lattelady

Maybe the wording is different, but I'm wondering if what you're asking is if his faith is really his own, rather than just adopting the "family faith." I'm not LDS, but grew up in a home where our faith (having a relationship with God) was something that was a part of everything we did. I saw it in my parents lives continually. My dad is a pastor and so I grew up in the church and everything we did seemed to center around church. I felt very comfortable in that environment, and as an adult now, I know that I relied on THEM for my faith. I let them carry me along, so to speak. I hadn't made my faith my own. It wasn't until our family moved from the midwest to Utah and I was going to school primarily with kids of LDS faith who would ask me about my faith that I had to learn to ask myself, "DO I believe this because my mom and dad believe it, or do I believe it because I find it to be the truth for myself? Is it my family's faith, or my own?" I began digging into scripture on my own, and over the years, the simple faith I'd found at the age of four grew in understanding. It was my own. It can happen in ANY denomination that children rely on the faith of their parents, without knowing what they truly believe. I see in quite a bit in Utah because the LDS faith has such a strong social element to it--I believe there are alot of kids who aren't quite sure what they believe; they are LDS by name only. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say that. I was once a "by name only" Believer. But I think they continue on in that for a long time, not wanting to ask questions or raise doubts or say that they've never gotten a strong testimony about the Book of Mormon because the social ramifications are big, especially for young people.

So the LDS church teaches a literal hell of 'everlasting burnings'? I didn't know this. I knew about the three "heavens", and about an outer darkness for sons of perdition, but was not aware of a fiery hell taught in the LDS church. But clearly, there are scriptures that mention it. Is this taught?

The book of Romans teaches that what God has revealed of Himself through creation gives all mankind an understanding that there is a God. From there, men begin to suppress the truth of Him by "their wickedness." They don't want to believe in God. But it says in Romans 1:19,20 "...since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." The native in the jungles of Africa who never had anyone preach the Gospel of Jesus to them can see the truth of God revealed in creation order and know that there is a God. I believe that since God knows the heart of man, the person who recognizes there is a God and longs to know Him, God will reveal Himself to them. God can make Himself known to the person whose heart desires to know Him. This summer my husband went on a missions trip to Uganda. God brought white people (my husband's group of about 35 people) from across the world to Africa, and my husband went hut to hut meeting people who had never before seen a white person. He told them about God. They were READY to hear that message. It's like they'd been hungering to know about a God they'd wondered about their whole life. When he told them that Jesus had died for their sins, most of them would fall on their knees on the dirt sobbing and through the interpreter would cry out, "Mister, what must I do to be saved? Please, tell me!" They were aware that their sin separated them from a holy God, and that He had died to take their sin upon Himself as a substitute so they might be saved from an eternity in Hell. Their rejoicing in the gift of salvation was beautiful. They would sing and dance and hug my husband and thank him for bringing this message to them. If a person wants to know God, He will reveal Himself to them. We don't have to worry about, "What about the person in a far away country who never got to hear? Is that fair for God to send them to Hell?" 1 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence."

He was referring to Thews who, while still a member of the church could be compared to an eagle--soaring above. Now that he has walked away from the church, he is "lowering himself" to the standards of the chickens (unenlightened, walking around in the darkness). I'm not sure if you noticed, but Thews felt mocked by the comment. Would you consider his comment to be kind?

Hemidakota, in reference to your comment about eagles pecking the dirt with chickens, I just thought I'd let you know that I found that to be incredibly arrogant. I have yet to encounter an attitude quite like that in my time on this website, and it's frankly appalling. You're writing that while in the Christian Beliefs forum, so my assumption is that you're aware that people of other denominations will see it--a disturbing display of pride. Christians generally believe that they are representatives of Christ, whether Protestant, Evangelical, Charismatic...your illustration of us pecking around in the dirt is demeaning and rude. I don't see much of an eagle in that.

Misshalfway, thanks for that! The thing this writing made me think of is a tendency to want to have the Spirit of God lead us--which is a good thing, something we SHOULD seek to have. But if we go to an extreme and say, "I'm waiting for a leading of the Spirit, a moving of the Spirit" (which often means some kind of "feeling"), that can be a dangerous thing. God never contradicts Himself. So when the Spirit moves, it will align with the written Word of God that we already have. I have to remember not to go to the extreme of waiting for a feeling from the Spirit to move me to action--I shouldn't act on the basis of this "feeling" alone. I always need to measure that feeling against the standard of God's Word--then I can move with confidence, knowing that He has spoken.

No, I don't. I believe there are overseers of a fold--my husband is one of those. But he isn't a proxy. If I'm understanding that term correctly, you believe that since Christ isn't here in bodily form, an appointed person (like the bishop of your church) would serve in His place, as a go-between, speaking to God on my behaf. I don't believe that is necessary today. I believe that when Jesus died, the need for priests (go-betweens) ceased, and I can go to God on my own. I can come to Him in prayer, through Jesus, and confess my sins, and that burden will be lifted because I have forgiveness. I don't need another man to do that for me.

Hemidakota, why do you believe that you need a bishop to remove the burden of your sin? I know there have been times that I lean on a brother or sister in Christ to share with in transparency: "I sinned and I feel such guilt"--but they themselves cannot remove my burden. Jesus removes the burden.

Solsalia, I really believe that if more people (including myself) would do what you just did in your post, we'd be more encouraged instead of discouraged in our marriages. Instead of choosing to focus on what is bad in the marriage, you found something to praise your husband for--the fact that he is very mechanical and can fix ANYTHING for you that you ask him to fix. I bet if you praised him (genuinely) every time he fixed something for you around the house or completed a project you'd asked him to do--told him how much you appreciate his work and LOVE the fact that YOUR hubby can fix anything, that you're so glad he's YOUR man, his heart would swell and he would feel so respected and admired. Even if right now, that's the one thing you can think of--it's awesome that you would keep your focus ON THAT positive thing. Any one of us can find SOMETHING negative about our spouse to fixate on. It can become unhealthy and create fighting and disappointment. You're choosing a better way. Thanks for the encouraging thought.

This post is actually for Benraines (did I spell that right?)--who was moderating on this thread. I don't know if you guys get thanked very much for doing your job, but I wanted to encourage you. As the daughter of a referee/umpire (guys who have tough jobs using their best judgement to make a call), I used to get defensive for my dad when someone would challenge his calls. He was REALLY good at what he did. I know not everyone sees every ball or strike the same. I just thought I should say thanks for moderating well. Thanks for sticking up for people when someone's coming down hard on them (even if they didn't mean too). Thanks for being willing to say, "That's enough, guys!" and use your position for good. :) Justice...it's a good thing. Referees and umpires love their jobs and get to a place where they don't even hear the heckling anymore--they're just doin' their job and making the best call they can. That's what I saw you doing. Thanks.

For a long time I struggled with things I'd done in the past, sins I'd committed, and asked forgiveness for, but still felt ashamed of. I would talk to my husband or friends and family about it and comment, "I know God has forgiven me, I just can't forgive myself." I now believe that to be an incorrect or faulty concept. As I understand the complete work of Christ for me on the Cross, I believe He died to take away my sin--but not just my sin, my shame as well. If it was a complete work, and I believe it absolutely was, then I have no part in it except to believe/trust. I cannot forgive myself and have it be any work that would have any cleansing effect. "Forgiving myself", I see now, is instead an effort I need to make to "let it go"--let it go and trust God that His work was complete. HE is my saviour. HE forgives me. I don't need to forgive myself. I just wanted to know if others see this as a semantics issue--just wording that really means "let it go", or if they consider it a "work" they need to do in order to be freed from sin.

So, the married person with children is able to see God more clearly than the unmarried one? Am I understanding you correctly? I believe that the miracle of having a baby proves to me that there is a God whose creative design and power is INCREDIBLE. But there is so much more to know about God than that. I believe that the union of marriage is a picture of Christ and His Church and that alone is such an amazingly cool thought and study--the parallels are awesome, convicting, incredible. But there is more to God than that. I believe that the greatest evidence of who He is is His Son Jesus. "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." This verse is talking about God the One and Only (God the Son, Jesus)--who is at the Father's side--HE has made God the Father known, because He walked on this earth. He taught us who the Father is. He is God. Look at Jesus, and you will learn of God, because He IS God, come down to earth in the FLESH.

I don't put my faith blindly in vague ideas of a hardley knoweable God. There is a great deal that He has revealed about Himself in the written Word of God. What I know of Him, I have learned through His Word, and also through learning about the life of Christ as He walked on the earth--as Jesus is God, made flesh, Emmanuel. He made it possible for us to know the Father as we begin to know the Son. The more we know Christ, the more we will know God. The discussion we were having on a previous thread dealt more with the doctrine of the Trinity (God, in three persons). I understand the doctrine as far as my human mind can comprehend it. I can't dumb it down--it is impossible to understand something supernatural--that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are Three persons, yet ONE GOD. Yet I believe it. It is beyond my understanding. It is mysterious. This part of God is mysterious. Isaiah 55:8and 9 say, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, " declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Scripture teaches that Gods thoughts and ways are higher than our thoughts and ways. People who claim to have Him figured out are displaying pride and arrogance. I believe that what we know of God are the things He has revealed to us. We are blessed to have Him reveal Himself to us. But He has not revealed everything.

I think humans when in the flesh will always have a desire to get as "close to sin" as they can without going "all the way" so they don't feel "guilty." In God's eyes, it's what's in the heart, not what came out of our mouths that matters--it all starts in the heart. I've heard so many substitutionary words here in my neck of the woods that I'd never heard before moving here. People know that the F-word is wrong, so they say "frick" or "frickin'" or "flippin'", or something like that. They have a whole other set of words that are substitutes for swear words because they know that to swear is wrong; to avoid it altogether isn't that much fun, either. So they get as close as they can without going over... We ALL do this, in most every area of our lives, when we're not walking with God by the power of His Spirit. His Spirit convicts us of what's not right. When I hear, "Oh G..." spoken by others, it hurts my heart. When I hear someone who loves the Lord talk like that, it REALLY hurts my heart, and it makes me angry that they're using His name flippantly. I think we can tell when someone is calling aloud to Him, and when someone is simply using it in vain in such a careless way.

What is the Gospel, if you had to explain it in a brief paragraph?

Elohel, I just wanted to say one thing about the comments you made about God and Him being worshipped. You said -He doesn't have an ego problem, -He doesn't have some odd need for us to worship Him, -it's not our purpose to worship Him, -and He can get along just fine without our worship. There is a story in the Bible in the gospel of Mark about a woman who came into a home (Simon's) where Jesus was having supper and took a very expensive/precious bottle of perfume and broke it and poured it on Jesus' head. People who were there who saw it were angry at the waste of it. They judged her and said if she was just going to dump it out she could've just sold it and given the money to the poor. Jesus told them to leave her alone. "Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me. for ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always. She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying. Verily I say unto yo u, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her." Mark 14:6-9 I think this is such a beautiful picture of worship. (showing God how much He is WORTH). Does He have an ego problem? No. Did he have an odd need to be worshipped? No. Was it her purpose to worship Him and bring Him glory? Yes. And she would from then on be honored world-wide because she did what she could to honor her savior before His death. She was paying Him honor and respect. Can He get along just fine without it? OF couse. He's all-sufficient. He's God. But He loves to hear our praise. And He deserves our praise.

Lstinthewrld, Which of the concepts that you say "may have held up 2000 years ago" don't hold up in the present day? Which concepts do you think held up back then? any of them?

Snow, we teach the doctrine of the Trinity even to our children. Truth is truth, and if an adult can know the truths of God, than a child can know the truths of God. I will never claim to understand it fully--it is unfathomable. It's a "God-thing," beyond our complete understanding. What we CAN understand is what has been revealed in God's word. When you say to Maureen, "Come on, Maureen, certainly you know what the Trinity is...it is the elementary meaning of the trinity: Three Hypostases in one Ousia." I am in my thirties and I wouldn't have the foggiest notion what you're talking about. What the heck is an ousia? How about we just speak in common language? How about we just come down to earth a bit? The Trinity is complicated enough! :) But it seems like you're trying to talk down to others when you act like, "Come now, of course you know what the Trinity is. I'm asking for the elementary meaning. The miggintoot of the floopalune. Everyone knows that. It's the constitualine theory of the hydroluxe basilar root that's at stake!!"

Anatess, I understand that you disagree with my faith. I respect that. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "your salvation hinges on something you are not expected to understand..." I'm not Catholic or LDS; but I WILL explain to you, just so you know for SURE what my salvation hinges on: it hinges on Christ alone and what He has done for me on the Cross. The gospel message is what my salvation hinges on: that Christ died for me, because I am a sinner and was separated from a Holy God because of my sin. He took my sin and shame upon Himself and became my substitute. In my sin, my punishment should've been death. But Christ took my punishment for me. He died in my place, was buried and then rose again by the power of God after three days! My salvation hinges on my faith in that--my HEART belief, not just head-belief--my faith that Jesus died for my sins. Romans 10:9,10 "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Anatess, You said that the beauty of LDS is that it simplifies the "great mystery" of God. I'm not necessarily seeking to simplify Him. I know He cannot be simplified. He's God! The Bible teaches that He's beyond my understanding. The great mystery of Him, of the three in one is just as beautiful to me as the simplified version is to you. Your illustration of the three Bush men might help you understand God as YOU see Him, but it doesn't do God justice as I view Him as taught Biblically. The three Bush's cannot read one another's minds--they have no idea what one another is thinking. The three persons of the Godhead are ONE in every aspect, yet three. You asked me to explain what that meant (substance, form...what?)--it means they are One God in three persons. I already explained it as far as my human mind can comprehend it: God the Father, who is spirit; Jesus, who is also God, but became man when he was born of a virgin; and the Holy Spirit who is God but obviously Spirit and dwells inside the believer. They each have different roles, but they are all one God. I don't know how that is, but it is. I believe that scripture teaches it. My faith allows me to believe what my mind can't fully comprehend and my eyes can't see.

Justice, I've already posted verses showing an example of Jesus being raised from the dead by the power of God--one God, in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). I gave verses to show that each member of the Godhead was involved in raising Jesus from the dead. But I believe that scripture teaches that it was God who raised Him from the dead. What were your thoughts on that post?

I said earlier that there are verses in the Book of Mormon that would seem to support a Trinitarian view--without someone inserting words into it such as: "one in purpose". Verses like: Alma 11:44 "...every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil." 2 Nephi 31:21 "...And now, behold, this is hte doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." Bytebear, you said "They aren't separate Gods. They are one God." I found this quote from Joseph Smith and wanted to know what you thought of it. "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three gods." (Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith p.370)

Does anyone know of a passage in the Book of Mormon or the Bible where it says the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate Gods that are perfectly united only in purpose? (I know there are verses like the ones in John that talk about the Father and the Son being united in purpose, but they never say they're separate Gods).

Justice, the scripture you noted in John 17 I believe Jesus is talking about His desire for people who believe to be one with Him in unity, just as He and the Father are unified. It was a prayer for those who would believe in Him. He wanted them to be united like He and the Father are united. The Holy Spirit dwelled in Him while he was on earth and He had perfect fellowship with His Father. He wanted that for believers too, and we can have that! There's nothing in that passage, though, about Jesus and the Father being two separate personages or Gods that are only united in purpose. Jesus wanted us to be with Him where He is and to see the glory of Heaven (the glory He had before the foundation of the world)v.5. I can't know if, when He said "be with me where I am" He was referring to what He could see as an all-knowing God. He could see the glories of Heaven from where he was on earth! He is GOD, while man! But He said 'be with me where I am and see my glory.' He seems to be referring to His desire for them to be with Him in the glory of Heaven--to see eternal life. But again, I don't see how this applies to your point about being one in purpose, and them being separate personages.

As for some supportive verses on the Trinity, I'll give just an example of the way the Trinity works its way into scripture. When you look at Jesus being raised from the dead, who do you believe raised Him from the dead? I believe God raised Him from the dead. God (one) has three persons (Father, son, and Holy Spirit. He is ONE God in three persons. Three persons in ONE. And there is scripture to support this. 1) God raised Jesus from the dead: Acts 4:10 " be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD--even by him doth this man stand here before you whole." 2) Jesus raised Jesus from the dead (because He is God)--John 2:19-21 "Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.' Then said the Jews, 'Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?' But He spake of the temple of His body." 3) The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, because He is God--Romans 8:11 "But if the SPIRIT OF HIM THAT RAISED UP JESUS FROM THE DEAD dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." [CAPS mine] There are examples like this woven through the scriptures that speak to the doctrine of the Trinity.