I don't believe in an across-the-board age of accountability. I believe that each individual, born in sin, comes to a point of intellectual understanding; and that understanding doesn't have to be great. The Bible says it takes "child-like faith". So even a young child can understand the simple elements of the gospel--that Jesus died for their sin, that He was buried and raised again by the power of God. If they are not able to understand that, they shouldn't be held accountable for what they can't understand. But I wouldn't underestimate what any child can or cannot comprehend and therefore wouldn't put a specific age on it. I haven't seen that in scripture.

What scriptures are you basing the "age of accountability" teaching on? Where does that come from specifically?

Even if I had the couple's name (the SLC former business owners), which I don't because I didn't quickly write it down or anything as I was watching t.v., what would that do for you? If you were able to investigate who they were, you'd either have to take their word for what happened to them personally, or you'd discount what they said on t.v. because you'd see them as anti-Mormon and liars. Many of you have already concluded that you would probably stop giving your business to them if they left the Church; I didn't get the impression, from what they were saying, that they left the church angrily and ripped it to shreds with their words. So I don't know that I would choose to stop going to their store because their spiritual journey was taking them someplace else. No doubt, I would be deeply saddened by their choice; I would even feel personally that they were making the wrong choice. But because of what my husband and I do (my husband is a pastor), I think that continuing to love them and SHOW love to them would be the action I would take. UNLESS they were actively involved in slandering our church or badmouthing us. In that case, I'd try to appeal to them and hope they'd repent and do the right thing. But again, if they simply left our church because their beliefs changed, though I'd feel sorrow for their decision I hope I would not close my heart off to them and purposely steer clear of them.

Do LDS members believe that they/we were born with a sin nature? I'm wanting to fully understand the "age of accountability" belief. Someone earlier said there aren't many ways before age 8 that one could sin. What about kids between ages of 3 and 7 who tell lies? or steal something from someone? or behave selfishly? or hit their sibling or parent out of anger?

Gwen, my daughter (who is now 9) has the exact same issue. Kids at school have said, "What's that?" and pointed at the little bump sticking out beneath her shirt. She just says, "It's my bellybutton, DUH!" It's not herniated. The doctor has checked it thoroughly. It's just that her actual bellybutton skin protrudes. It's a REALLY-outie outie. She's fine with it now. But I suspect that when she's a teenager and is wearing a bathing suit (I'm not talking about a bikini, just a regular bathing suit--because you'd be able to see her li'l bump through it), she'll be self-conscious about it. We will be more than happy to have it corrected. We would do anything we can to help our kids be healthy, happy, welladjusted kids. I don't think that's spoiling them any more than it would be spoiling for us to correct our second oldest son's crooked teeth with braces. It's not mandatory, but boy is it nice to have straight teeth!

Lattelady: honors my former position as a barista at Starbucks. That job taught me sooooo much.

No, nothing on this board gives me that impression. Does that rule out the possibility that it could happen? I wasn't attacking the niceness of anyone on this board. I was asking, though, if the LDS church might recommend to church members, at times, that they pull away from "outsiders" and those who have left the faith, or make it hard for them to flourish in a predominately LDS community.

I don't remember their names, but I might be able to find it if I searched online or something...? I know what you're saying, though, and I agree--not everyone is reputable or honest and sometimes people have ill motives. The other man I was talking about, though, happens to be an acquaintance and my husband knows his story;

I would only be assuming which leaders they were referencing. They didn't say "President Monson"! So I'm guessing it was local leaders. I get the impression that it might be encouraged in certain situations, after hearing it from this couple--they said it was encouraged by church leaders. "Honestly, this question makes me wonder if you know any of us here on this board." What do you mean? That's just the point! I don't know any of you...I'm not close friends with you, I'm just asking a question. This kind of thing has happened, that doesn't mean it's encouraged, but that's what I'm asking.

Just recently my husband and I were watching t.v. and there was a man and his wife who were talking about being business owners in the Salt Lake City area and they were also committed members of the LDS church for decades. They decided at some point, because of doctrinal issues they began to have with the Church, that they must leave the Church. Suddenly, their business began to suffer. They found out that church leadership had been telling their patrons to stop giving business to them. It wasn't long before their family business that they'd run for many years went bankrupt. I asked my husband, in shock, "Do you think that this kind of thing really happens?" He said that he knows that it does. He didn't know how OFTEN it happened, but knew it was true, because a pastor friend who had a church in a small town in Utah was also a rancher. The people in the predominantly LDS town didn't like Bible Church being started there, and they began refusing to do business with him. They wouldn't sell to him and wouldn't buy from him. He couldn't make a living there and was forced to leave. Is this encouraged?

Do you know about the sealing process for those types of marriages? Were they sealed to each person? Or was just the first marriage sealed?

I heard recently about a boy who returned from his mission (not too long ago), and wasn't home long before he committed suicide. He left a note for his family and in it, he said to his mom that he wasn't drinking the "hard stuff", it was only beer. But he hadn't been able to live up to the standards he so wanted to keep. I heard about that and it made me so sad to think that he felt that he wasn't good enough; I don't know what other things he might have been struggling with, but to put that in a suicide note, it had to be weighing heavily on his spirit. I wish he could've known that God didn't demand perfection of him...that He accepted him and loved him. I do believe that God wants us to treat our bodies with honor and respect. We've only got this one body. But God's grace is so much greater than our sin and our bad choices. He is kind. He's more than love-ING, He IS LOVE. That returned missionary was devastated by choices he'd made that he saw as too shameful and too BAD to be honest about until it was too late. I wish he'd known that God didn't see him that way...

A question about sealing AND polygamy: those who practiced polygamy back in the days when it was an active part of the Church's teaching--were the men generally sealed to each of the wives they were in a covenant relationship with? Was it a temple ceremony?

Lots of people have a view of God that He is watching our behavior and every time it is bad, we get a whack from Him (some bad thing happening). I believe that there are natural consequences to sin. But scripture doesn't support the idea of God "spanking" us for every infraction. Yes, He desires obedience. But the Bible says it's "His kindness that leads us to repentence." Sometimes He allows us to experience the tough consequences of sin and the deeper we descend into that isolation and unhappiness because of our choices, we get to the end of our rope. We realize that life walking close to God is BETTER than walking alone. He LOVES us. He's not vengeful and cruel. He knows what's best for us, but won't force us to choose that.

"the Gospel DECEPTIVELY simple"? What do you mean by that?

Don't you think that there is a "bottom line" at which Christ will be the judge of who truly believes and who does not--and is therefore worthy of eternal life? If works were the basis by which we were saved, how many are enough? 5 good works? 10? 1000 for a lifetime? What if a person only lived to age 15? What if there were lots of sins mixed in with the good works? My point is, there are many variables and they don't matter; the one thing that seems to matter according to scripture is coming to God through His Son Jesus "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life--no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." And it's our faith in Him--not a belief in the mental sense ("I know there is a God"), but a true heart belief, an acknowledgement that Christ is who He says He is (the Son of God, God made flesh), and that He did what He said He did, and can DO what He says He can do--for ME!.--it's that faith that can save me: faith in the work He finished for me--His death, burial, and raising from the dead by the power of God. It really strikes me every time I think about Jesus hanging on the cross with two criminals beside him; and one of the criminals recognizes Jesus for who He really is--not just some good man, or a great teacher, or just another criminal like himself, but God's Son, when he said, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42,43) I love those verses because that criminal would die that day. How much time did he have to do "good works" to earn his salvation? How many good works did he do so that his salvation would be secure? How would he prove to Jesus that his faith was real? Because Jesus knew His heart, like He knows the hearts of all men. That's why He can say, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:9,10 We are justified before God because He knows our hearts. Our belief is not a work. Our belief is what God can see by looking into our hearts. The good works that we do as a byproduct of our faith are what others can see. God sees, the very moment we put our trust in Him, that we believe and take Him at His word. We're saying: I believe You, God! I trust You! I don't believe those are works any more than trusting my husbands vows to me on our wedding day would be works.

I do agree with the LDS teaching/Bible teaching that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived. I don't believe that God was the literal father (whether by physical means, or by miraculous i.v.f., or any other literal means). I believe what the Bible teaches: Matthew 1:20 "But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her IS FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT." What there only one prophet, and I know it was long ago, that made comment about Jesus being conceived by physical relations between Mary and God? (someone had an earlier post about a sunday school class where two people defended their beliefs about that because of the teachings of some "long dead prophet." ) Do you know if it was just one prophet's point of view?

What answers, ideas, or beliefs were being provided in the statement, "I believe, Brother, I believe! Praise, hallelujah!" ? It's interesting: that's the kind of interactions I used to experience in jr. high and highschool, growing up in Utah as a non-member, when someone would find out I wasn't part of the Church. We'd become involved in a doctrinal debate and there'd always be two or three (or more) against one (me) making comments similar to the ones made back and forth earlier in this thread. Those of you who talk to others that way (as adults), just know that you've probably taught that attitude, inadvertantly, to your children. They bring it to school and think it's acceptable to treat other "outsiders" that way.

Hmmm. That's a good point. I don't believe that the role of prophet is for today, but if I did, I wonder how far I would go in obeying him? God, back in Old Testament times led people into war and asked them (the Israelites) not to spare ANYTHING--in other words, kill EVERYTHING. That would've been hard. But He expected complete obedience. I guess the point I was trying to make was that God asked prophets like Hosea to do some really odd things (like marry a prosititute), and even after they were married and she left him for a client, God told Hosea to buy her back. I'm sure Hosea himself didn't even understand why he had to do it. It didn't make him less credible as a prophet. He had to walk by faith. The people who heard his prophetic words had to believe that he was hearing from God and respond accordingly. If I believed that prophets were for today, I would have to put them to the test: if, when they spoke God's words, those things came to pass, I would trust them. If they didn't, I would say they were a false prophet.

So is your point that if God tells the prophet to do something really strange, or to say something really strange, then it probably didn't come from God? That point wouldn't be very well taken with most people who follow a prophet. Or God's Word, the Bible. It typically defies man's logic. There are MANY examples of prophets in the Old Testament who were told by God to do some pretty bizarre things. If those things had caused the people to say, "Look at them! They're odd ducks! I'm not listening to them! I don't trust the source," those people would've been in a world of hurt--probably literally. God made the donkey. He can certainly command it to do whatever He pleases, even if it looks impossible to man.

I am one of the "born-again" believers that you speak of, that someone earlier kindof poked fun at, "I believe, I believe, praise hallelujah!" Yep. That's me. You challenged us to find some verses that tell us there's nothing we have to do, or that tell us we don't have to keep the commandments. I believe that scripture says that if we love Him, we WILL keep His commandments (John 14:15)--but I believe just that; I try to keep His commandments out of my love for Him, not as a way of earning my salvation. Titus 3:4,5a "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." Romans 4:1-5 "What shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God ("I believe, I believe, praise, hallellujah!), and it was credited to him as righteousness.' Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

I LOVE brussell sprouts--I grew up eating a ton of them--and cooked cabbage. I really, really love it when we go to Cracker Barrell nowadays with our kids and the veggie of the day is cooked cabbage. Comfort food! (That'd be another good 'General thread'!).

Sometimes I have dreams ( I guess they're dreams/nightmares) just as I'm drifting off to sleep I get sucked into them and I get sucked into a place that feels terrifying and I want desperately to wake up, but I can't. I try to scream, or reach out and grab my husband, but I'm paralyzed. I HATE these kind of dreams. Finally, sheerly by forcing myself out of it, I'm able to wake up, and I don't want to go back to sleep for fear it will happen again. Does anyone else have those kinds of dreams?

Connie, I loved those lines from the movie. So great to think about... I've sometimes found myself feeling like "I've forgotten how to pray," or found myself afraid that praying has become just one more thing on my checklist of things to do. But it's not. I know it's a lifeline. I agree with what's already been posted: the posture of my body is less important than the condition of my spirit--is it humble? And for me, I have to ask myself: am I really being HONEST with God about whatever it is I'm praying about or for? Sometimes I try to make everything sound so perfect instead of just being vulnerable and recognizing: He already knows my heart--He just wants the truth from me. I'm learning to love prayer for what it's teaching me about Him, not for what I get from Him. He's so good!

mnn727, thanks for being honest--that's what I was wondering--not because I want to start a fight over it. I appreciate your willingness to answer me. It was kind. The question I have is: when a prophet makes a statement, and members follow it, and then a new prophet comes and says, "The current revelation is _______", does the entire Church agree and know to follow the current prophet, or are there some that say, "No, I still believe the former prophet's words are to be upheld" ? Mnn727, you've answered what I kindof knew was true, even though I felt like others were saying, "No, that's not true", that there are some that still believe the former (even if it wasn't a FORMAL doctrine, it was an idea that some might have gotten from a prophet's words). I may have drawn that conclusion, had I heard those words back then; there's no way for me to know that now.